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Hello all-
My wife's '97 850 wagon sometimes doesn't want to start right away. It will take anywhere from a little longer to finally fire to several attempts to start it. This past winter (hopefully past anyway), it ALWAYS started fine when cold soaked down to 0F overnight.
The ignition stuff (wires, cap, rotor, plugs) was replaced when we bought the car about 14,000 miles ago so it seems unlikely (although I ordered new ones just to be on the safe side).
I suspected low fuel pressure at startup, so the first (read easiest) thing I did was took the fuel pump relay out and "hot wired" it on any time the ignition is on. It still sometimes didn't start well even when it had ample time to bring the fuel pressure up.
Next I checked the fuel pressure. It had none unless the pump was running by hotwiring it or cranking the starter, but with the pump running, the pressure came up immediately. The moment the pump was shut off, the pressure would go to zero over the next several seconds.
Another thing that I noticed is that while it sounded like the fuel pump was running right after turning the ignition on (but before cranking the starter and not hotwiring the fuel pump), there was no fuel pressure until the starter was cranked. Isn't the pump supposed to run a few seconds (which would be plenty) and then shut off?
I checked the fuel flow rate too. It did the 1.1oz in less than 10 seconds when it is supposed to take 30. No problems with flow rate. I did notice a lot of bubbles though, but I think they were from the trapped air in the pressure gauge's hose. The bubbles stopped pretty quick.
It would be easy to think that the leaking fuel pressure and not starting were related, but then the car should have started fine when the fuel pump was hotwired. If it is shut off and then started right away it starts fine, so if it was leaking injectors it should have flooded at least one cyliner.
We are planning a 2500 mile trip in a week and would like to get this fixed before then, so your help would be very much appreciated.
Thanks
Dave
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'97 110K+miles 850 grey wagon, '91 300K+ dark grey 740 wagon (130K driven since purchased & has thankfully quit only once), '89 200K+ grey 740 sedan (gave as gift to daughter)
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posted by
someone claiming to be Tapsa
on
Sun Apr 1 07:11 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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Hi,
you can measure the fuel pressure from the end of distribution rail (should be around 3 atm).
The fuel pump control relay gives several power pulses to the pump when turning ignition on, it may fail in keeping giving power when cranking or there after. New relay is about $50 worth and easy to replace and to start with,
br Tapsa
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Tapsa-
Thanks for the response but perhaps my description was not clear or I didn't understand your response. I have measured the fuel pressure at the Schrader valve and it was fine. I also checked the flow rate which was excellent. These tests should rule out the pump and filters as possible problems.
When I hot wired the fuel pump, it was running any time the ignition was on whether the engine was cranking, the engine was running, or the engine was not running. The fuel pump relay was totally removed from the car and replaced by a jumper wire. It still had the occasional hard starting. This doesn't mean that the relay doesn't possibly have its own problems, but there definitely is a problem elsewhere that is giving the same problem symptoms.
I'd be interesed in any other suggestions?
Thanks again.
Dave
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'97 110K+miles 850 grey wagon, '91 300K+ dark grey 740 wagon (130K driven since purchased & has thankfully quit only once), '89 200K+ grey 740 sedan (gave as gift to daughter)
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When my 854 started doing the same thing, it turned out to be the fuel pressure regulator. Have someone else crank the starter until the engine runs while you watch the exhaust pipe. If the FPR is bad, you should see a puff of black smoke coming out.
Not having pressure before start up with a cold engine is normal, but pressure leak down after a few seconds is a good indicator of a failed FPR.
The FPR is behind the injector rail and cannot be removed without first removing the rail and the injectors. I did not bother to replace the O rings on the injectors, as per manual.
Klaus
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1975 164 w/174,800mi (Sold) 1995 850T w/91,000mi, 1998 V70R w/129,000mi
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Klaus-
I checked for smoke this morning at a cold soaked start at 40F and there was no smoke. That doesn't mean that there isn't fuel leaking into the engine because a intake/exhaust valve may have been open and the raw gas may have evaporated. I tried again right after it had been running, and then shut down long enough for the pressure to decay, and then started up again. No smoke (or trouble starting this time). It seems like this amount of fuel would be plenty to notice if it was leaking into the engine. When the car finally starts, it always runs smoothly immediately. There is no indication of flooding. Doesn't this pretty well show that the injectors aren't leaking? By the way, when I was checking the the fuel pressure yesterday, it always bled down right away, every time that I shut the pump off.
