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Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

Hyacinth is driving me bonkers! For a quick refresher, she’s a ’73 ES with a ’70 B20E that has been modified. It has the IPD Big Bore kit installed; the head has been milled (but the PO didn’t remember how much…GGgggrrrrrr..), an IPD Street Performer cam, and D-Jet with a modified IPD computer with a rheostat and a couple of binding posts and lamp cord…. It has the Allison/Crane ignition system, and I have cleaned the ignition contacts. I bought the car as a basket case and have no baseline for comparison

Anyway, she’s running (not close to drivable), and not running well. Perhaps it’s the nature of the mods, but the idle is pure cr@p to non-existent. It idles like a redneck’s small block Chevy, but maybe worse. So far, I’ve tested the MAP for leakage and resistance across the terminals per manual (are there other tests? I don’t have a spare). Throttle switch has tested fine, and both temp sensors test OK. I have a new intake gasket, new injector seals, o-rings for the injector towers, etc. I’ve disconnected the brake booster, the PCV hose, the charcoal canister hose, the aux air valve, everything that could leak, and taped off the openings. Fuel pressure reg is set to 28 lbs. Fuel is fresh premium. The engine will not idle at all at 900 RPM, and barely tolerable at 1200. The computer rheostat takes it from running poorly to not at all, and the exhaust smells very rich.

I swapped out two different stock computers, trying to take that out of the equation, and it does not seem so rich, but still idles poorly, at 1200 RPM minimum. An IPD tech stated that a slightly lumpy idle is to be expected with this cam, but I wonder if the overlap is reducing vacuum to the point that the computer makes it run rich? Or is the combination of cam and engine mods just simply going to run rough below 1200? He was not sure.

Please, any comments or suggestions before I take a sledge hammer to the car?








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    Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

    Gad! Reminds me of my own situation when I purchased a car that someone had "Big Bored." Took my four years...four years to get it running. Now it runs like a top. I think I bothered most of the gentlemen who previously responded to you and appreciated all their advice. But there is no magic bullet. So here goes my story.

    I had all the symptoms you describe, plus hot running and a horrible dip below idle everytime I left off the accelerator. First thing I did, after ignition, wires, checking all the sensors, checking the MAP for vacuum, etc, was found an old 140 (B20F) ECU for $10 and swapped it out to see if the ECU was bad.(after unsuccesfully substituting a $300+ factory reconditioned B20E ECU). That cured the idle dip. Makes sense..with the bigger bores, compression ratio should decrease, so an ECU suited to lower compression should work better.

    Then I started to play with the fuel pressure, gradually increasing it to 32 PSI, to handle the top end stumble.Then I constrained the centrifugal advance and advanced the timing to 18 degrees BTDC. All that took about three years...all the while it ran OK, but not like my previous stock 72.Ran rich.Had to use hotter plugs. Then it really started to miss. A leak down test said there was a leaky intake valve. I was about ready to have the head pulled and a valve job done when a crusty old used car guy recommended some stuff to clean the carbon out of the top end. Can't remember what it's called, but I got it at the local Ford dealer for $20. The situation improved but I still had a miss. Took it to a competent vintage Volvo mechanic and by the time they got it the miss was barely there. They checked compression (175 X 4) and said it might be an ignition problem. By the time I got it back that elf oil must have fully worked it's magic because the miss was gone and I couldn't make it run badly..in fact was able to decrease the fuel pressure and switch from premium to middle grade without knocks. Man, the thing purrs, even idles well. I'm convinced it was a carbon and valve sealing problem all this time.

    So, to summarize my particular formula: Restrict top end of centrifugal advance slightly. Pertronix ignition. Timing at 18 degrees. B20F MC (you may have to do a work around on the cold start circuit..I use a momentary contact button under the dash). Fuel pressure at 31 PSI. NGK BP5ES (or whatever they are) plugs...5, not the normal 6. One step hotter. And a can full of that good old professional grade top end decarbonizer once a year.

    I hope this contribution will add to the volumes of bad advice available on the web. Like you said, there are really too many variables when you start big boring these things.For me it was valves. For you, it's your own struggle. Hang in there...But don't wish too hard. Now that mine runs so well I don't even know that I'm driving it and much of the thrill has gone.








