1997 960 Sedan, original owner, 207k miles, has not overheated, engine temp gauge is straight up at the middle of the temp range, is not blowing smoke out the exhaust, but it empties the coolant res. tank in around 150 miles of driving, or about a week of daily driving. Has evidence of oil in the coolant res. tank, and yellowish slime on the oil fill cap and dipstick after the engine is warmed up. When I change the engine oil, the oil is dark, but does not show any slime mixed with the oil in the catch pan. The engine oil level does not increase with the loss of coolant. There is some similar yellow slime collecting down near the transmission, perhaps dripping down the block from above. Cannot see well up there. It seems to be the same oily slime as on the dipstick and fill cap.

I just got the car back from the local Volvo dealer/service center. Their $180 diagnostic could not find a massive coolant leak like a blown head gasket. They said they suspect a small leak, maybe in the head gasket between the coolant and oil passages, or a crack in the block. They want $10,000 to fix it with a r/r remanufactured engine, or maybe $9,000 for a head gasket replacement. I can get a used '97 960 with around 90k miles nearby for $5000.

I am going to drain/replace the gunky oil and coolant myself, and see if I can isolate the oil cooler as the problem. Maybe it is passing fluids inside the unit somehow? Not too common, but I'm hoping it is something simple like that instead of a cracked block or blown head gasket.

Any other ideas I should consider? More things to check? I have read the many posts/tips on the subject of 960 head gaskets on this board, but so far none of that info seems to confirm what issues I have, as far as I can tell.

I am about to do the timing belt replacement on this engine (due @ 210k miles), but don't want to go there if it is a hopeless cause.

You have a classic head gasket failure. The dealer is outrageous and wrong about repairing the head and leading to lower crank problems. For $10K you could buy a very nice car with a working engine!

You have 3 choices, repl the head gasket, replace the engine, or get another Volvo. If you can DIY and have the time and luxury of a work area, the costs are minimal: new bolts, a few home made head hold down tools, new bolts, etc. You might even have time to repl the valve seals.

Find a good engine and have it replaced is more costly and a little scary because you do not know the history. Good salvage yards will stand behind it for a year. A little more expensive to R&R the engines.

Search for a replacment car in a 150 mile area. Do NOT buy a 2001-2002 Volvo. The 850/70 series had AC problems until 2000. The S80 without the T6 is good after 2003, the 5 cylinder engines are bullet proof for the most part.

Look around Portland for a good red block.
--
My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic

Hi Klaus,

I agree with you about the 3 options.

I did talk to 3 local independent Euro mechanic shops today. One did not want the work because he does not have the Volvo specific tools for the job. Another said it would be $6k to $7k for his engine R/R work. And the last one said by CA law he could only quote the engine R/R since the car has so many miles on it (207k miles) and that it would be a bad investment to repair the motor only to have the tranny fail next, etc. Well these mechanics were just "rays of sunshine" huh?

Replace the head gasket. I have the Volvo green books repair manuals on DVD, so if I just follow those directions and get by without the specialty tools, and don't break off a bunch of head bolts and valve cover screws in the process...well this might work out. I can get a used/refurb head from back East for $800 complete with valves, etc if I don't like the looks of mine. That is less than what it would cost to have my local machine shop refurb/valve job/skim/test the OEM head assy. Gasket kits and head bolts are easy to get.

Replace the engine. Seems like the most expensive route if a remanufactured motor is used for the replacement and risky if a salvage motor is used. So I will be skipping this option.

Replacement car. Going to look at few tomorrow. This might be the easiest option of all. Planning to stick with the 1997 960 series or maybe the 1998 V90 Wagon which both have the B6304S motor.

Dear Temeneos,

Hope you're well. The third mechanic - who suggested that the tranny "is next" to fail - is not familiar with the Aisin-Warner trannies. A reading of posts on this Board over the past few years shows that Aisin-Warner tranny failures are rare. Failure usually involves coolant getting into the ATF, and being allowed to stay there. Absent that - and with periodic fluid flushes - these trannies will outlast the car. That suggests a tranny service life of 300-400,000 miles.

I infer you have an another car or other vehicle. Thus, you have time to do prep work to ease the head job. For example, you can repeatedly soak all fasteners with PB Blaster, or a similar penetrating oil. If stud ends are corroded, clean them with a small wire wheel (on a Dremel or similar tool), as removing end-stud corrosion reduces resistance to turning-off the nut.

You may find that the in-place head looks fine. If so, have a machine shop check it, to be sure it is truly within specification. If so, your costs are time, gaskets/sealants, sensors (replace, while access is easy), and headbolts.

