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Hi all! I'm proud to be the owner of a rescued brick. A 1975 164E with 93,000 original miles.
I'm new to this particular FI system, so I thought you guys could help.
When I first got her she turned over with some fluttering of the pedal, ran REALLY rough and died as soon as I got her out of the garage.
After a few weeks of waiting for some ignition parts (new plugs, 8mm wires, cap, rotor and new air filter) I turned the key and she fired right up. A little rough at first, then she tuned out and ran smooth.
I shut her off and there was a small backfire, went to the store, bought some Lucas injector lubrication/ cleaner and octane boost.
Now she won't start. The plugs are fouled with gas and carbon, there's a puddle of fuel under the butterfly valve and after a long crank she shot fire.
So, where do I start? She's obviously running rich and killing spark.
Everything under the hood seems to be original.
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Both George and John are Guru's and you should follow their advice. Excellent stuff. My 164 had the cold start unplugged causing 30 second cranks on the starter and 1/4 throttle to get air in the intake manifold.
Clean the contacts for the cold start and the temp sensors just in front of cylinder 1. The fuel pressure regulator should be OK, but the injectors are probably dirty. Once you get it started again, let it run for about 20 minutes to let the engine get nice and warm keeping your eye on the temp gauge. The idle speed should be at 800.
I just got my 164 at Christmas and it is a little better than a basket case. The seats were replaced with cloth ones from a 1990 240, the Spanish Moss was crumbling and the black leather was completely dried out and falling apart.
You don't need octane booster, the compression is low enough to use regular(87 octane). If it pings, try cleaning out the cylinders with Seafoam.
The plastic casing on the wires gets brittle with age, so check the wires around the intake manifold to make sure they are not grounding anywhere. The 6 cylinder is very easy to work on, but is built so strong that you shouldn't need to work on it.
Keep us posted,
Klaus
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98 V70Rawd(108Kmi), 95 854T(88K mi), 75 164E(173K mi)
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On a side note my 164E was on the San Juan Islads for 25 years. Purchased in Colorado, it was used for very little driving. The original owner gave it to his daughter in 2001, who lived in Seattle. Her and her boyfriend drove it very little and took care of even less. The leather was held together with Duct tape and there were areas where it looked as though they hasd tried to stich it together. There were still brand new parts for it in the truck, some of which I am still investigating. The fuse panel was cramed with glass tube fuses and paper clips. Purely awful. It's been a monbth of uncovering one shotty "fix" after another.
Jason
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If we lived closer we could have a few beers an swap horror stories. Mine was free. It sat in the driveway for two years without running, had no brakes, so I towed it to a local garage. The master cylinder was dead, brake fluid in the vacuum servo, the rear brake calipers were frozen open, needed new battery and plugs/wires/cap/rotor. Mechanic started it and the car smoked like crazy until he disconnected the vacuum line from the servo. It was sucking brake fluid into the manifold!
It's here in my garage now, it "runs" and stops(no booster), I replaced the seats from a 240 (lots of duct tape), replaced burned out bulbs, new exhaust/intake manifold gasket, heat shield repaired, new rear shocks, and just took out the instrument cluster because the turn signal lights didn't work on the dash.
I still need to put on front shocks, oil pan gasket, main front seal for the tranny, new tranny pan gasket, stop the diff leak, replace the steering gaskets, and replace the rear seat. Oh, only one side of the Ebrake works.
Just fun stuff. I should be done next year, unless I want to repaint it.
Take your time, and email me with any questions you don't want to post on the board.
Klaus
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98 V70Rawd(108Kmi), 95 854T(88K mi), 75 164E(173K mi)
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So here's the thing about the fuel, I have seen and read in three or more articles that the 3 litre was made to run with a high octane.
When I pulled the plugs two days ago they looked awful. Heavy carbon soot almost to the point that the gap wasn't visible. Soaked with gas and not that old, they were NGK R's, I could only assume that it would be necessary. Being that IPD sells a compression lowering head gasket kit for the 3 litre.
Is it all a bunch of bull? Or are these few people just mistaken?
Again, being really new to the quirks, I just want to be as well informed as possible.