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      Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

      Thanks for your story of struggle. There are a few nuggets there I will try, though the MAP snsor seems to have resolved most of hte problems. Next step is really to get teh car roadworthy again, so I can start tweaking it. Now, how did you constrain the centrifical advance? Different springs, weights, or putting a physical stop?








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        Centifugal Advance 1800

        Actually, it was quite easy. I read a treatise by some British guy (Phil Singher can probably supply you with the link) on the topic and would have needed a machine shop, test lab and a degree from MIT to do it like he did. But his explanation of the theory was easy to understand so I simply disassembled the distributor and put a small piece of copper tubing, actually a slice off the end of the tube about 3/16 long, over each stop and crimped them in place. That constrained futhermost advance enough to allow the 18 degree advance witout knocking. Not precise, but heck, it's a 35-year-old car.

        I really wanted to put in a whole new fuel injection system, but it's running so well now I'll save that $750-$1000 expense.








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    Some MAP numbers for you 1800

    Super glad to hear you got a step in the right direction. Before you buy a MAP check these out. I got these from a link that was put out on the 1800 list a while ago. They are accurate for the cars I've seen in driveways and pick and pulls.

    0 280 100 010
    1970 1800E (4 speed)

    0 280 100 015
    1971 1800E

    0 280 100 035
    All injected 1972 Volvo 140 models (with B20F engine)
    All 1972, 1973, and 1974 Volvo 164 models (with B30F engine)
    All 1972 Volvo 1800E and 1800ES models (B20F engine 4 Speed and Auto)
    (Compression lowered to 8.5 to 1)

    0 280 100 053
    1973 and 1974 164 is (with automatic transmission)

    0 280 100 054
    1973 140 series and 1800ES (B20F 4 Speed and Auto)

    0 280 100 059
    1975 164 is (with automatic transmission)

    0 280 100 066
    1975 164 is (manual trans)
    --
    Dave Shannon
    Spring Valley, California
    '67 1800s
    '73 1800ES
    '88-240
    my pages








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    Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

    I played hooky this afternoon, and played around...I think I am down to it being a bad MAP sensor, I'm going to check with a buddy that might have a spare.

    First, I went through the whole list on vclassics.com archives, all checked out.

    All plugs are very black, but not wet maybe 20 minutes time since new and they are already this black. Compression, cam lobes, etc are fine. Checked the temp and pressure sensors from the ECU plug, no problems noted. Injector resitance was just under 3 ohms each. Trigger points test fine, as did the throttle switch. Fuel pressure did not climb, negating a possible partly clogged return.

    Ignition checks fine, This has the Crane unit in it, I reset the optivcal trigger ( it was pretty close) no change. Stock computer makes no improvement.

    The one thing I noticed and failed to mention earlier, is that it runs fine for 30 seconds or so when first started, then goes rough and rich, and will do that each time. It won't accelerate well now ( I may have messed up the throttle switch adjustment) but once up to 2000, smooths out a bit, then goes rough and rich again.

    There's not much left but try a different MAP is there?








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      Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

      I borrowed a questionable MAP from a friend, hooked it up, and there is a SUBSTANTIAL improvement. I need to buy another MAP ( hint hint, someone contact me off list).

      I still have fouled plugs, probably the timing is off after all the futzing about, and may still have a few minor issues, but overall, the MAP sensor was the major culprit, despite not leaking vacuum and meeting the resistance checks.

      Thanks all!








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    Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

    I had similar problems sometime back and was trading between several computers
    and several MAP sensors. It turned out that the ones I was using were BOTH
    bad - so when I was trading different MAPsensors I had a bad computer in and
    when I was trading different computers I was using the bad MAPsensor.

    I could perhaps loan you a verified MAPSensor to assist in your effort if you'll
    return it to me when you're through. Normally you can get one on ebay but
    till you check it out you can't be SURE that it's good. Prices usually run
    about $30 or so. Resistance checks prove the wires aren't broken or shorted
    but do NOT prove functionality.

    E-mail me offline.
    --
    George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!








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    Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

    The poor idle quality indicates something for sure - of course you know that. So the big bore kit, the compression, are not part of the problem at all. The cam is known to work with the D-jet, and so that is also not a problem.
    The trigger contacts may very well be the problem. Set the idle speed to make it run, and disconnect the injectors to find any that aren't contributing. You can also check the ignition wires, and doing so would be a good idea.
    The MAP sensor you mention was checked for leaks. Check again and be sure there are none at all. If you have a spare, plug it in.
    Wires can drop off those old Bosch connecters, and it can be as simple as that.
    I am surprised that you mention the reostat makes a noticeable difference. On an engine running well the change can be very minor, so on one running that poorly I can't imagine how you could tell. Set it full lean in any event while looking for the trouble - CCW as I recall.
    They don't call it Demonic Tronic for nothing!








