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timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

Hi,

I asked this question before and I am still struggling with it. Any comment would be appreciated.

My '91 240 (65,000 miles) runs OK not great. I know this because my other 91' 240 (180,000 miles) runs really well.

My car gets sluggish when it goes up the hill or when I press gas pedal hard on the flat road. The car does not pick up speed fast enough and makes sound as if some marbles were rolling on the wooden floor. In old days, when this kind of situation happened on any car, the mechanic would usually tell me that I need tune up.

But I did change my spark plugs. I cleaned the throttle valve not too long ago. I suspected then maybe the fuel filter needs change. So this week I changed the fuel filter. The mechanic showed me that the fuel filter was dirty.

However, the sluggishness did not improve. The mechanic several months ago mentioned something about timing adjustment. However, some of you told me that there is no such thing as timing adjustment needed on this car.

Now I am suspecting Air Mass Meter, blindly. Or there may be some sort of air leak somewhere. Crank position sensor? The self diagnostics does not pick up any issue.

Thank you for your comments in advance.











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    Latest Update 200

    Reporting you as follows..

    I placed an order for timing belt kit for timing belt check up with my mechanic on my car problem.

    This morning, only to check and just because it is easy to do, I replaced the AMM on this car with the extra AMM I had. I was not even sure whether this reserve AMM was a good one but I knew for sure that it had a different performance characteristic.

    Then something good happened.

    - The engine was suddenly making a healthy sound; not as much noisy
    - picked up speed normally, quick when I put on accelerator
    - Pressing the overdrive button, picked up speed as well

    So it seems that the faulty AMM may have been the reason. But I will keep you informed if anything changed. (I will be diligently replacing air box thermostat which might have affected my AMMs on my 240 cars. On my other 240, once in a while problem of car engine stalling disappeared when I replaced AMM.)

    Thanks everyone for comments!!









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      Latest Update 200

      Glad to hear your car is running right again.

      I just scanned the various posts... Some good advice given.

      For what it's worth, I'd say find a new mechanic. Your mechanic should have found the bad AMM problem. Plus this, "He mentioned that he may have to adjust timing." Anybody who knows late model 240's knows you cannot adjust the timing...

      Your mechanic didn't fix the problem you did.

      Oh, and I second the injector cleaning. It does help. If you can live with your car inoperable for a week you can just send in your original injectors. FYI: It can be a pain to push the injectors back in with new O-rings, but make sure they seal well.

      Good luck.

      Bert








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      Latest Update 200

      haveyou tried cleaning the fuel injectors & replacing the O rings??
      I did it on mine & used a cheap set from the junkyard& sent them out for $50 total,,,replaced them & its has been running smooth ever since.








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    timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

    Realizing that there is "more to the story"...

    If: Ignition parts are all verifiably clean and in good condition

    If: Throttle is clean

    If: ECU's are all working equally after swapping between identical happy and not-happy cars...

    If: Timing belt proves to be on the correct tooth (I have seen good ones jump one or 2 due to deteriorating timing covers dropping bits into the gears)

    I would look at 2 things:

    Inlet air hose from Air Mass Meter to throttle body- cracks do develop and sometimes only open up when engine moves around on its mounts (i.e. under acceleration)

    Or Fuel pressure regulator. The entire mixture depends on this functioning correctly. Often they make the engine too rich or hard to start but other failure modes are possible. It's 20+ years old. Good replacement part to throw at it. As always, check the vacuum line for gasoline in the line- that would be proof of failure.

    --Rob










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      timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

      Thanks, Rob.

      I checked the fuel pressure regulator hose. No smell of gas leak. (just a brief smell and clean). I will check that accordion hose (from AMM to throttle.)

      - Jay -








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    timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

    Did you try swapping the ECU from the car that runs great? The other 91?

    Another cause of pinging is a hot running engine. Any overheating?








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      timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

      Guys'n'gals,

      This question is, as the OP says, a re-post of an unsolved problem. Much thought has already gone into it. The possibility of adjusting the base idle ignition timing on EZK is what kept me from claiming it can't be done -- instead saying it wasn't meant to be adjusted. And it was that original thread, claiming to be beginner where I first learned of the unused ICU pins suspected of being available for octane adjustment.

