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So Is all this stuf I'm hearing about Mobil 1 true? I used to bash on Castrol Syntec all the time because it wasn't a true synthetic, and Castrol was calling it a synthetic. Well Mobil got upset over this and said that it's unfair they get to do that while Mobil was actually selling real synthetic oil. Well Mobil took Castrol to court over it and lost. Now I hear Mobil is doing EXACTLY what they where complaining about in the first place and their oil is not truly synthetic anymore, or was it never truly synthetic? I want to hear what you think.
Here is the link. I First heard about it from my friend whi is a member of that board.
I guess I'll have to find a place that sells Amsoil now. I've heard this place 2 minutes from my house sells it, I hope so!
--
My 91 245
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posted by
someone claiming to be ringlee
on
Thu May 9 15:35 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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Here's an email from Mobil:
"Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic is a blend of alkylated naphthalene (Group V), PAO (Group IV) and ester (Group V). The alkylated naphthalene is for improved deposit control. " There does not appear to be any group III or VHVI oil in the package. Their "Supersyn" is an antiwear additive, not a base oil, added to meet SL standards. All the specs for pour point, etc. seem not to have changed materially. Some of the confusion on the Ford Probe board includes idiots who confuse celsius with fahrenheit for pour points.
The controversy seems to be over the Mobil 1 Blend, which is indeed a blend of dino oil and unspecified synthetics, as well as the growing use of Group III VHVI oils in "synthetic" packages now that the term synthetic has been legally extended to include such oils. Nobody has reliably accused Mobil of using VHVIs, unlike Castrol. VHVI oils are very good with one exception, a high pour point, which is typically lowered with pour point depressants. Under all conditions, a Group III will outperform a similar mineral oil; the only question is value for the money invested.
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Have you looked into any details of Castrol's synthetic [sic] blend? I can't find anything besides the usual "offers the best engine protection on the market" information. It seems that all oils offer that...
I'm curious because I like Castrol's dino oil very much. It looks like the base stock of Castrol GTX is among the best, but their synthetic base stock is perhaps a little better. If the blend is better enough then for the small jump in price maybe it would be worth it to me. I'm not too worried about .50/qt, but for full, real, off the shelf synthetic I'd rather just have Mobil 1, as I've used it for a long time in different cars. Just not in the last year. So far I started using Pennzoil's synthetic blend but it looks like the Castrol base stocks have a lower ash content. I don't know if Pennzoil is a true synthetic or not.
--
Chris Herbst
1992 945, 71k
independent volvo shop tech
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posted by
someone claiming to be ringlee
on
Fri May 10 15:12 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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I suspect that the Castrol blend is another Group III synthetic (just like Syntec) with dino oil. It's not clear what is in Mobil Drive Clean Blend (I may send them an email to find out.)
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Thank you; I kind of had a feeling that might be the case with the Syntec blend. Interestingly the Castrol website says that it's "specially blended" (who knows) and that it isn't just a Syntec/GTX mix.
If you do send Mobil an email, I'd be very interested to find out what they're putting in the drive clean blend. I'm really just learning about the differences of oil. I've been eyeing that product too, with the other synthetic blends.
--
Chris Herbst
1992 945, 71k
self-proclaimed expert
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What an interesting topic! I checked out the links and the links to the links, and it hardly appears that Mobil is selling out for monetary gain. I mean they take a mineral oil product, heat it to 700 degrees at extremely high pressures and hydrogenate it fully using very sophisticated equipment, and they end up with a synthesized fluid that enhances the overall product. All synthetic products, all chemicals originate in natural sources, so I don't see what people mean by it's not a "pure" synthetic anymore. Empirically speaking, I recently switched from Valvoline Durablend to Mobil 1, with much fear and trepidation, I might add, and not only did my engine seem to run better, but I am no longer consuming oil like I was before in my turbo 940. So to me, at least it sounds like it's just as good as any other synthetic oil. My point is simply this, just because the source material for the hydrocracked fluid is crude oil, doesn't make the end product any less synthetic. It is still a man made product. The lawsuit business sounds more like the suit that the two big pizza companies had a few years ago regarding who had the freshest ingredients. Of course, Mobil 1 doesn't want split it's market share with anyone else, but if in the course of the suit they learn a way to make their product better, ..... why not?
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From an engineer "wonk" site. Lengthy. Hope it answers your specific as well as overall questions.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?sqid=8174&spid=89&newpid=89&CFID=62059385&CFTOKEN=16553488
I can't speak of the current Mobil 1, however, when it first came out touting a 100K interval between changes, a friend of mine decided to give them a reality check. He was an Army aviator stationed at an aircraft maintenance facility.