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Owner's manual for 1975:
Octane rating: 91 RON However, in the USA an octane rating of 87 is the result of RON/MMR which is acceptable.
So, 87 octane is good, unless it is very hot outside and you get pinging when accellerating.
Klaus
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98 V70Rawd(108Kmi), 95 854T(88K mi), 75 164E(173K mi)
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It depends on the year. Unless yours is European, it has the B30F low comp
engine and does NOT need a thick headgasket. Usually even the high compression
B30E and B20E will run OK on normal gas as long as it isn't spiked with
weird things like alcohol, MTBE, etc
I had similar problems with my 145E, same system, B20F engine. I found that
my MAPSensor was bad and so was my computer. (I took them up to a friend
in Hutchinson, Kansas, who had a running 142E. He let me swap my parts,
7 MAPSensors and 4 computers into his car and I found that I had ONE dud
MAPSensor and ONE dud computer but all the time I had been working on it I had
either the bad 'puter OR the bad MAPSensor installed, IAW Murpy's law.
So if everything else chex out OK, you may have an electronic problem in either
the MAPSensor or the box under the seat. BTW I found that water can get into
it through the cable where it comes through the firewall! The grommet is like
a FUNNEL!! No water in the car, but some in the computer! So you might want
to check that and see if there is evidence of moisture or corrosion in the
'puter box.
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George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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Plugs looking like that wouldn't have anything to do with the compression.
Sounds like it is just running too rich.
A link to many D-jet links. You need a good multimeter to test the sensors. I like to refer to a wiring diagram and make checks with the multimeter at the computer by pulling the monster multiplug and probing the proper contact pairs - that way you test the wiring and the sensor at the same time. If you see an anamoly, check again at the offending sensor to see if the anamoly is in the wiring or the sensor.
Lots of D-Jet cars get hacked to death by people who try to use mechanical tinkering skills on them, trying to fix problems by tinkering with the hardware. But most problems are usually electrical in nature.
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I'm JohnMc, and I approved this message.
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Sounds like the cold start injector is leaking. There may be other problems
also but that is what would give you a puddle in the manifold.
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George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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George,
Is it possible to maintenance the cold start injector and if so is it worth the time or should I just get a new one.
Would I test the Cold start injector the same as a cylinder injector?
Jason
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I suspect that CruzinPerformance would do it but there are plenty in salvages.
To check it, pull it out and turn on the ignition and see what happens.
Might want to put it in a cup or something to catch what comes out.
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George Downs Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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Yeah, that cold start valve isn't a precision instrument like the injectors are. It should just not leak when shut and at least make a decent atempt at making a spritz instead of a dribble when open.
The only time it should open is when the engine is cold and the starter is engaged.
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I'm JohnMc, and I approved this message.
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I think the 164E used D-jet to the end of production.
It is a little hard for the computer to mistakenly tell the injectors to stay open too long on a cold start - if it was running rich after it warmed up the coolant sensor would be a goo place to check. But going rich during crankinig sounds like something a it more mechanical.
The checks I would do to look for likely suspects:
1) Leaking injectors - D-jet injectors that haven't been used much lately will often get sticky. Usually they stick shut, but they can also stick open. unfasten all 6 little sheet metal holders that hold the injectors to their mounts, give each one a little twist to break the stiction, and gently pull the entire fuel rail up with all oses and wires still attached. You should ave just enough slack to barely pull the ends of the injectors past their sockets. Then pull off one of the low tention (12V) wires on the coil (so it doesn't overheat while you fiddle with the injectors), turn on the key several times (to ensure pressure - don't crank), and leave the key on. Go up by the injectors and look for any gas coming out - there shouldn't be any. If you open the throttle the injectors should fire (I think in two groups of 3) - look for any that don't spray or have noticable weaker sprays.
2) Fuel pressure - a stuck, plugged, inop pressure regulator can let the pressure deviate from the prescribed 28 to 32 psi range (I've seen various figures, you can use the pressure to fine tune). Running rich could be the result of high fuel pressure. Unhook the hose from the cold start valve and attach a pressure gauge. Turn the key on several times and see what it does. Should hit 29 - 32 and stay steady.
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I'm JohnMc, and I approved this message.
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