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So.... Who has put a 5 speed in a 120 series car??
What are your successes and your failures. ODs are fine, but I would rather have the flexibility that a 5 speed offers over the M41s. M41s are not getting any easer to find also!
I am particularly interested in the Tremek T5 as it is very widely available. Other candidates are worthy of consideration as well.
Tell us all what you have done. I know there are some out there. Ozzi.. you got one in a wagon don't you?
Any dimensional data (M40 mounting bolt patterns, Front bearing retainer diameters, etc.) are solicited as well. I don't have access to any parts that are currently out of the car and would like to design up the adapter is 3D CAD without taking my car apart.
Twombo
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Knutselsmurf, Ben how did you balance your flywheel?. As a unit with the crank or by itself. Since i converted 74 144 i have vibration, the only thing i have not swapped over is flywheel it should be in balance as they swap from engine to engine. Regars Jack McIntyre.
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I used a M47 (which is a 5-speed from an early 200 serie) and a M46 (also 200 serie) in my 130.
If you use the standard B23 bellhousing, the tranny bolts straight on, but sits on an angle. I had some vibration problems and thought the "sitting on an angle" was the prob, so I went from slanted M47 to slanted M47 but still had the same prob. So I got a welded bellhousing so the tranny would sit right up again, but still had vibrations. Turned out to be very slight unbalance in the flywheel. So probably you can just use the standard bellhousing and use a early type M47 (with speedo) or a M46 (4+OD) from the 200 series.
You do need to change:
-drive shaft
-frictionplate (depending what type tranny)
-tranny support arm
-shift linkage (if you plan on putting it in on an angle)
Cheers Ben
--
Daily driver: P130, '65, B18+M47. In the proces of restoring: P131, '69, B20+AW71L. (www.knutselsmurf.web1000.com)
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Wow! Didn't even know they made 5 speeds for 240s. This may be the slickest and most trouble free swap going.
Thanks loads.
Twombo
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posted by
someone claiming to be knutselsmurf
on
Tue Mar 30 21:20 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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I have a five speed T5 , although it is not "in" yet. its on the motor but the motor is not in the car yet.
Issues I had are: getting the right yoke for the driveshaft, getting a new clutch disc with the right number of splines for the input shaft, getting the right pilot bearing for the input shaft, getting the right "bearing" for the fork (it turned out to be a truck part) for engaging the gears, and machining and welding it so that it can slide easily as it is engaged/disengaged by the fork.
Issues i plan on having this week are: hooking up the hydraulics for the clutch, fabricating a transmission mount, cutting a hole in the trans tunnel. I was told, and from eyeballing it looks to be a bit large for the tunnel.
i should make a website on this
hope that helps, i should make a website on this
ozzi
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In order
"Issues I had":
Yoke for the drive shaft... I assume you shortened the fron section of thedrive shaft and installed a conventional slip jont and yoke.
What disk did you find that works?
Pilot bearing .. I assume I can turn, drill and ream one to fit from oilite bronze.
I lost ya on the fork. Is this a trans shifter part? This I would be especially interested in a picture of!!
"Issues I plan on having":
Tranny mount. I assume the T5 mount will be farther back than the M40 mount and maybe a little lower?
Bigger?
My guess is a substantial mod in the upper shifter area? Probably a lot like putting a rear shift M40 in a 122.
Also, interference near the bellhousing due to tranny width? I have read the T5 is about 9.5" wide at the top.
Sound like you have addressed all the main obstacles at this point and are picking em off one by one!
A web site is cool. Hard to fit that one into your priorities at this point though, huh?
Keeps us up on your progress!!!!
Thanks Ozzi
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The only reason i had for going to a T-5 was for the increased torque and horsepower loads that it could hold - which need to be around 250-300 for both. Otherwise i would have used the perfectly good D-type or J-type trannies that i have in my garage. Would not be worth the expense if the extra power didnt necessitate it - a T-5 tranny new costs a cool grand, i picked up a rebuilt one for $400.
The following are answers to your other questions:
"Yoke for the drive shaft... I assume you shortened the fron section of thedrive shaft and installed a conventional slip jont and yoke. What disk did you find that works?"
yes on the driveshaft, yoke and clutch disk are both ford type, make sure you get the diameter that fits the volvo (8.5?) I got this from john parker @ v-performance - as well as the T-5 adaptor for the bell housing, he can give you more of an informed opinion about all this than i ever could.
"Pilot bearing .. I assume I can turn, drill and ream one to fit from oilite bronze."
Yes thats what we did, its not a ball bearing type, just a ring type, bb not necessary since all it does is hold the input shaft in place.
"I lost ya on the fork. Is this a trans shifter part? This I would be especially interested in a picture of!!"
I lost myself (and my mind) on this whole project a long time ago. I dont know what its called but its a cylinder that the input shaft goes in and is slid in and out when you move the fork. It pushes on the pressure plate and allow you to disengage the trans from the engine to shift gears. The old cylinder was too short so we got another, longer one of the right diameter (from a truck , dont know the model or year). Put a second lip on it and . . . . yeah you know what i'll just take a picture of it and post it.
"Tranny mount. I assume the T5 mount will be farther back than the M40 mount and maybe a little lower?"
No idea the T-5 looks longer but , will let you know about fitmant issues when i find out, hopefully this week.
best
ozzi
'67 220
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Yo, OZZI!!