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      Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

      Well, the rheostat goes 'round and 'round, with no stops. It changes the idle from rough ( 2 positions, about 180 degrees apart), to flooding out. All injectors are firing, and reving the engine clears it out quite abit and does not sound bad, though being undriveable (no brakes yet) who knows how it is under load. All connectors were cleaned and checked, plugs, wires, cap and rotor are all new. One thing you mentioned is that the Street Performer cam is known to work with D-Jet, so that answers my concern of reduced vacuum at idle due to overlap.

      I have no extra MAP to test with, but it does hold vacuum and the resistance is within the ranges specified by the manual. I swapped in a stock computer, it's not running as rich, but still a poor idle.








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        Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

        The rheostat doesn't have an internal stop, so its ability to go around and around is ok. If it changes the quality of the idle, you can assume it's working. If you want to really be sure, you can test it with an ohmeter.

        There might be a diode between the two lugs on the computer (where the wires from the adjustable box are connected). Remove the diode if it's there. If it isn't there, that's fine. Make sure the wires are nice and snug. The diode is meant to be used if you decide to remove the adjustable box - unconnect the box, replace the diode (right way around) and the box is functionally stock again.

        The Djet probably can't be optimized for the setup you have - but it can certainly be made to run; and run well enough to get you down the road.

        I've used Djet in a 2130cc B20F with the same cam you have; fuel pressure was set to 34psi, the adjustable ipd box stayed at +5%, and it ran pretty well. Very well for a street driven car, but not for a 'performance' car. 32mpg was pretty cool. We did another one a few years ago, which was a 2200cc B20 with an R cam and higher compression ratio, and this was was driveable as well - not at all tuned, but easily driveable. Ran STRONG up to about 5000rpms, when the djet fell short. On each of these cars (both 122s), we disconnected temp sender 1 - the intake air sender - as this slighty richens the fuel mix and gave us a smoother idle. Anyway - I don't think that your problem is a result of the Djet's shortcomings (but they will be a factor when you get to refining what you have).

        Sounds like you've tested pretty much everything in the FI system, though I don't see a mention of the temp senders - I'd check these to confirm that the resistance values are close. Aside from that, I'd go with what Phil said - confirm that the ignition system is working perfectly. The last 3 fuel injected Volvos that came here for "fuel injection troubleshooting and repair" didn't have any fuel injection problems...

        I vote that you get what you have working as well as you can before swapping out the fuel system - it'd be a bummer to change all that out (and spend all that money) only to find that something else was the culprit!

        Best,

        Cameron
        Rose City








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          Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

          Cameron: I've got the car running well once it's over 1200 RPM ( no brakes yet, so this is just revving it in the driveway), but idle is very rich and rough...How does your set-up idle, and what speed? Feel free to e-mail me off line at ron.dame@att.net

          Ron








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            Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

            The adjustment on the box is used only at idle - one of the little sets of triggers in the throttle switch activates it.
            --
            I'm JohnMc, and I approved this message.








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          Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

          Cameron: I've got the car running well once it's over 1200 RPM ( no brakes yet, so this is just revving it in the driveway), but idle is very rich and rough...How does your set-up idle, and what speed? Feel free to e-mail me off line at ron.dame@att.net

          Ron








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        Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

        There's an adage that 90% of injection problems are actually ignition problems. Have you checked the gap at the points? Does the coil wire throw a nice fat spark if you hold it 1/4" from the block?








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    Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

    As the folks over on the 1800 list said, D-jet hates modifications. Even the ipd computer won't make up for it, the limited tuning just won't handle all the variables you have. Get carbs or megasquirt . While you're at it search the archives for some of Phil S' comments on motor building, it's an art.