Rather than spending thousands, your costs may be a few hundred. I doubt you can buy a car for a few hundred. Once you've succeeded, you can look forward to a couple of hundred thousand miles.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Dear Temeneos,

Hope you're well. I don't operate a 960. Is the lubricating oil milky? Pull the dipstick and see if the oil is cloudy/milky. If so, water has gotten into the lube oil. With the mileage you cited, it is possible that the headgasket has failed.

If the lube oil is not milky (but is simply dark), but the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) is milky, then the in-radiator cooler has failed. AT ONCE (e.g., tomorrow): (a) replace the radiator; (b) flush all of the ATF with Wal-Mart fluid. Go 1K miles, and re-flush with Mobil 1 or similar synthetic ATF.

Water in the coolant - when coolant gets into the ATF - attacks the glue that adheres transmission clutch-pack facings. Dissolving this glue allows micro-fibers of clutch material to get free. Such fibers can clog fluidways. Further, at normal tranmission operating temperatures, water turns to steam, which does not lubricate. In short, water in the ATF is a transmission killer, unless the water-contaminated ATF is quickly removed.

If the in-radiator ATF cooler has failed - and the tranmission has been ruined - try to find a replacement transmission as a salvage yard. It should not be hard to do so: Aisin-Warner transmissions are very robust and usually outlast the cars. Do not get the tranny rebuilt: the cost will far exceed that of obtaining and installing a sound unit from a salvage yard.

The Volvo dealer, to whom you took your car, is negligent. They did not do the tests that should have been done, given the symptoms you reported.

Please report your findings.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Hi Spook,
Same to you. I hope all is well. I enjoy your many posts.

See my answers in ALL CAPS:

Is the lubricating oil milky? Pull the dipstick and see if the oil is cloudy/milky. If so, water has gotten into the lube oil. With the mileage you cited, it is possible that the headgasket has failed.

- ON DRAINING AFTER A SHORT DRIVE BACK FROM THE DEALER ABOUT 1 MILE, THE OIL IS UNIFORM DARK CHOCOLATE BROWN. I CAN SEE A MILKY GOO ON THE OIL FILL CAP, AND A TINY BIT ON THE STICK WHEN WARMED UP.

If the lube oil is not milky (but is simply dark), but the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) is milky, then the in-radiator cooler has failed. AT ONCE (e.g., tomorrow): (a) replace the radiator; (b) flush all of the ATF with Wal-Mart fluid. Go 1K miles, and re-flush with Mobil 1 or similar synthetic ATF.
Water in the coolant - when coolant gets into the ATF - attacks the glue that adheres transmission clutch-pack facings. Dissolving this glue allows micro-fibers of clutch material to get free. Such fibers can clog fluidways. Further, at normal transmission operating temperatures, water turns to steam, which does not lubricate. In short, water in the ATF is a transmission killer, unless the water-contaminated ATF is quickly removed.
If the in-radiator ATF cooler has failed - and the transmission has been ruined - try to find a replacement transmission as a salvage yard. It should not be hard to do so: Aisin-Warner transmissions are very robust and usually outlast the cars. Do not get the tranny rebuilt: the cost will far exceed that of obtaining and installing a sound unit from a salvage yard.

- I CHECKED AND MY ATF FLUID IS CLEAR REDDISH COLOR. ATF FLUID LEVEL IS NORMAL. DEALER MECHANIC SAYS HE CHECKED THIS TOO AND RULED ATF VIA THE RADIATOR OUT AS THE PROBLEM.


The Volvo dealer, to whom you took your car, is negligent. They did not do the tests that should have been done, given the symptoms you reported.

Please report your findings.

THE DEALER IS CONVINCED THERE IS EITHER A SMALL CRACK IN THE BLOCK OR THE START OF A BLOWN HEAD GASKET. THEY BELIEVE IT IS INTERNAL TO THE ENGINE. THEY DID A RADIATOR PRESSURE TEST AND DETECTED NO LEAKS, LOOKING ESPECIALLY AT THE OIL COOLER. I NOTICED THAT THEY DID REMOVE THE OIL FILTER DURING THE TECH INSPECTION/PRESSURE TEST HOPING TO SEE COOLANT COMING OUT OF THE OIL LINE. I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I REMOVED THE OIL FILTER WHEN I DRAINED THE ENGINE OIL JUST NOW, AND THEY OVER-TORQUED THAT FILTER BACK ON BY ABOUT 1 TURN TOO MANY. SUPER TOUGH TO GET OFF! THEY SAID THEY DID A CHEM TEST "SNIFF" FOR HYDROCARBONS IN THE COOLANT AND FOUND NO EVIDENCE OF EXHAUST GASSES IN THE COOLANT. THEY DID NOT DO A COMPRESSION TEST BECAUSE THEY DECIDED THAT THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF COMPRESSION LOSS OR IF THERE WAS, IT WAS TOO SMALL OF A COMPRESSION LOSS TO BE DETECTED. HUH? I KNOW, MAKES NO SENSE THERE. SEE MY OTHER COMMENTS ABOUT THE SPARK PLUGS - I JUST TOOK THEM ALL OUT AND THEY LOOK NORMAL.