Regardless though, black smoke at start up from a bad FPR dosen't quite make sense to me. If the fuel pressure regulator was bad and allowing fuel to leak backwards when the pump stops running, wouldn't it just leak back towards the fuel tank and not into the engine? And it can't make black smoke without leaking into the engine via the injectors can it?
But, that doesn't mean that the FPR isn't why the fuel pressure drops so quickly. The hard starting may still be something else but wouldn't you agree that the FPR should be replaced regardless?
If so, I saw the FPR on the back of the fuel rail. I also saw online a picture of a new FPR. It has a port into the rail and 2 opposing hose attach points that you can't see without removing the rail from the engine. Is replacing the FPR a fairly simple task? If I was able to get the screws on the back side of the rail out to get access to the hose attach points without removing the rail, can the rest of the job be done with the rail in place? For example, would I still be able to get the hoses off?
If I must remove the rail, I'd be inclined to replace the injector O rings. Will the old ones come out and the new ones go in OK? I've tried to replace them on a '79 VW Rabbit, and they were stuck in place. We are leaving shortly for a 2500 mile trip and we will not have many options if things go bad. Would it work to only remove the rail from the injectors instead of removing the rail and injectors as a unit from the engine? Help me! :-)
Thanks profusely for your help and please forgive my neediness.
Dave
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'97 110K+miles 850 grey wagon, '91 300K+ dark grey 740 wagon (130K driven since purchased & has thankfully quit only once), '89 200K+ grey 740 sedan (gave as gift to daughter)
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You're checking the pressure at the end of the fuel rail, right? While the car is running, check the pressure with the vacuum line to the FPR both attached and unnattached. I think that should shed the most light on whether or not the FPR is problematic. Does the car run fine once it is started. I would think a FPR related problem would be more pronounced while driving under load.
I probably sound like a broken record when it comes to these things, but have you ever changed the fuel filter? At 150K miles mine was so dirty that the car would stall while driving. For $20, it's worth a shot vs. a $130 FPR.
Re. FPR replacement: I replaced a FPR much the same way Klaus did. I didn't replace any injector seals, though I think all my injectors came out with the rail. Just be careful of all the dirt that has settled down there over the past 10 years...
The '94 I was working on had reusable hose clamps, but if your '97 is like my '95, you'll need new hose clamps as they are not reusable. Check the bit of hose between the regulator and the hard line from the tank. Mine was worn/cracked. Well worth the 89 cents for a length of new hose.
Good luck,
Will
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For starters, the only thing that resembles a FPR on the fuel rail is shown in the attached picture. It doesn't look quite like the one on FCP Groton's web site (no hose attachements at either end but perhaps off to the side). Any ideas? It makes it a little difficult to do anything to any hoses.
The engine runs great, once it is running.
I ordered a new fuel filter just to be on the safe side, but not holding fuel pressure is still my best bet as to why it won't start.
Thanks for the tips on changing the fuel filter.
Dave
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'97 110K+miles 850 grey wagon, '91 300K+ dark grey 740 wagon (130K driven since purchased & has thankfully quit only once), '89 200K+ grey 740 sedan (gave as gift to daughter)
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The FPR on the 850, at least on my 1995, does have 3 nipples on it: fuel from tank, return line, and vacuum line. When my FPR died, fuel went through the vacuum line into the intake manifold - therefore the black smoke on startup when cold.
The Fuel injector rail must come off to replace the FPR. Just pull the aluminum cover off from the top, it is a pressure fit. Then unplug the electrical lines to the injectors. Unscrew the clamps holding down the fuel lines on the block. Then lift off the fuel rail. On my 850, the injectors stayed on the intake manifold, but some of the O rings on the top of the injectors fell down, out of the rail and into the engine bay! Careful. The FPR can then be removed - it is screwed onto the backside of the rail.
When reassembling, the torque values for the injector rail is 88 INCH lbs; just snug.
Klaus
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1975 164 w/174,800mi (Sold) 1995 850T w/91,000mi, 1998 V70R w/129,000mi
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Klaus-
The only thing that looks like the FPR on the fuel rail is in the attached picture. It doesn't have the hose attachments at each end like the one pictured on FCP Groton's web site. Any ideas as to why? I ordered a FPR because it seemed the most likely cause before I realized that there was a difference. Oh well, maybe I can return it if it doesn't fit.
I see now how fuel can get into the engine. Perhaps my wife's has failed toward the fuel tank rather than toward the engine? Like I said earlier, we're getting no indication of fuel reaching the engine.
