posted by
someone claiming to be Frustrated engineering student
on
Mon Jan 19 11:49 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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About a month ago, I got a howling/grinding/whining noise from the front passenger side wheel, so I decided to replace the bearings - even if they weren't to blame for the noise, at least they would be replaced (car has 105,000 on it and the bearings were never replaced in the life of the car.)
Anyway, managed to successfully drive out the old races and press new ones in. Got the parts at autozone, Timken brand races/bearings.
I packed the bearings in Castrol multipurpose wheel grease, and following the Haynes manual, assembled the hub back on the spindle.
I tightened the castle nut gradually to 20 ft/lbs, spinning the hub all the while to seat everything in. At the final torque, the hub took some effort to rotate, and wouldn't spin freely on it's own (not sure if that's good or bad - I might have put too much grease in there).
I then inserted the cotter pin, dust cap, and began to reattach the brake caliper (I had hung it out of the way with a wire earlier).
However, after reattaching/torquing the brake caliper, its now firmly grinding into the rotor and the hub can't rotate at all.
I have a few remaining questions after this fiasco:
Did I miss a crucial step when reinstalling the brake caliper? (They are Girling)
Should the hub (with the new bearings installed/greased) rotate effortlessly, or does it need some small effort for it to rotate?
I am an electrical engineering student in Boston, and not as familiar with the mechanical side of things like you guys are - any response would REALLY be appreciated.
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You have received great advice from the other posts. But you may have a combination of complications. If the outer races were removed or replaced with the wrong tools you may have dammaged the surfaces inside the hub where they seat. If you suspect this as a possible contibuting factor then you can get a hub from the boneyard.
Make sure the mating surface between the hub and rotor is clean.
Simply put, if you have the correct bearing and the caliper is rubbing then something isn't seated right.
Richard
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posted by
someone claiming to be John
on
Mon Jan 19 14:46 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Tapered bearing adjustment is much easier if you skip the torque wrench.
When it's too loose, you can grab the top and bottom of the wheel or brake rotor, push and pull in opposite directions, and it'll wobble a bit back and forth. Tighten until the slack goes away.
Now if you spin the hub, there shouldn't be any drag at this point, gradually tighten and check until there is noticable drag.
Halfway between these two points is a good place, if you need to adjust slightly to get the (new!) cotter pin through, head for the tight side, but not tight enough to cause noticable drag.
It will be a different torque, every time. But it always works!
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posted by
someone claiming to be Frustrated engineering student
on
Mon Jan 19 14:35 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Thanks for the help everyone - all of your posts were extremely helpful. The near-unanimous conclusion from all of your posts was that I tightened the castle nut too tight, so that will be the first thing I correct upon re-installation.
I am definitely going to "seat" the bearings to 20 ft/lbs first, then back the castle nut off a few turns and tighten by hand (or until any play disappears). Hopefully the cotter pin will still fit through the hole. As long as the bearings aren't damaged, I will repack them as an extra precaution.
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It has been peripherally mentioned once or twice in this string but never
specifically addressed. Did you drive the outer races ALL THE WAY IN?
That is the only thing I can think of that would give you enough misalignment
to cause the calipers to drag. If you have your inner races properly greased,
when you take them out again, put them in a ziplock sandwich bag (assuming the
grease is clean) and don't grease them again. Every time you handle them you
risk getting dirt in there, which is most of what destroys the bearings in the
first place. But if there is any doubt that the bearing outer races were
seated all the way in the hub, better pull the hub again and make sure.
Did you push the caliper pistons back before reinstalling? That might also
help.
--
George Downs, Bartlesville, Oklahoma, Central US
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I believe that without the caliper mounted the hub and rotor should spin easily. I've always understood that on final tightening, the bearings should be loaded just enough to eliminate any slop or play in the system. The brake pads will rub some, so when the calipers are mounted the free spin of the rotor will be less. It sounds like you adjusted them too tight to me. This from my fairly limited experience with wheel bearings.
--
Thanks to everyone for the help, Doug C. 81 242 Brick Off Blocks, stock, M46; 86 244, 140k , auto.
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"...an electrical engineering student in Boston..."
Where?
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Don Foster (near Cape Cod, MA)
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posted by
someone claiming to be Frustrated engineering student
on
Mon Jan 19 15:17 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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I was at UMass Boston, I'm now in the process of transferring to Northeastern University
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Oh, so now you can be a co-op student. That's good! Eng'g students with hands-on experience are far better than those who only know the textbook. For example, it pays to know which end of the soldering iron to grab -- reduces the blister count.
Too bad you're not at the UMass Dartmouth campus; I teach there.
Good luck at NEU. It has a great reputation in the COE at UMD, particularly regarding co-op.
--
Don Foster (near Cape Cod, MA)
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>However, after reattaching/torquing the brake caliper, its now firmly grinding >into the rotor and the hub can't rotate at all.