      So, I suspect in the intervening time, all sorts of swaps and ignition timing checks have been made.
      --
      Art Benstein near Baltimore

      Two vultures board an airplane, each carrying two dead raccoons. The stewardess looks at them and says: "I'm sorry, gentlemen, only one carrion allowed per passenger."








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        timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

        Did not know there was a backstory to this thread. So I went back and read it. Learned that the OP has two California cars, each with the 556 ecu.

        Learned that he picked up two junkyard 556s. And that his mechanic installed one of them, even demoed the fix.

        Nowhere in there did the OP mention that he took the 556 out of the good car and tried it in the bad car. Maybe he did. But if he didn't, I know of no better way to identify or eliminate the ecu as the culprit.








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          timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

          Thank you for your comments.

          I just now tested what you mentioned. I took the ECU (556) out of the good car and put it into the car with pinning issues. Same results. I even tested my reserve ECU (556). Thus it appears that all my ECUs are working fine.








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            Pinging 200 1991

            If pinging is the symptom, perhaps you should be swapping the ignition controller. That's logic, although experience says those things never go bad.
            If the fuel system (mixture) was the cause of pinging so repeatable the ICU cannot compensate, codes and a check engine light would certainly result. In other words, if you split the AMM hose or had a faulty fuel pressure regulator on your 91, the OBD in the fuel side would alert you to that long before pinging would result.


            --
            Art Benstein near Baltimore

            Since it's the early worm that gets eaten by the bird, sleep late.








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              Pinging 200 1991

              Thanks, Art.

              Today I checked the fuel pressure regulator. I took out the vacuum hose and tried to smell for gas. There was only a brief smell of gas and no more. It was clean.

              Just to recap what happened, last year around this time, it stopped on highway. I had it towed to the mechanic. Mechanic replaced a few things, one of which may be ignition coil. Then he determined the ECU was dead. I went to the junk yard and picked one ECU.

              Then the car was working but was not running well, making noise. I took it to the mechanic a few weeks later. He determined that noise was coming from intake manifold. So he replaced the intake manifold gasket (4) and one below (header gasket?). The car was much better but still not powerful enough. (Still not exactly healthy engine sound at idle.)He mentioned that he may have to adjust timing. He also said cause may be dirty fuel filter, etc.

              It was not that bad. so I kept driving. It is drivable except when it goes up the hill, it gets weak. When I used the 3rd gear (i.e. no overdrive), the car seemed burdened and does not accelerate much. Still the car manages San Francisco hills but barely.

              Two weeks ago, I replaced the fuel filter, which was really dirty. It did not improve condition, however.








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                Pinging 200 1991

                Hello,

                In case anyone may be interested, I am posting the following status.

                Recently I replaced the timing belt. My 1991 240 was pinging when I step on the accelerator hard and was sluggish at 60MPH on freeway. The many comments that I received from the Brickboard were that my timing belt may be misaligned. So I was hopeful that this would fix.

                Well the symptom stayed the same. No change. My mechanic was somewhat apologetic and told me to add fuel injector cleaners. I did and performance is somewhat better but still pinging on sudden acceleration and sluggish at 60 MPH.

                I can drive this car fine most of the time. So I really do not have complaints. (I am now wondering if ECU has to be precisely matched to the car. I checked this by changing ECU with my other '91 240 that I have. That car drives awesome with ECU from this car.)

                By the way, my temperature gauge on display was always low, just FYI. My car has been driving OK so I assume that the temperature display is broken and not temperature control.

                Thanks!








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                  Pinging 200 1991

                  What is the model number of the suspected ECU?
                  Dan








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                    Pinging 200 1991


                    Hi Dan,

                    The bad one in the car was (-556). When the ECU was dead, the car lost power suddenly in the freeway and had to a gradual stop and was towed away.

                    So I picked another one -556 from the Junk Yard and put it in to this car. This -556 worked fine in my other Volvo 240. But it is pinging in this 240.


