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This is on my 1980 242 with K-Jet and Bosch ignition.
First of all, the car runs like a champ.
However, twice in three weeks time the engine simply died while idling normally. No slowing down or sputtering. It was as if I had turned the ignition off at the switch. Which makes me think it's an ignition problem.
The first time this happened it restarted immediately and ran as normal. The second time it cranked good but took several tries to restart. It was down for about one minute after which it ran fine.
I've started it and let it run several times since without incident but I decided not to drive it again until I can remedy the situation.
I consulted Volvo publication TP30432-2, the Green Book which covers the breakerless ignition in my car amongst others. About all I am equipped to do is check various components for resistance.
The ballast resistor is showing 1.5 Ω resistance, which is high.
The coil primary winding is showing 2.4 Ω, also high.
The coil secondary winding is showing 9.05 k Ω, which is normal.
The Ignition impulse sender is showing 1.05 k Ω, also normal.
The air gap is correct. Don't see how it could be that but as long as I was there....
The rotor was a little flaky during the resistance check with values jumping up and down but never getting as high as 5 k Ω. I cleaned up the contact surfaces and it was still flaky. I tested a new rotor for comparison and it was pretty much on the money at a steady 4.98 so I installed it in place of the old one.
So...I should probably also look at the switch connections 30 & 15.
But would either the ballast resistor or coil primary results above account for such a sudden shut down?
Maybe the control unit is going bad? Is there some way to determine this?
Or is it just a loose wire somewhere?
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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That is due more to my own inertia than anything else.
I must say, if you are among those who encouraged me to consider the fuel pump relay as the source of the problem, give yourself a pat on the back and pretend it's from me.
With a substitute relay, which I had on hand, the car has run fine. I have driven it many times now and it has not conked out on me even once, something it was doing on an all too regular basis with the other relay.
Still, I had to see it happening for myself. So I pulled the good relay, removed the cover from the bad one and reinstalled it.
Then I sat there and stared at it while the engine idled.
After a few minutes, suddenly and for no apparent reason, the contacts simply opened and, of course, the engine died.
If I wasn't convinced before, I certainly am now.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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But I still have not fixed the 242. I haven't gone near it for several days now.
Seems like I have been repairing one thing or another on one car or another nearly every day for a couple of months. That's an overstatement. But I have been at it quite a bit more than usual lately.
And there are a couple of more pressing 240 issues I should probably deal with first. The wagon needs torque rod bushings. And something else...it escapes me at the moment...oh yes...I need to get the rear bumper back on it. I hate driving around without that.
I'm just sort of taking a break at the moment.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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Anyhow, a comment on your resistance readings:
The rotor sounds like a culprit, given what you've written. I know you would repeat the comparative measurements, old vs. new, to assure yourself the flaky readings can be isolated to the old.
The low ohm readings I would dismiss, unless you have rather sophisticated equipment to measure low ohms. Or at least a standard. I suspect those published by Volvo are not made by metrologists either. These same readings led a Volvoist from Oz down the primrose path, so I did some comparisons among my 3 k-jet cars for him: Notes on Breakerless Ignition
If you're not sure about that rotor, or if I missed something that tells us the problem cropped up after the rotor replacement, I too, would focus on the fuel pump relay and fuel delivery. It isn't just a matter of the relay being "OK" I'm thinking, but the red/yellow and red wiring that gets the power to it and then on to the pumps. Those terminals are notorious sources of intermittent failures after 30 years of heat cycling and oxidation.
I only wish I had a clever answer for your quest to monitor the systems in question in order to catch the intermittent failure. I think the pros are using dataloggers for those functions that are not automatically logged in OBD-2, but as you might imagine, the technology isn't economically scaled to the old car hobby.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
Duct tape is like 'The Force'. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
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Finally, the board is back in service. I could not access it last evening.
Maybe I shouldn't have buried the question so deep in the original post but those findings were the one thing I really wondered about. The books tell you what to look for but don't offer much guidance on what to do about it. I guess the implication is replacement. But if this is not likely the cause I won't worry about it too much being the car runs so well.
But it will be in the back of my mind and I will probably bring it up again.
I wish the rotor was the culprit. Yes, I checked it several times. I thought cleaning it up would help but it didn't. I did replace it and the car has died again. Twice, in fact.
Given that, and the fact that Bruce, Matt, Steve, Phil and now you all strongly suggest the pump relay as being suspect I will turn my attention to it.
In fact, I had tried to do some improvement in that area a couple of weeks before all of this began. I was confident of my repair to the wiring and conector at the 87 terminal and put it out of my mind. But now I won't be surprised to find that I have not done it as well as I might have.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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Oh crap. I feel really stupid now. That was you I sent the terminals to a couple months back. Its the screen name thing, I think, Don, or I would consider having my memory replaced.