SO NO SMOKING GUN YET. JUST SOME HINTS OF TROUBLE, MAYBE BIG TROUBLE AHEAD ACCORDING TO THE DEALER.

ANY THOUGHTS?

I would say that the goo on the Fill cap and the very top of your Dipstick is not a big issue. I would check the trani Dipstick and see what color you have there. I am guessing the Trani radiator that is incoorporated in your radiator is bad and you are sucking Coolant into your Trani and some trani fluid is showing up in your coolant.
--
'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/

Thx for the tip.

I just now checked the tranny fluid by pulling the tranny dipstick. Fluid is still reddish and "clear" looking. No gunk on the rag or on the stick. Tranny fluid level is unchanged, right on the marks for correct fill. I was planning to replace the tranny fluid and filter (drop the pan etc) anyway, so maybe that will show something new once I get there.

Radiator was replaced @ last timing belt change (140,000 miles) which I did myself. (1st timing belt change was done by a dealer mechanic. Big $$$ for work I could do myself I later realized). So OEM original radiator lasted 140k miles with no issues. The current (Nissens I think) radiator has been fine, but I might get a new one anyway just to eliminate the chances of a cooling system failure (I already have new hoses, heater valve, Tstat, Zerex G-05, etc ready to go in).

Would you recommend trying a radiator stop-leak product to maybe plug the small leak that I have? Any recommendations?

I must have put at least 2 additional gallons of coolant in the car over the past month. Where is it going?

I just emptied the engine oil catch pan and only saw a tiny amount of water droplets in the bottom of the catch pan. The drops were maybe a 1/64 inch in size, almost could not see them in the sun. Could not have been enough there for 1/8th of a teaspoon. The oil was a uniform chocolate brown in color, with only about 1000 miles of use on it.

See next reply for details on the spark plugs.

Dear Temeneos,

Hope you're well. You've answered questions about lube oil and ATF (automatic transmission fluid).

The coolant is not going into the lube oil or the ATF.

Have you checked cooling system hose clamps?

Does the interior of your car have a "sweetish" aroma? Are the carpets wet/damp, especially in the passenger's footwell? If you car lives in a "cool" climate, do the windows fog-up, when the temperature drops below, say, 40 degrees Farenheit? If so, the heater core may have failed.

Do not use a radiator stop-leak product, unless you plan to junk the car. Stop-leak products can leave "gunk" throughout the cooling system.

To check for inobvious leaks, take a sheet of clean cardboard, and slide it under the engine, once you park the car. Even if the coolant evaporates, the cardboard will be discolored and pucketed, where coolant drips have landed.

To check around hoses, use white paper towels. Tape them around hose connections. If coolant is leaking, but evaporates, the towel will be discolored.

Please report your findings.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

OK I think I found something.

I crawled under the car and noticed a wet oily milky fluid all over the passenger side - rear of the engine near the front of the tranny. I followed the discharge up to a location near the rear most exhaust manifold joint. Just below that and on the rear of the engine is a machined flat surface with a hole machined in it. With a mirror I can look into the machined hole and see threads. It is almost like something should be there like a bolt or threaded sensor? that is where the discharge is coming from that is evident down the side and rear lower part of the motor. It is oily and wet, like engine oil and coolant together. Where it has leaked and dried it is crusty and yellowish, just like the goo on the oil cap, but dried and crusty.

I will get my Volvo docs/diagrams out, but does anyone know what this hole in the engine is for, and if it could be where my oil and coolant are mixing perhaps?

The rest of the cooling system is tight, no leaks in the heater core or hoses, or clamps to make any note of, and no sweet smell that I can detect.

Dear Temeneos,

Hope you're well. In Volvo VADIS - the now-superseded dealer parts/service database - there is a diagram of the head, on either side of the rear face of which there are parts, identified as "Cap plugs". I'd guess these close "galleries", longitudinal holes in the head, which allow oil and coolant to circulate.

When the head is cast and machined, holes may be bored back-to-front, to connect channels in the casting, which allow circulation of oil and coolant. These openings in the rear face of the head are then plugged. It sounds as if a plug has failed. If so, I wonder why coolant loss has not been faster.