He drained his paraffin based oil from his car, flushed the engine, got a new filter, and added fresh Mobil 1. The car was a 10 year old Datsun wagon daily beater.
He took a sample of the Mobil 1 from the original container and ran it through the shop spectrometer used for oil analysis of military helocopters. The calibration was current.
10K miles later he took a sample from the Datsun via the dipstick tube and ran that through the same spectrometer. Calibration still current.
The two spectrographs were virtually identical!!
Guess the joke was on him!
Regards,
David
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nmi
--
Warren Bain - '86 744Ti M46 >290Kmi, '99 V70Glt > 45K mi, '96 965 >100Kmi Wifemobile near Manassas Va.. Check the 700/900 FAQ via the 'features' pull down menu.
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I've been reading a lot more on it and I guess I've over reacted to what people have been saying. Still looks like it's a great oil and I can continue to be excited about finding 5 quart bottles of Mobil 1 10-W30 for 17.00 at wal-mart. Even though I hate that store soooo much.
--
My 91 245
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Why do you hate Wal Mart, Americas biggest retailer? It is place where I can find so many products and get them during one trip, no need to run all over looking for this and that. I hate "shopping" which to me means going into a store with no idea what one wants to buy or running from store to store trying to save .15 on a 6 pack of toilet paper. My time is more vauable than that. Even if I may wait 5 or 10 minutes in line that's better than having to go to 3 more stores. I don't look for nor do I expect knowledgeable sales clerks at such a store because I know what I want.
I love my Saturdays and Sundays.
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I just cant see blowing all that money on an oil when I am using it in an engine with 200k. The clearances are loose enough not to have any benefit from the friction reducing properties of the synthetic.
However, I can see using a 100% synthetic on turbo equiped cars. Back in the early 70's we used special Mobil synthetic oil in our airplane turboprops. It had far superior properties when exposed to high heat and shaft rpm(25,000).
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what state are you in? I keep hearing talk of $17 dollar 6 packs and 5 quart mobil 1 deals. This seems to be my white whale, the best I can do at walmart (Northlake, IL just west of Chicago) is $26 for 6 pack case. What gives.
Mike
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I think I recall seeing it a few days ago at the Gurnee store, which boasts more white whales per capita than any other store in Chicagoland.
--
Chris Herbst
1992 945, 71k
Volvo shop tech
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posted by
someone claiming to be a stand up user of stand up urinals
on
Thu May 9 00:47 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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It is true that Mobil is synthetic oil, but they do use the lowest cost man made oily substances and additives. It is NOT the best synthetic oil, but is better than petroleum based oils.
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I'm not sure I've seen you say what IS a good oil, although you seem to have a strong opinion on oils. Castrol is junk. Mobil 1 isn't the best synthetic.
So why don't you offer suggestions on what is a good oil? Obviously there has to be a decent one.
--
Chris Herbst
1992 945, 71k
Volvo shop tech
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What is your preference on both synthetic and petroleum based oils? For the record, I am running Chevron in the kid's 744T and the LandCruiser, while both the wife's 86 745T and my 87 745T are using Amsoil 10W-30. The Chevron is bought at Costco because it is cheap, and the Amsoil is bought at GI Joe's because I don't have to deal with a multi-level marketing organization when I buy there.
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I usually only use Castrol GTX 10w30, but recently I've been using Pennzoil synthetic blend (similar to the old PZL Turbo from what I can discern). I'm just experimenting to see if it cleans up the engine on the car I just bought. It's very clean already, but not as clean as my engines usually are.
I'm not sure what I'm going to use next. I was originally using Mobil 1 for a very long time, and then I started driving massive (like 50k/year) miles. At 50 thou per year, synthetic oil gets expensive. I'm not a fan of extended drain intervals personally, so I was changing Mobil 1 out at 3k. That's pricey. Then I started using Delo or Rotella in the summers, but I finally read that they had enough sulfur content that they wouldn't be compatible with catalytic converters. ALthough I never had any problems in that area.
I found a decent oil comparison, but it IS part of an Amsoil site so I'm not sure if it's very independent. It looks like Castrol Syntec blend is a good candidate for my own car, although I might go to 100% synthetic because it still only has 70k on it and I'd like to have it for several years. I know it isn't an actual synthetic oil but it is a very pure oil... from what I can tell.
Since I'm anything but an oil expert (I only know what I read and what I hear) I'm wondering what would be a good oil for me. I have mixed trips and miles. This week I'll be lucky to drive 100 miles. Next week I could drive 500.