    You also might want to read his article at
    http://www.vclassics.com/mppe1.html

    I'm not trying to bumm you out, just let you know that what the PO did may not be the best combination of parts, it sounds a lot like Phil's first motor in the article. You probably will be able to get it running well, but I'd be surprised if the stock injection will do it.
    Good luck, the ES' are well worth the effort and you will be happy when you are done.
    Cheers
    --
    Dave Shannon
    Spring Valley, California
    '67 1800s
    '73 1800ES
    '88-240
    my pages








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      Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

      I gotta agree, the PO seemed to collect parts and stick them together, hence the head was milled for higher compression, but no port work was done. Other 'everybody knows' things, such as headers add 10 HP, cams 10 HP, big bore, 20 HP, blah blah blah, he thinks he had close to 200 HP....not likely.

      Maybe I will have to megasquirt this thing to get it to run, for now I just want ot get it to move so I can get a few other projects going.

      Thanks!








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        Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

        I'd tend to think that while the tune might not be dead on with D-jet, you should be able to get pretty close with the adjustable box. At least, nothing in that mix sounds like it is so radical D-Jet isn't going to be able to get it to idle properly.

        First things first.

        1) Checking and tweaking the FI system should be the LAST step in determining why it is running poorly. First thing should be to check everything else, make sure the mechanical side of the engine is working properly. It's possible to tune D-Jet around a burned valve, but not wise. Check the compression, adjust the valves. Check the timing, and spark strength (visually). Check (visually) for a flattened cam lobe (by the time they are flattened enough to make a difference they are readily visible to the naked eye - just pull off the valve cover and cranke the engine around a few times, watching each valve go down). Lay a straight edge over the valves to se an indication of exhaust valve seat recession. Lots of 'other' ways a B20 can run like crap, regardless of how it is fed.

        2) Next step is the mechanical side of D-Jet. You already checked the fuel pressure - that should remain the same all the time, idling or full throttle. Next are the injectors. They need to not dribble when shut, and spritz a precise amount when open. To check, release all 4 sheet metal collars on the injectors, give each injector a little twist to break the stiction, then gently pull up the entire fuel rail, wires and hoses attached. Then, turn the ignition key on and off a couple of times (to get fuel pump on to build up pressure) and leave it on (might pull a low tension coil wire - the coil can overheat if left on for to long without the engine running). The go over by the injectors and look at them. None should be doing anything - no dribbling, no dripping, certainly no spraying. Next, put your hand on the throttle and slowly pull it open. As it opens, the 'accelerator pump' feature in it should fire the injectors in pairs. This isn't an accurate flow measurement, just look for a nice healthy spritz out of each one, matching the others. You should be able to spot any injector that is slacking significantly, and definately any injector that is stuck and not spraying at all. Stuck injectors will definately make the engine run rough. before you run off and order another $125(ish) new injector, try gently pushing up on the pin in the tip - sometimes it is just stuck shut with gummed fuel, once opened the fresh fuel will clean it out and it can resume a productive life. If they look good, put the fuel rail back on, and pull out the cold start valve (the '5th' injector by the throttle) and make sure it doesn't leak or dribble when the fuel PSI is up.

        3) Next is checking the elctrical side of D-Jet. Luckily, there just aren't that many electrical gadgets on D-Jet. Google up a site that has the expected readings, get a multimeter, and check the readings of the various sensors. The coolant temp is a biggy when it comes to rich running engines - they fail and the engine goes into full warm-up rich setting. The air temp sensor has only a minor effect. The MAP sensor is another prime culprit. Personally, I like to pull the big plug off the computer under the dash there and take my readings from it (consult a wiring diagram for the proper terminals to check for each sensor). That way I check the wiring as well as the sensor. About 1/2 of the time (made up statistic BTW) the faults are in the sensor itself, and 1/2 the time it is in the sad old 35 year old wiring harnesses with their itty bitty wires that have baked on that engine for so long.

        4) Last (and actually least) is checking the computer. I don't actually know of any good way to check one (at least for anything other than gross failure). So just swap for a 'known good' computer to see if things improve. There are differences between various computer models (each one is basically a hard-wired representation of a particular engine model's operating chracteristics) but not really enough to make the engine run horribly. Computers go by cheaply on eBay from time to time as well. They really are pretty tough, and failures are pretty rare.
        --
        I'm JohnMc, and I approved this message.








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          Too many variables ( B20E and D-Jet) 1800

          Thanks to all for the ideas on what to check. I also got a few more on teh Yahoo group. Unfortnetely I did not have the chance to check anything last night, but will post what I find once I have a chance to go through it all.

          Ron







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