Are you sure it is the caliper that is actually preventing the rotor from turning? As the others have indicated once you preload the bearings you then back it off and then retighten to finger tight before inserting the cotter pin. But you seem to indicate that the rotor is making contact with the caliper. As you know only the pads should be in contact with the rotor. Once you back off the nut and finger tighten it you should be good to go if in fact the caliper is installed properly.
Randy
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The following post should be of help. However, in the text I accidentally mentioned an initial torque value of 40 ft-lbs, and it should only be about 20 ft-lbs. I'll update that soon along with additional information that I've found since writing it. Purchasing new castle nuts is also advisable (about $5 each from a Volvo dealership) since both of mine had some serious scoring on the back side of the nut where it contacts the bearing.
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=682877
God bless,
Fitz Fitzgerald.
--
'87 Blue 245, NA 230K
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posted by
someone claiming to be Rhys
on
Mon Jan 19 11:57 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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The torque you used, 20 foot pounds, is used to seat the new bearings and races only. It is a bit high anyways. After that torque is applied, the nut is then backed off. I normally then tighten it again with fingers only, until no play is detected, and then install the cotter in the nearest aligning hole (there are two normally). This gives enough clearance for the grease to move around, but is tight enough to prevent play.
I think you overtightened the bearings. Remove them and if they show bluing from heating, you will have to replace them again.
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Did you loosen the castle nut?
After torque it to 20lbs, you should back it out and make it figer tight.
In the end, the rotor should be able to spin with very little resistence.
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I'm finally getting near the end of my front end odyssey as I've discussed in a few other recent threads. So now at the wheel bearing replacement stage and did the driver's side as per the Bentley manual and Goatman's superb post but ended up with the same issue as the OP here - a hub that turns by hand but doesn't spin freely. The Bentley manual calls for an initial torque of 40 ft. lb. but here I'm reading 20 ft. lb. Obviously I overtightened, and will give it another try as per the instructions above. But can anyone comment on the discrepancy between Bentley (40 ft. lb.) and the consensus here of 20 ft. lb?
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"I'm finally getting near the end of my front end odyssey"
Yes, it's been an odyssey for you, but you really didn't have to go all the way back to 2004.
All you need to do is tighten the nut so the bearing is seated (wheel won't turn). Then back it off so the wheel turns freely BUT not so loose that you feel the rotor angling in-out.
Go for a drive around the block then see if it needs adjustment.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.
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Yeah, but it such a dramatic thread title. Who could resist the attention that brings? (visions of twisted metal and life-altering tort proceedings...)
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
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Swedish Baklava:
As per Bentley, I've installed the wheel (without the rotor - my brakes have been disconnected) and spin it by hand as I tighten the crown nut. When the castle nut is torqued, etc. as per Bentley, the wheel will spin freely for about 3-5 seconds with a good turn. Without the wheel on, the hub itself does not spin freely at all. It turns by hand but stops immediately if I let go.
Trev29:
Not quite sure what you mean by "wheel won't turn". As above, when I have the crown nut tightened as per Bentley (backed off, etc.) the hub itself won't spin freely. But with the wheel installed I can get about 3-5 seconds of spin before it stops. Does that mean I'm good?
Incidentally, these are NOS SKF bearings made in Germany I picked up off of Ebay. They're probably 25 years old in the original packaging. I subsequently realized that the light grease they were coated in by the manufacturer has hardened and I didn't think to clean them with a solvent or such before installation. The bearings would spin when I took them out of the package but I suppose they were stiff, and I wonder if I should have ensured there was no residue from the old grease before I packed them? I may move to the other side and try that first.
Art/Trev29:
It is with the utmost deference that I address your comments given your ongoing and outstanding contributions to this forum. Please understand that I didn't choose to post in this old thread because of the title in order to garner special attention. Rather, I believe in using the search function to see if my particular problem at hand has been previously addressed, which it most often has. So I prefer not to clutter the board with new threads on topics that have been discussed at length already - particularly where my problems/concerns so closely match a prior poster's, as in this case. If it's a better approach to post new threads on "old topics", then by all means I will take that course in future. In my experience, however, when folks ask these old questions, they are either immediately referred to an old thread anyway, or chastised in some fashion for not using the search function ...
Please understand that though mechanically inclined and ready, willing and mostly able to tackle these jobs, I'm not a mechanic and most jobs I post about are being tackled for the first time. Without someone to show me firsthand how to do these jobs (I'm a visual learner) I rely on brickboard to get me through.
I can't thank you all enough for your assistance over the years - brickboard has easily saved me thousands of dollars. Accordingly, at a minimum I'm more than happy to adopt whatever posting procedures or board etiquette is preferred by those who are on the expert side of things here.
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"Not quite sure what you mean by 'wheel won't turn'."
The idea is to tighten the castle nut to the point that the bearings are seated at which point, because there is no more in-out room, they begin clamping the hub ie. wheel won't turn.
"when I have the crown nut tightened as per Bentley (backed off, etc.) the hub itself won't spin freely."