The issue for me is, I've heard all sorts of mixed reviews on a lot of different oils. Quaker state causes sludge. Pennzoil sucks. Castrol is crap. The only thing I have heard is that Mobil 1 is the best synthetic on the shelf. But Amsoil is the best. The thing is, oil debates seem to always degrade into a "I'm right, you're wrong" kind of situation... I'm just looking for input.
I have to say that I'm of the opinion that one will have good luck with almost any oil, if a good service schedule is followed, under average conditions.
--
Chris Herbst
1992 945, 71k
Volvo shop tech
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AMSOIL has been recommending extended drains (non-turbo) for 30 years now. These recommendations have been based on oil analysis and millions of road miles. I suspect that had the claims been untrue, the company would have folded more than a few years ago.
I've been running (and selling) AMSOIL for 25 years now. I've done oil analysis and proven to myself that the claims are valid. I use 0W-30 in 2 Saab turbo, 1 Volvo turbo, and one Dodge van. I daughter uses it in a Saab turbo, 1 daughter in a Volvo turbo, and the third daughter in a Subaru Outback.
If you can accept the extended drain interval, AMSOIL becomes the least expensive oil to use. If it still gives you pause, do some oil analysis for yourself. I suspect that you would find you were throwing away good Mobil 1 at 3,000 miles.
As a side note, any of the oil comparisons that AMSOIL publishes have been validated by outside labs, using standardized tests. Not a single other manufacturer/refiner/blender has ever claimed the published info to be inaccurate---though they have claimed they were inapplicable.
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Thanks, that was my concern.
The problem I had been having was what you said in your other reply, that the oil companies' sales pitch is basically "we're the best because... WE ARE!"
That isn't exactly what I'm looking for, if you get my drift. So I'll use what I've found. Tech data is there sometimes, but you have to sift through some useless data to find it. As I'm sure you know.
--
Chris Herbst
1992 945, 71k
independent volvo shop tech
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Thanks for the input. I am not that great on the extended oil changes touted for the synthetics. Petroleum based oil changed at 3500 miles gives great lubrication, just ask anyone who does engine work (as I know you do). The bore condition on an engine with over 100,000 miles and frequent oil changes is amazing.
As to the engine in your car and cleaning up the color of the oil, I have my doubts. The blackness in oil is caused by carbon particles in suspension. The carbon gets into the oil by getting past the rings. In my limited experience with Volvo factory bore finish, the blocks are so hard that the hone marks stay visible for an easy 200,000 miles with frequent oil changes. The hone marks constitute surface imperfections which combustion chamber contents lodge in. These hone marks thus allow the combustion chamber contents to get past the rings and into the crankcase oil. In summation, the color of the engine oil in your car is largely dependant on the bore finish and ring fit. I haven't seen engine oil dissolve the old black depostits in some engines, only a hot tank or lots of wire brushing will do that.
To digress, the old engine in my airplane had cylinder wall corrosion from lack of use for a one year period before I bought the airplane. Not only did that engine use lots of oil, the oil turned black in only a few hours of use. The new engine has good bores which are well broken in. This combined with a new design of piston rings and increased ring tension gives very low oil consumption, something like 1 quart for every 15 to 20 hours of use. The oil stays quite gold for a long time. This is incredibly low oil use for an air cooled engine of 470 cubic inches.
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Thanks, John. That was a really good explanation.
The interesting thing (if you have a little more time) is that I haven't really seen the inside of a whole ton of engines, since I'm mostly working on Volvos (and Toyotas), and most of the "engine" work takes place on things that are bolted TO the engine, rather than inside it. I've done my share of engine swaps and head gaskets, valve work, and whatnot, but really the typical problems aren't internal ones.
Since you've mentioned the bore finish, though, I did notice that two B230 engines I had apart within a very short period of time from one another, had almost identical-appearing bores. One had 87k, one had 150k. I was actually surprised at that.
With the inside of the engine, I was only actually referring to the inside of the valve cover, since it's easy to check and see very frequently. The current car I drive has sort of a reddish hue to the bearing caps, but no visible sludge or deposits save for the surface color. I've seen some very bad sludge engines before but this isn't one. My first Castrol oil change got dirty faster than this oil change has. Most of my cars end up with oil that looks like it could be used again, even after 3000 miles. I don't know why that is, but it's almost hard to see on the stick after 3k. After that (at least with dino oil) it seems to get dirty more rapidly.
Since I get to compare a lot of similar engines, I've noticed that some have almost a chalky sludge all over the bearing caps and inside of the valve cover. While others (one recently was absolutely NEW looking with 150k, head never worked on) are totally clean, looking like they hàve very few miles on them at all. And then there are a few like mine (and I noticed, my dad's car) that have a reddish tint to them, but aren't necessarily sludge engines.