                    However, this web site shows that it may be -561. So maybe I should look for -561.


                    http://www.nuceng.ca/bill/volvo/database/ecu.htm


                    Jay








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                      Pinging 200 1991

                      It does not make sense that it works fine in one car but not another, are both EGR equipped engines. The 933 or 946 are updated ECU's that control EGR, the 561 or 951 do not control EGR.
                      Dan








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    timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

    Thank you everyone for the replies.

    This happened when my ECU failed a year ago. Then I went to the junk yard and picked up ECUs (2 of them).

    I wanted to confirm that I put in the right ECU. So just now I called the Volvo dealer. Volvo told me that my correct ECU is:

    - part number 5003780 if I have EGR
    - part number 5003894 if I do not have EGR.

    How can I tell whether I have EGR or not?

    On the car, my ECU label says:
    JETRONIC
    91466 P01
    Bosch
    0 280 000 933
    made in spain
    AJ AJ

    I have one extra
    JETRONIC
    3501687
    Bosch
    0 280 000 556
    Made in germany
    3 501 687

    For your information, I also tried to put in fuel injector cleaner but did not change anything.


    According to the record, timing belt was changed at 40,000 miles in 2008. I bought the about 2 years ago. Now the car has 65,000 miles.

    Thanks again. After checking whether I have a correct ECU, then I plan to take the car to mechanic for timing belt check. Will let you know.












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      timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

      Both of these ECU's will control the EGR valve if your engine has one. Look for some extra plumbing on the exhaust header,
      Dan








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        timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

        Thanks. I will check. I learned that EGR stands for Exhaust Gas Recirculation. Since I am in CA, it is likely both of my '91 240s have EGR.








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    timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

    It sure sounds like the Timing is off. That would be from the Belt being off a tooth. The marble sound is Ignition Pinging (knocking).

    Did you recently have the Timing Belt changed on this car? It's kind of easy for the Tensioner to take up on the Cam sprocket side and move it a tooth.

    I'm not sure the knock sensor would even come in to play if you are running on regular gas and the Timing Belt was on correctly.

    --
    '75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/








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      timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

      Thanks for asking. As I mentioned, the timing belt was changed in 2008 (40,000 miles). I bought it two years ago. Now it has 65,000 miles. I plan to check timing belt with the mechanic.








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        timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

        only 25K miles since teh last change BUT if the Seals are leaking (Cam,Crank, intermediate) then the belt would degrade quicker. If the tensioner didn't pull the belt all that tight during the Install then a little stetching of the belt may have let it jump a tooth.
        --
        '75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/








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          timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

          Thanks. There appears to be no leak on this car whatsoever. However, I am placing an order for the belt kit just in case the mechanic tells me that timing belt needs replacement.








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            timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

            Your earlier post says the belt now has 25K on it. With no major oil leaks it is probably OK. But if the required post-install tensioner adjustment at 600 miles wasn't done 25K ago, normal early life belt stretch may have caused it to finally jump a tooth or two.

            My son experienced this on sudden decelleration when he almost missed a thruway exit. The belt jumped so many teeth it had to be towed. As I recall, he just retimed it.


            --
            Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.








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              timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

              Thanks. Most likely the previous owner did not do that. He rarely drove the car and I even got a cover for the car.








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    timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200

    If it's making that clattering (marble on floor sound) when you're giving it gas under load, that indicates "pinging". I suspect the timing may be too far advanced (if not ECU controlled), and/or the fuel quality/octaine is too low. You could have dirty fuel injectors, a clogged or failing cat (as suggested already), failing O2 sensor, or your ECU is on the fritz.

    To start, I would run some fuel injector cleaner through it and put a good tank of high octane gas as well, see if that changes things.








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    timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200 1991

    Too easy to assume you mean ignition timing. Like Ken's reply guesses, your 91's ignition timing is not intended to be adjusted.

    But, valve timing will give you the same result if one cog out of time. I bought a 91 similarly sluggish and found the belt was one tooth off.

    The easiest way to check is by pulling the upper timing belt cover and rotating the crank using a 15/16" socket until the cam sprocket mark lines up with the reference. Then look at the timing mark on the crank pulley. If not lined up, you've got some more work to do regardless of the reason.
    --
    Art Benstein near Baltimore

    I'm not into working out. My philosophy: No pain; no pain.