If my guess is correct, there should be a similar "cap plug" on the other side of the engine (on the intake side of the head). When you inspect that side of the head, try to see if the opening in the head looks the same as that on the exhaust (passenger) side of the head.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Hi Spook and others,

OK I looked at it again with a mirror and the machined flat and hole with the threading is lower down than I first thought. In fact it is not the cap plug missing from the head at all, but part of the block. The machined hole sits on an ear of the block casting, and as best I can see from pictures in the repair instructions is there to mount the engine to a work stand once the engine is out of the vehicle. So no passages to plug with this hole. That explains why all the coolant did not come out in a gusher.

On closer inspection, the head gasket appears to be seeping the coolant/oil emulsion outside the engine from this location. It seems likely that it is also mixing in small amounts inside the engine too at this location, but not yet into the pistons. That would explain the small amounts of oil in the coolant, the coolant in the oil, and the coolant loss. The emulsion of coolant and oil has seeped into the machined hole making it look like the source of the seepage, but it is not.

Make sense? Anything else to try for a repair? Any other diagnostics to try?

It looks like the dealer mechanic may have been right after all. I guess I could call around and see if someone else could replace the head gasket for less than $10K. Someone who has worked with the B6304S engine before.

Dear Temeneos,

Hope you're well. Excellent detective work!!

It should not cost $10K to renew the headgasket. Even at $125/hour, that suggests 80 hours of work. I'd guess - never having done a headgasket job - that it might take an experienced tech three days, so $3,000 for labor. Parts could run another $500 (e.g., exhaust gaskets, intake manifold gasket, sensors, etc.). If I recall correctly, on the B6304 engine, the headgasket is formed by use of a liquid sealant.

I'm sure you could get an engine from a salvage yard (likely with far fewer miles) - and have it installed - for less than $3,500.

Hope this helps.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Hi Spook,

Yes, I am well, and hope the same for you.

The quote I got from the dealer service was for a engine replacement. They want to use a more expensive "remanufactured" engine rather than a scrap yard replacement/rebuilt with lower miles. They said a reman engine would have all new seals, crank, pistons, valves, etc. The labor to replace the engine is only a few hours more than a head gasket job. Also, they warned me that they could replace the head gasket but that the block might be cracked or leaking, and then the fix would be an engine replacement anyway. They also said that the bottom end of the engine with 207k miles would likely suffer some failure soon after renewing the top end since the valves and head would be tight but the crank and rods would be worn.

Details of the engine replacement quote are as follows:

Parts cost: $6900 ($6000 of that for a remanufactured engine)
Labor cost: $2250 (that's for 17.1 hours at about $130/hour)
tax: $550
Total: $9700

The dealer service advisor did say they would "work with me" on the cost. Not sure if that means they will find me a personal loan company to use, or lower the price some.

I will look around town and talk to the independent mechanics and see what they say. There has to be a lower cost option compared to the dealership service quote.

If the repair cost is still too high, I might try to take the head off myself and treat it as a DIY project. I can always have the car salvaged if for some reason the DIY repair goes badly. They will even come and tow it away.

So you advise against any stop leak treatment? All of them are death to the cooling system components? If my only other option is to junk the car then maybe I will try going that route first and see what happens.

I'm just a shade-tree backyard mechanic, but I successfully swapped out the head on my wife's 960 with a 6304 a few years ago after a timing belt broke and bent all 16 valves. Fortunately the pistons survived the impact. I had a shop sent me a reworked head from Vancouver, and did the removal/installation myself using home-made hold downs and persistant use of the Volvo green books. I think it cost me about 2500 bucks Canadian. It is not really that hard to do when you follow the green books.
JD

Hi JD,

That is encouraging to hear. So it is still running strong even a few years after the repair? I might just give this DIY project a try if my efforts fail to find a replacement low mileage Volvo.

So did it all come apart and go back together without any drama? Any tips of things to do, and things to avoid, beyond the instructions in the manuals?

My B6304S motor has 24 valves, but it sounds similar to yours. I imagine that if you break off some head bolts deep inside the block, or strip some threads in the alum head that you could be in a world of hurt in a hurry.

Yes it continues to run. I sold the car two years after the overhaul, but I still see it around town. Sorry, I had meant to say 24 valves, not 16, my bad; it is the same engine that you have.
I had no issues that arose. It was nervewracking, as I am not a professional, but so long as you use the Green books that you have, you should have no issue. I did use the prescribed Volvo-brand gasket cement, and not an aftermarket one. Make sure you keep the cam buckets (hyd. lifters) in exact order, and ENSURE that they are plumb full of oil before you reinstall them.
I did a write up of my experience for the local Volvo club here. shoot me an email at brandj(at)shaw(dot)ca and I will send it to you.
JD
by the way, we went out and bought another 960 shortly after I sold that one, they are great cars!