OK, it seems easy enough to install the FPR assuming it fits her car. Thanks for your instructions.
Dave
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'97 110K+miles 850 grey wagon, '91 300K+ dark grey 740 wagon (130K driven since purchased & has thankfully quit only once), '89 200K+ grey 740 sedan (gave as gift to daughter)
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From what I know, the FPR changed designs. I check other online catalogs and they have the same pics. It could be just a generic picture. My 95 has a vacuum line, while my 98 does not. My 98 also does not have a return line going directly back to the tank, it is routed through the manifold and exits at the front of the mani to the return line. Too many engineers with too much time on their hands :)
Call your dealers parts department and ask for a part number and price. That way you can compare part numbers. It is a free service :) http://www.autohausaz.com/ also has them for about $103. The 98 turbo is over $200!
Klaus
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1975 164 w/174,800mi (Sold) 1995 850T w/91,000mi, 1998 V70R w/129,000mi
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jacques
on
Wed Apr 4 23:50 CST 2007 [ RELATED]
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Same issue on my XC 2000.
Only an issue when the gas tank is below half.
Dealer confirmed that there is an issue with a valve on the in tank pump.
Rail should maintain pressure with ignition off.
Unfortunatly, with the XC, they have to rip the drive train and suspension apart $$$$$.
Conclusion: after 2 years, I keep that tank full. Reminds me of an old issue with the 700's.
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Klaus-
I found out what that thing is that I've got:
"Fuel pulsation damper. Be aware that Volvo has added a pulsation damper (Part No. 1275658-1) to dampen shock waves in the fuel injection system caused by opening and closing injectors on B5254T and B5254S engines found in 1997 and newer 850 models (later called the 70 series). Volvo says these shock waves can produce the incorrect fuel flow at certain engine speeds. If the damper (which looks like a pressure regulator) ever goes belly-up, driveability trouble and DTCs are the likely result. The heated oxygen sensors may also be affected.
To replace one of these dampers, Volvo recommends draining the fuel system. Then pull the fuel rail cover, injector connectors and fuel line clips. Attach five special holders (four of Part No. 999 5533-8 and one of Part No. 999 5620-3) to keep the injectors with the fuel rail. Then pull the rail with all five injectors intact. Finally, pull the mounting rail and the pulsation damper.
Before installing the replacement damper, lubricate its O-ring with some petroleum jelly."
The cost is $89 from the dealership. I'm trying to find out if FCP Groton can get these dampers and how much they cost, but I doubt I'll get one because it likely isn't the problem.
There definitely no way for fuel to return to the tank from the rail, so I went looking for the FPR elsewhere. I found it back by the fuel filter. I tried to upload a picture but the upload link didn't like my files today. I couldn't find a part number on the FPR (it had some undercoating on it). It definitely had a return line and what looked like a vaccum line.
I'll send the pics to FCP Groton and see what Nick says.
Dave
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'97 110K+miles 850 grey wagon, '91 300K+ dark grey 740 wagon (130K driven since purchased & has thankfully quit only once), '89 200K+ grey 740 sedan (gave as gift to daughter)
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Dave,
Boy, do I feel dense! I enjoy it when I lean something on theis Board.
After I put my head on the pillow last night, I thought about my 1998 and sure enough, there is only ONE fuel line to the engine compartment. The other hard line, which looks like a return line, is actually a vacuum line! That is why there was no gasoline in it when I took off the manifold.
You are correct - the FPR is next to the filter. My 1995 has the FPR on the rail with a real fuel return line attached.
Good time to replace the filter when you are under there replacing the FPR.
Thanks for the enlightment,
Klaus, just an old dummy.
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1975 164 w/174,800mi (Sold) 1995 850T w/91,000mi, 1998 V70R w/129,000mi
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1997 FPR is back by the fuel filter? Good place as any, but I wonder why?
A pulsation damper makes sense.
The 1995 is much easier to work on :) Pulling the injectors on the 1998 was a pain, using a cresent wrench as a pry bar helped get them out. They are held onto the fuel rail by a piece of metal, which is screwed to the rail from the backside.
Klaus
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1975 164 w/174,800mi (Sold) 1995 850T w/91,000mi, 1998 V70R w/129,000mi
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Klaus and the gang-
Thanks for your input. In the end, I was able to get the FPR installed by 2:30 AM to take the car on vacation at 6 AM. It was a long day. Or maybe days. But the car started and ran fabulous for the entire trip.