Gotcha... I copied all! Now I understand the "fork". The clutch release fork that the throughout bearing is mated too. Makes sense.
My guess is that little clearancing will be needed for the upper front corners of the tranny, based on numbers I have seen. The T5 is 9.5 to 10 inches wide at the point. and about 6 inches high on the input shaft centerline. I found a link that gives trans length dimensions for the various T5 models that may be of value to you. Can't find the overhead view... I had it, but cannot find the link again....DOH!
http://ddperformance.com/images/t5dia.jpg
Yeah, now I know where the adapter is on John's website.
Knutlesmurfs post is very informative too. Didn't even know 240s had 5 speeds
Things are becoming clearer.
Thanks for the reply.
twombo
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I need to reply here as there is a some misinformation that should not be passed on. Not in any particular order.
Regarding the T5.
Very popular now for replacing the M46 and M47 in turbo 240s and 740s due to higher power carrying capacity, preferance for 5th gear compared to overdrive, comparatively low cost, and ease of repair and replacement of parts.
See www.fordmuscle.com for more info on the T5 trans.
Pilot Bearing
We are generally talking about 92 and earlier T5's from the mustang - there are a lot of others with different input shafts, shifter positions, etc.
There are essentially two trans in this catagory, one from the 2.3 four cyl and one from the V8. The 2.3 will fit into the Volvo pilot bearing, althought the shaft tip may be a little long. The V8 trans has a larger diameter pilot and needs to use the ford pilot bearing - an exact fit into the end of the Volvo crank - no adapting necessary.
Throwout Bearing.
You have to use the ford bearing because of the larger diameter of the T5 shaft.
For cable clutch cars we have adapters for the clutch fork that allow it to mate with the ford TO bearing. For hydraulic clutch cars we can modify the clutch fork to fit.
Clutch Disc
The ford 2.3 disc is 8.5 inches and will fit. We have high performance discs for
those needing to transmit significantly more power than stock.
Adapter Plate
Our adapter plate allows the T5 to be bolted right up to a B18/B20 bellhousing.
We have them in stock. We have slightly different plates for the 240/740.
Shifter location
With our adapter plate ( 3/4 inch thick ), the shifter comes out in what is the stock location on an 1800E/ES, some 140s and the 240. This would be about an inch forward of the shifter location of a 122 that came with overdrive.
Slider Yoke
This fits into the tailshaft of the trans and attaches with a universal joint to the driveshaft. Let the driveshaft shop that will be modifying or doing a new driveshaft handle this, but be carefull on the diameter and clearances with the end of the trans tunnel. Most are doing one piece shafts but there could be
clearance problems on some cars.
Trans tunnel mods.
Although I cannot say that it cannot be done, our conclusion is that you really need a larger trans tunnel for the T5 than is in any of the early cars, an exception may be auto trans cars which had wider tunnels. Just getting the trans in is not the only issue. There has to be some room for movement, provision to service the trans, room for the tailshaft and slider yoke to driveshaft universal joint. We also like to be able to remove the trans without having to take off the bellhousing off with it. None of these are a problem on the 70 and up cars with wider tunnels that are essentially 14 inches wide verses 9 inches. On the early 1800s that we have put the T5 in, we have installed the trans tunnel from an 1800E or ES.
Toyota Trans
There are a number of different Toyota trans that can be used. Generally in the US being from the rear drive Corolla, Celica and Supra ( except twin turbo ).
As some of these are quite old, there is an availability problem in many parts of the country - the same is true for parts. The one used in the Dellow kit for the ( W50?) is an old steel case trans, very heavy and with no greater power handling capacity than the M40/41. The T 50 is a much lighter, more modern trans but is harder to adpat as the bellhousing is the trans front bearing carrier, often modied and used in small racecars. The most popular, and most readily available in the US is the W55,56,57, and 58 series from the Supra (also some 2 WD trucks). This is the trans used in the Dellow kit for the 240.
Being a different shape than the T5 this trans may work better in a 122 than the T5 but other parts - throwout bearing, pilot, cutch disc - make the swap more complicated than the T5. We have can make adapter plates for it, but are not yet offering it and other parts to facilitate this swap into a 122 until we do a little more work.
The reason we are offering these trans swap products ( not complete kits ) is that I needed better transmissions for my cars and at the same time customers were not satisfied with the alternatives available.
Please let me know if you have questions.
John
V-Performance.com
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Hey John!!!
Your post answered all the questions I posed to you in my E-mail the other day. Even better that the answers are available to the 122 community at large. Don't waste any time answering my Email on this. I'm gonna hang loose till you finish your development work on the Toyota box installation. In the mean time, if I find a W57 or W58 box, I may just snag it and put in on the shelf for upcoming projects.
Thanks again
Mike T
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In choosing a box, look at the gearing. That is the main difference in the
W55 - 58 series. There are a couple of Toyota sites on the net that have all of
the info on these boxes. One advantage is that they are usually much cheaper than the T5, especially on the west coast.
John
V-Performence.com
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There are two options for the OHV red block. That is to say, there are two commercially available adapters.
Dellow Automotive of Australia WWW.DELLOWAUTO.COM.AU makes an adapter that uses a five-speed from certain Toyota Celica models.
John Parker of Vintage Performance Developments near Syracuse, NY WWW.V-PERFORMANCE.COM sells an adapter for the T-5 transmissions commonly found in Mustangs.
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