Well the cap plug is clearly gone from the exhaust side. I found the same diagram on my OTP DVD disc of tech diagrams and parts lists. it says there are 4 of the plugs needed for the B6304S engine, but only shows 2 locations on either side of the rear of the engine. The Volvo p/n called for is 946780-4 which cross references now to Dorman #555-019

http://www.dormanproducts.com/search.aspx?SearchTerm=555-019

These are just cup type expansion plugs that (I guess) are just press fit into the hole. I wonder why there is a threaded section inside the hole, like a bolt would go there? Going to be fun trying to press fit the caps in when the firewall is just a few inches away. Maybe I should try to use a rubber type with a screw type expander instead?

I will look again but the intake side is impossible to access with all the heater hoses in there.

Questions:

1) With the cap plug missing, why doesn't a lot of fluid come pouring out?

2) What is coming out looks like an emulsion mix of coolant and engine oil, in small amounts.

3) If I plug the hole again, how will that keep my oil and coolant from mixing like it is doing now and showing up in the res tank and on the dipstick? I flushed the coolant by tapping into the oil cooler hoses and flushing clean water up and out of the res tank. Still have lots of yellow milky emulsion sitting in the res tank, even after flushing with the engine running for 15 minutes.

4) Is the root cause of the problem, or just a coincidence, while I am still looking at head gasket failure in the near future.

I almost wish it were an obvious blown head gasket. Then I would know for sure that the engine/head is gone. Right now I'm not sure what will happen next.

If the trani fluid is red and the level is good, I would look elsewhere.

Engine oil Level is good and comes out normal dirty not foamy yellowish. so that's good.

Losing Coolant. Any sweet smell while engine is running? More than normal condensation dripping out of the tail pipe?

No coolant in the driveway?

I suggest you pull out the spark plugs to see if one or more look perfectly brand new. That would indicate water/coolant getting into the Cylinder.
--
'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/

What did the Volvo dealer do for $180 ?

Did they check: for hydrocarbons in the antifreeze ? Cylinder compression ? Pressure test cooling system ? Wet spots under the car ?

If you remove the spark plugs you might see that one or more has a greenish tint on the insulator around the electrode or they may be cleaner than the rest of them. If so, you could have a coolant leak into that cylinder.

Other than that, it would help to know what the dealer checked.

Greg

OK I just pulled all the spark plugs.

All six plugs look the same: uniform black carbon deposits, not fouled but black in color, insulators are dry and have normal heat stains near tip, electrodes are fine. They came out easily since I used anti-seize last time. Plugs have about 40k miles on them. OEM Volvo brand plugs for this engine.

Still waiting for the Volvo service rep to tell me if they did a pressure test or chem test on the coolant.

I do recall one more thing the mechanic said: "I did a sniff test around the engine and found no leaks", whatever a sniff test is....

Thx for the reply.

The advisor was not able to give me a printout of the items checked (their computer locked up). I was able to talk to the mechanic when I went to get the car. He said they did not do a compression test, said he did not feel it was needed to check. Really? Guess I will be doing that test myself. I left a voice message asking about the exhaust gasses in the coolant test and pressure test. Not sure they did either of those. They had the car for a day. Will advise once I find out. Going out now to pull the plugs as you suggested.

Here is the diagnosis report as per the service paperwork:

"CUSTOMER STATES THAT THERE IS COOLANT IN THE OIL. INSPECT.
CHECKED TRANNY FLUID. APPEARS TO BE OK. ENGINE OIL HAS WATER IN IT AND COOLANT HAS OIL IN IT. TESTED FOR H/C IN THE COOLANT RESEVOIR WHICH WOULD INDICATE BLOWN HEAD GASKET. NONE DETECTED. PRESSURE TESTED COOLING SYSTEM. PRESSURE IS FALLING BUT NO LEAKS FOUND. TESTED OIL COOLER FOR INTERNAL LEAK, NONE FOUND. POSSIBLE CRACK IN CYL HEAD OR BLOCK, NEED TO REMOVE HEAD FOR LEAK TESTING."

Not sure why the mechanic missed the oil/coolant emulsion mixture dripping down the passenger side/rear of the engine, but that is where the leak is. No compression test was included, which would have been nice to know. I have a compression tester, so maybe I will try to do this myself before tearing into the engine further. The spark plugs all came out looking normal.