In marine diesels (any diesels really) the oil is dirty looking within a few minutes of running. Like your aircraft engine, it's not directly related to hours of running, but more of the contaminants passed along through the combustion chamber. Unlike your 470cid engine, however, a lot of the diesels of that size that I've seen suck oil enough to not have to change it very much; it practically changes itself.
--
Chris Herbst
1992 945, 71k
independent volvo shop tech
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posted by
someone claiming to be Terrible Tom
on
Wed May 8 16:56 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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Well they just introduced their new "Super Syn". I don't know what makes it so super, but I have heard nothing negative about it.
I also hate WalMart with a stinking passion, but I keep going there hoping to find this mythical 5 quart deal that Ringlee has been barking about for years..... and now you too. I've never found it.
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They come and go every spring and fall. One big shipment to the store, and that's it for a while.
BTW, the 5-quart is the previous oil, not the new super-syn, which to me, doesn't matter. It already exceeds the factory spec.
Last I checked (2 days ago), City of Industry still has a pile (literally, in the aisle). I only picked up 2 more bottles, as the only one that I put it in is the '91. It'll last me until at least next year, so.
-- Kane
--
Blossom II - '91 745Ti/M46 ... Bubbles - '74 144GL/BW35 ... Buttercup - '86 245GL/AW70 ... The Wayback Machine - '64 P220/M40
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posted by
someone claiming to be Terrible Tom
on
Fri May 10 03:45 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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Location could be the problem. Even though I am minutes from the Panorama City Store I won't go there. One needs a personal security contingent to shop there and a full decontamination washdown afterwards. 80% of the customers and workers there couldn't pass for human. So, we go all the way out to Porter Ranch where it is a little nicer, but slowly decaying.
Ok, this one in Industry, is that the one just north of the 60 fwy at like, Gale Avenue? It is a bit of a haul, but what the heck if they have cheap Mobil One. If you have seen it there recently, I'll make the drive.
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Yeah, off Azusa. If you want, email me how many jugs and in what grade(s) (0-30, 10-30, 15-50, IIRC), and I should be able to pick it up for you tomorrow. I pass right by it on my way to work, and it's prolly easier for me to get it than for you to make the trek and find nothing.
-- Kane ... much like the 99 Cents Only store, what you see today might not be there tomorrow.
--
Blossom II - '91 745Ti/M46 ... Bubbles - '74 144GL/BW35 ... Buttercup - '86 245GL/AW70 ... The Wayback Machine - '64 P220/M40
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posted by
someone claiming to be ringlee
on
Thu May 9 05:02 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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Bark, bark, bark. For the record, just so skeptics such as TT don't think I'm smoking Castrol, I recently bought the following oils at various Walmarts in Iowa:
-Mobil 1 0W-30 one-quart putup: Ankeny IA season closeout at $3 per quart (bought their entire stock of ten quarts)
-Mobil 1 5W-30 one-quart putup: Cedar Rapids IA, regular price $3.79 (cheap!)
-Mobil 1 5W and 10W-30 five-quart putup: Ames and Des Moines, IA regular price on special putups (offered about thrice per year) $17.87
-Mobil 1 5/10W-30 regular price $4.49 per quart.
Walmart gives some pricing flexibility to local managers, since I've seen Mobil 1 oils at all price points from about $3.79 up to $4.89 per quart. When this stuff goes on sale at Walmart, it disappears immediately.
KMart closed out some 0W-30 for $3.49 per quart as well and they sometimes have unadvertised specials on Mobil 1.
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Do you, or anyone, know of a site, sites, or boards, that have a GOOD comparison of oils?
I've found a few, but mostly they're propaganda pages, which is not exactly what I'm looking for.
--
Chris Herbst
1992 945, 71k
Volvo shop tech
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There have been references to some oil comparison stuff, but the major one I've seen was based on the specs from about 8 years ago, and things have changed.
If you take some time, you can get some of the data from various oil company sites and do some comparison. However, most of them only publish limited technical information. Hey, oil is oil--open the top, pour it in and drive!!!
But if Arnie's granddaddy used it, it must be good!
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Sounds like FUD to me...
Apparently some people aren't aware that motor oil is composed of (the horror!!!)HYDROCARBONS!!!
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posted by
someone claiming to be a stand up user of stand up urinals
on
Thu May 9 00:48 CST 2002 [ RELATED]
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you have a lot riding on those hydrocarbons....and IT does matter which ones are in your crankcase.
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