For other readers, this is what I learned:
The '97 850 wagon had trouble starting occasionally. During the trouble shooting process, I found that the fuel pressure regulator always lost all pressure a few seconds after the pump was shut off (the pump was hot wired on, the engine was not running). The fuel wasn't leaking through the injectors into the cylinders because it did not have the tell tale puff of black smoke at startup and did not start as if flooded after having just been shut off and then restarted. However, while this all pointed at the FPR in my case, it does not mean all FPR problems will behave this way.
Part way through '97, the fuel pressure regulator was moved from the rail to about 6 inches forward of the fuel filter just ahead of the right rear axle (the rail has an added "fuel pulsation damper" that resembles a FPR, but isn't). The FPR also costs over $200 and was only available from Volvo. I'll let Europarts and FCP Groton know the part number if they are interested. Be aware that the dealer had trouble finding the correct Volvo part number: 9445592-0.
The FPR on the rail is a fairly easy fix, I'm told. But the one back by the axle is a little more difficult. The axle mounted FPR has 3 plastic fuel lines extending from it. One is about 6" long and attaches to the fuel pump. The other one is a couple feet long and is the return fuel line to the tank. The last line is about 5 feet long and extends up to the rigid line that starts at the rail and extends down between the engine and firewall. The first 2 have these nice quick connect/disconnect couplings that worked surprisingly well. The other has a more typical flaired tube connection.
CAUTIONS:
1) Be careful to not break the rigid fuel line from the rigid tube's nut corroding to the rigid tube.
2) BE SURE TO DISCONNECT THE BATTERY.
3) BE CAREFUL NOT TO HAVE FUEL SPILLAGE.
4) BE CAREFUL TO NOT MAKE SPARKS INCLUDING RUNNING ELECTRIC TOOLS OR TURNING ON/OFF TROUBLE LIGHTS OR FLASH LIGHTS.
The removal and installation is relatively self evident for all except the return line. The trick is to take the 2 plates off above the right forward corner of the fuel tank behind the rear seat (the carpeted plywood will have to be removed). One covers the fuel sender, and the other the fuel lines to the tank (the fuel line to the car's middle runs to the filter, the other to the return line). You will see the fuel lines going forward and then down in front of the tank. What you can just barely see is the plastic clip that holds the fuel lines in place. The end of the clip towards the middle of the car can be released but MUST then be pushed totally to the outside of the car so as to not intefere with removing the old line or installing the new one. I discovered this too late and ended up ripping the top part of the clip out entirely after wasting hours fighting with it.
Remove the coupling on the old return line from the fuel tank connections. You can now pull the old line out from under the car. You can cut the old coupling off to make things go quicker.
If your rigid line's nut was not corroded to the tube, then install the new return line before the other lines. Wrap the new return line's coupling in black tape to protect it because it is about to take a bunch of abuse and also to keep dirt out. Have one person at the bottom push the new line up from below being careful to get it in the correct spot relative to the other lines. If the lines are twisted together or not in the right positions, things will not go together. While they are pushing and twisting from below as you need, be prepared to snag the coupling with a HEAVY wire bent into a hook shape. The outside sleeve popped off my coupling, but once I put it back on, the coupling worked fine, so don't panic if yours does too.
When you connect the remaing lines, be careful to make sure the lines are not twisted together and are "relaxed" (that is, that each lines is not twisted about its own axis). Make all of the other connections before replacing the plastic bash plate that protects the fuel line that goes up to the engine so that the bash plate gets put on at the correct spot along the fuel line. Make sure that the lines near the FPR are not going to chaff.
I didn't feel like bleeding the air before starting (snowing and 2AM), but it only made the engine stumble slightly initially and then ran fine.
I hope this helps somebody. Feel free to contact me if anyone has questions.
Dave
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'97 110K+miles 850 grey wagon, '91 300K+ dark grey 740 wagon (130K driven since purchased & has thankfully quit only once), '89 200K+ grey 740 sedan (gave as gift to daughter)
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Klaus-
I checked for smoke this morning at a cold start and there was none. That doesn't mean that there isn't fuel leaking into the engine because a valve may have been open and the raw gas may have evaporated.
Regardless though, black smoke at start up from a bad FPR dosen't quite make sense to me. If the fuel pressure regulator was bad and allowing fuel to leak backwards when the pump stops running, wouldn't it just leak back to the fuel tank and not into the engine?
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'97 110K+miles 850 grey wagon, '91 300K+ dark grey 740 wagon (130K driven since purchased & has thankfully quit only once), '89 200K+ grey 740 sedan (gave as gift to daughter)
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