But it does turn SMOOTHLY with a minimum of effort showing that the bearings are no longer clamping the hub. And that's what you are aiming for.
"But with the wheel installed I can get about 3-5 seconds of spin before it stops. Does that mean I'm good?"
Yes. Seems about right. When you're back on the road and everything is seated after a few miles, you can check and make adjustments if necessary.
"I wonder if I should have ensured there was no residue from the old grease before I packed them?"
Nah. Get the car on the road and don't worry about it.
"Please understand that I didn't choose to post in this old thread because of the title in order to garner special attention."
There was no offense intended. Take a look at the top of the page at the selection box beside the "index for 4/2015 (current)". For whatever reason it will take the unsuspecting into the past where they may proceed to offer help.
"I'm not a mechanic and most jobs I post about are being tackled for the first time."
My concern was that you may get yourself in too deep for a beginner. And another 240 would be abandoned.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.
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Sorry. My comments were not helpful to you.
The board may be used however its users wish. Only recently have threads years old been accessible for adding posts, so it is by habit, I suppose, I have included the old thread as a reference in a new one. Including a URL is a feature of html useful for referencing. The problem is most of the players have moved on since 2003.
When Jarrod enabled write for old threads I tried to lobby him to alter the appearance of the lazarused threads -- maybe ID them as "OLD" or change the color of the font. I know many of us miss that they are old and attempt to reply to posts 10 years old to help people who are probably driving Hondas or Kias now. For me it is just a matter of inspecting the date on each newly appearing "old" thread before jumping in to help.
As regards adjusting the wheel bearings, I understand this is a feel thing, and rather difficult to teach over the internet. You are getting good responses from all.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
If you think nobody cares if you’re alive, try missing a couple of payments.
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Hi 83GLT,
"As per Bentley, I've installed the wheel (without the rotor - my brakes have been disconnected) and spin it by hand as I tighten the crown nut. When the castle nut is torqued, etc. as per Bentley, the wheel will spin freely for about 3-5 seconds with a good turn. Without the wheel on, the hub itself does not spin freely at all. It turns by hand but stops immediately if I let go."
I would go to the other side, check for play by grabbing the tire at 12 & 6 o'clock. If there is no play, then I would try to match that resistance on the side you are working on. It's not like a bicycle wheel where it's going to keep spin.
Good luck & Happy Friday.
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Thanks Swedish Baklava,
I'll try to make this the last post here ... I had the whole front end apart - replacing both strut housings, bushings/suspension parts on both sides. I'm now at the stage where the strut housings are re-installed, all suspension components are in place, dust shields, bla bla bla. So now I'm replacing the wheel bearings before I finally (God willing) move on to the brakes. All of that is to say that both sides do not have the hubs/bearings installed at the moment as I've been doing each stage at both sides simultaneously.
Perhaps I should ask my core question another way:
Is it normal, after installing new wheel bearings and packing with fresh grease, for the hub not to spin freely unless the wheel is attached? Because that is my basic concern here. After packing and installing new bearings the hub (without the wheel attached) does not spin unless I am turning it by hand. With the wheel installed, I do get a few seconds of free spin with a good push. There is no sound at all when the wheel spins.
I do apologize if this is a stupid question.
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Hi 83GL,
"With the wheel installed, I do get a few seconds of free spin with a good push."
During lunch, maybe I can video tape my spinning wheel and post it up here. Maybe you can tell me if mine is installed incorrectly, ;-)
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At the risk of alienating everyone here, why so cryptic? Are you saying I'm ok?
Sorry, but sometimes (especially when sleep-deprived as I am now) I'm not so sharp.
Thanks in advance. And I like Art's idea of posting a new thread with the old link. I'll do that from now on.
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Hi 83GLT,
FYI.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccsbu2hT0MI
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Hi 83GLT,
I am not sure if you are OK. Your definition of a good push is different than mine. That's why.
I took some video but I can't upload now. My brain is fried too. I can post the videos tonight around 10pm. I am in Brooklyn, NY.
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Maybe he minored in drama. Actually, 'Frustrated engineering student' was giving all engineering students a bad name until he mentioned in his last sentence that he was an electrical engineering student.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.
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Indeed!
And fun to hear Don Foster's take on it again.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
I didn’t say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.
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Hi 83GLT,
Did you loosen the nut about half turn? Step #2.
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Yes, I was very careful to methodically follow the Bentley instructions, including turning the nut back a full half turn. Perhaps having read through the other posts here with an emphasis on "feel" for this job, I may take that approach and see where I am - i.e., tightening by hand until I'm somewhere between no play and no resistance.
As with the OP, I'm wondering if I packed too much grease into the hub. Bentley says to fill the cavity between the bearings, so that's what I did. Seemed like a lot of grease to me. It wasn't jammed tight with grease to capacity, I just ensured there was plenty additional grease in there.
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Hi 83GLT,
Are you spinning the hub with or without the wheel?
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