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      timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200 1991

      Oops, I missed the pinging symptom in your OP. Certainly your tech should be at least checking the timing even if she can't adjust it. The unusually low mileage makes me wonder if this car was a seldom-used to church on Sunday car full of carbon deposits. Still, the knock sensor should be keeping it from reaching the pinging advance.
      --
      Art Benstein near Baltimore

      You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive.








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        timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200 1991

        Except for Art's mention of the knock sensor no one else has brought it up. It is possible it is defective and not compensating for the octane fuel you're using. Among other things you can do is try the highest octane fuel available. Art also mentioned carbon deposits - while I've almost never seen heavy deposits in a Volvo engine it can happen. When I've come across that situation I have successfully fed water (small amount slowly inducted through a vacuum connection at higher than idle speed). That process takes patience -- too much water at one time can cause hydro lock in the cylinders--water will not compress--and could lead to bent connecting rods.
        I devised a water injection system when I built a very high compression B18 years ago--before 10 percent alcohol was common in gas. When I switched all my high performance parts to a B20 I found the pistons clean enough to eat off -- although I wasn't tempted to do that. -- Dave








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          timing adjustment needed on my volvo 240? 200 1991

          Thanks, Art and Dave. I will mention about valve timing to my mechanic when I have him check my car and will try the highest octane gas. (I did try fuel injector cleaner before.)








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    It's possible that you cannot adjust the timing, depeding on .... 200

    Sometime around the model year of your car (a '91), Volvo changed from a system using the distributor to adjust ignition timing to a system in which the ECU makes all timing decisions (advance or retard) -- along with it, it introduced a new sensor (to tell the ECU the crankshaft's angle) using a magnetic pickup on the bell housing above the flywheel called a CPS (Crankshaft Position Sensor). More explanation at the end of this.

    Honestly, I'm not sure which model year it changed -- maybe '90, maybe your '91. If you have the "old-fashioned" distributor, yes, you can adjust your timing (but you should adhere to the instructions using a timing light -- don't advance it by trial and error).

    If you have the new system, it's impossible to change your ignition timing. As I wrote above, the timing is entirely under the control of the ECU. Even if you manage to somehow circumvent the stopper that ordinarily keeps your distributor from being rotated (this stopper was added along with the new system), that will not change your timing at all. But then again, your timing can't be wrong, so you'll have to look for another cause of your problem.
    ___________________________

    FYI, the old-fashioned distributor (sometimes) had an air pressure/vacuum diaphragm to use manifold pressure (for load) and centrifugal weights and springs, all to adjust timing based on the need of the engine, as well as (usually) some "hall pickup" to tell the ECU or ignition computer where the crankshaft is. And you could adjust the "basic" ignition timing by loosening a clamp and rotating the distributor body, which would change the timing of the spark in relation to the crankshaft (actually if you want to be a stickler for details, to the intermediate shaft on red-blocks, which are tied to the crankshaft by the timing belt).

    But with the new system, the distributor is mostly empty. No vacuum diaphragm, nor any centrifugal weights and springs! Nor are there any "hall pickups" or other devices to convey crankshaft position. Only the rotor remains inside, because the only job left for the distributor is, literally, to direct the spark energy to the right spark plugs. And it's locked in place, so it cannot be rotated.
    All of the distributor's old tasks such as deciding the amount of advance or retardation, measuring engine load (based on manifold pressure), and rpm, and even the crankshaft's position, is measured by other sensors, and all of that information goes to the ECU. It alone then decides when to fire each spark plug, based on algorhythms that take all those factors (not to mentions others such as coolant temperature, etc.) into account.
    If you did try to turn the distributor's body, all you would wind up doing is interfere with the overlap of the rotor and the distributor cap's electrical contacts.

    Hope this explains things.

    Good luck.








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      It's possible that you cannot adjust the timing, depeding on .... 200

      FYI, LH 2.4 and EZK (some series of numbers) were introduced in 1989 for US 240 models. It still has a distributor just no points or hall sensor in it...it truly is just a distributor.

      Even before that, the car had a fully computerized ignition system back to 1981'ish. On the Chrysler ignition I am pretty sure the vac line went to the ignition computer.







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