I can't tell you where the problem is. Only point at likelihoods established by previous experiences, and we all know, there's always one new experience to add to the pile -- just hope it isn't yours.
Once, about 15 years ago, my daughter drove a Mitsubishi whose motor quit on the expressway. Started right up after missing all the opportunities to smash up getting to the breakdown lane. I had no idea what did it. But I knew it was important to know for certain what caused the stall at speed.
So I built this nerdy looking array of LEDs on a perf board to wire into various parts of the fuel injection and ignition systems, and asked her to see if she could pay attention to which colored lights were on when the next engine failure occurred.
Well, it never did recur, and the only consequence of the diagnostic was a few hosiery runs (as she recounted) caused by its rough edges and unfortunate placement in the footwell.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your own children.
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No need for that, Art. you correspond with so many via this forum I'd think it would be hard to keep track. I should have reminded you.
You and other respondents have pretty much convinced me to look elsewhere. Now if I can just get back to it.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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I would make sure that the fuel pump relay is not at the heart of the problem.
Make a short jumper wire, and when the problem shows it's ugly head, unplug the relay and jumper between the yellow/red and red wire on the relay connector.
The Red wire is directly from the fuse panel and should have battery voltage when the ignition switch is on.
The yellow wire goes directy to the fuel pump.
This will prove or disprove correct operation of the relay.
I've never owned a 80 Model, but I did have a 81 Model with K-Jet, Bosch Ignition and a Frequency valve.
On it, the fuel pump relay was located under the dash close (maybe attached to) to the steering wheel column.
I remember having a problem such as your's, and I remember driving with the fuel pump readily accessible so I could trouble shoot the problem.
hope this helps
steve
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"The Red wire is directly from the fuse panel and should have battery voltage when the ignition switch is on.
The yellow wire goes directy to the fuel pump.
This will prove or disprove correct operation of the relay."
Believing this could well be a fuel problem, I was going to suggest the basically same thing, Steve. But looking at the circuit I see that if the relay really is failing, the jumper to the pumps won't power the Lambda relay. And thus the Frequency Valve would be dead. I'm almost sure it won't run without the FV action.
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Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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I'm almost sure it won't run without the FV action.
I think I recall what may give you hesitation asserting this: Years ago you and I discussed this, so I tried it out on my 83 244Ti. Pulled the relay and started it with the 5-7 jumper. It started and idled. Of course, I did not run down the freeway with it, nor did I take a look to see how rich it was running.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
The quickest way to double your money is to fold it in half and put it back in your pocket.
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Along with other posters the only thing that comes to my mind are relays and their age.
Fuel pump and Lambda relays. The latter controls the frequency valve operation from the ECU and the 0-2 sensor output back to the ECU. Early AMM system if you throw in the air flap movement of the fuel distributor.
It is a two pole relay, that I think, is turned on with the ignition signal like the fuel pump relay.
On my 1978 GT, it is located on the driver’s fender, next to the headlight dipper relay. It is about an inch square. Age and corrosion made it as you say, flaky.
At first, it randomly started hard. Later it just would start run rough and then go fine. Once it quit on me, I got truly interested. I switched out the ballast resistor and the small black box on my car, which may be considered, the ICU today. It still did the hard start thing just as often.
In desperation, I studied the wiring and the fine printing on the diagrams. I investigated the ECU connections and relay functions. I notice a stray relay. I then noticed once while cranking or shortly afterwards that the frequency valve did not always buzz. It has to buzz!
It turns out to be that relay was the final fix. I put the ICU back and it has always worked fine and was the original. I left the newer ballast resistor were it was because it seemed to be a simple part. I think, they make them internal to ignition coils today or hide them better in the wiring.
Maybe I was lucky but thought I would pass it along with the idea to check your fuse panel. Look for corroded fuse terminals as that will cause dropouts on things, even more so with the newer cars.
Phil
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I do not think this is a fuel problem. I could always be wrong.
But...both fuel pumps are new, like brand new, and were installed between the first and second occurences of this problem.
This was done for reasons having nothing to do with the sudden death. The main pump was making a terrible noise and the tank pump sounded real wimpy. I should have done a volume test on the tank pump but I had a new spare so I installed it as well as the main.
I am more than familiar with the Lambda system. The frequency valve is happy as a clam. I listen for it's operation from time to time through a cardboard tube about 4 inches in diameter and 42 inches long. I did so recently and it is working. This is confirmed by the 50% duty cycle I saw yesterday when I checked with a dwell meter. I don't see how a problem in this area would cause the symptom I have experienced.
Before the first sudden death I had, in fact, checked my fuel pump relay and the spare I carry in the glove box. Both are good.
I just don't think this is fuel related.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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man, unless you see something obvious, you can't diagnose a problem that's non-existent. And loss of fuel will kill a car as fast as an ignition issue will...
You gotta catch it when it's acting up, and check for spark.
Were it me, I'd drive it. And I'd be armed at all times with my multimeter, some alligator clip jumper wires, a spare fuel pump relay, and whatever else you might have on hand.
And check the wiring down by the alternator. That is to say, if it's running, wiggle it and see if she dies. If not running, wiggle it and see if it starts. Seems I had an issue down there with an '82 K-jet. I bypassed something or other (think it was a red/white wire) that went to the coil.
That car has mostly been fine since.
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-Matt I ♥ my ♂
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You are so correct. It is difficult to diagnose a problem when it's sporadic like this and acts normal most of the time.
But while the 'continue to drive it' approach might work well where you live, Matt, that just isn't the best for me, living in the city as I do. I think it may come to that, though. Knowing whether or not it's sparking when this happens is obviously a huge step in the right direction.
The first time this happened was in my own driveway. So no problem there. The second time it happened I was waiting for the traffic signal to change at a busy intersection during the evening rush. This was no place to be performing diagnostic procedures.
I decide to take it out for a short drive this morning. I didn't take any tools or diagnostic equipment. And it died on me. An opportunity missed. This was on a well traveled street and even though it's Sunday morning, there were a lot of people out and about. I was blocking a traffic lane.
Based on the previous occurences, I figured it should start again. I can't rely on that. But fortunately it did. Once again, it took a minute.
I decided to drive it a few more miles using the side streets. No problems.
So, while I won't be driving the car back and forth to work, I expect I'll have to take it out and drive on the side streets and wait for it to happen again, which it inevitably will. It only took a few minutes to conk out this morning. Next time, I'll be ready.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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Indeed... back roads.
That said, to further discussion on diagnosing the problem... well, if you throw parts at it now, you might fix it.
But you'll never know. and therefore, never be able to trust the car.
An accurate diagnosis prior to repair is imperative if you want to know it's fixed...
And you do.
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-Matt I ♥ my ♂
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Exactly.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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Hi Don,
I'm not yet convinced you have an ignition problem, especially since they are so rare (compared to the fuel side).
If/when it stalls again, look at the panel to see if the usual warning lights are on (assuming the Key is still on). If those normal panel lights are off,and the fuel and temp gauges are dead, suspect Fuse 13 and it's contacts, which also powers the Fuel relay coil.
It wouldn't hurt to give fuse 7 some TLC too.
When K-jet fuel pressure drops below about 47psi, the stalling is as sudden a total ignition failure. And more common in my experience.
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Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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If/when it stalls again, look at the panel to see if the usual warning lights are on
I pulled it out of the garage and let it idle in the driveway. After about 10 minutes it died again.
The warning lights were on.
That's all I have at the moment.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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"The warning lights were on."
Were you there when it stalled? A fuse problem can be real "iffy" -- open long enough to cause the stall, then close again so everything looks OK and you can restart.
I'm afraid I was being optimistic when I suggested the panel lights as a clue. In this case at least. To me, fuse 13 is still a suspect.
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Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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I was not looking directly at the instrument panel when it stalled. I was nosing around the engine compartment.
So it could have happened as you describe.
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I won't touch anything until I make sure on this. Honestly, I don't remember if the warning lights display or not.
I think I'll take it out for another spin in a few minutes..
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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I was having some problems with mine as well. Okay, so I still am but, at least now I know I am getting spark. Check the connections at the ignition control unit. I pulled mine off and it was very dirty. I cleaned them up and got spark.
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In fact, I had looked at that connection already. Shiny metal is what I saw.
Ground is good at terminal 31. With the ignition on I measured 12.3v at terminals 15 & 16.
Thanks for your input.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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It's unfortunate that you may have to follow a lot of blind leads--but sometimes it's the simplest things. My '80 245 up and quit on the interstate last year. The cause was a bad electrical connection at the coil. The wire was tight enough but it was the cleaning that fixed it. good luck - hope you find it quickly. -- Dave
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Shutting down on the Interstate is exactly what I want to avoid. It's bad enough on the surface streets.
I have cleaned up connections while doing the resistance checks I mentioned. But thanks for bringing it up. I have not deleved into this as thoroughly as I would like. A bad connection somewhere may yet be a factor.
Blind leads...yeah. If the car's going to break down, it should just break down.
Since I have determined the coil and ballast resistor are not up to spec, I should I should replace them. It would be nice to have confirmation that my out of spec resistance findings could be responsible.
I think I would like to get a newer coil that eliminates the need for the resistor. I believe that is possible. Just need to determine which one.
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'80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon
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posted by
someone claiming to be Coyote
on
Mon Nov 14 20:46 CST 2011 [ RELATED]
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Had an 84 240 a few years back with a similar problem. Turned out to be wiring had lost insulation at the front left lower side of the engine block. Spliced new wires into the bad areas, worked flawlessly after.
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