posted by
someone claiming to be mgreader
on
Thu Apr 24 12:52 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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Hi-
Thanks for responding to my inquiry about tires. It's been a few years since I had a 122, but I seemed to recall them telling me the lasty time I got tires that they were the same as old beetles.
Anyhow, next question, what about performance upgrades? Anything recommended?
I am not looking for a super-hot car, just some little tweeks here and there.
Matt
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posted by
someone claiming to be mgreader
on
Thu Apr 24 14:18 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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I am pretty happy with the engine as it is. It's in the process of a valve job with hardened seats. It is an everyday driver that is in pretty great shape overall. I am planning on keeping it forever, so I would like to get as many things done to it as possible now while I have the $ on hand.
As for the exhaust, what can be done to it while keeping the engine stock? I am kind of ignorant as far as that goes...
The SU carbs haven't given me any trouble, I have had 4 122's with them, but some people make a big fuss over them, what is the difference between them and a Weber?
I am planning on the full suspension upgrade from IPD.
Know anything about minilite wheels that are a tad bigger/wider than the stock ones?
I also am curious about the 240 seat/seatbelt swap, anyone have experience with that?
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A freind of mine has a 65 122s with the 240 seat belts and seats. Much, much more comfortable than the original 122 seats. As for the exhaust, there are a few ways to go. First, you can get a header. These can get expensive. You could also get the dual outlet intake/exhaust manifold and the "y" pipe to go with it. I've seen this setup on a 122 with a 2 1/4 inch exhaust into a Magnaflow muffler. More power, and a great sound.
Anarchist_ns
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80 242 350ci
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If the head is off you are already 1/2 the way toward swappng the cam. A wild and crazy cam won't do a whole lot for an otherwise stock engine, but one of the milder performance cams (IPD Street perf cam, or others, or even jsut a stock 'D' grind cam) will perk up an engine with a 'C' cam nicely. Put new timing gears and new lifters in with the new cam - unless you like the process of putting cams in so much you want to repeat often...
SU carbs will be fine and feed the engine through quite a few performance upgrades - although at some points you might need to replace the needles. Those double barrel downdraft Weber carb conversions are not performance items - they are an adequate replacement for worn SU's on a stock engine. If you plan on modifying the engine for more power you'll hit the limit on that Weber much faster than with twin SU's. Dual DCOE Weber's make more power - but are usually overkill on a stock engine (unless they are choked way down - in wich case you might as well have the cheaper SU's).
When rebuilding a B18 engine you can get the cylinders bored to 89 mm and use stock B20 pistons - as well as sourcing a B20 head to put on top. At that point you will have spent a decent amount of money to duplicate a B20 engine - not really worth it with B20's not being either too hard to find or very expensive. Just find a junkyard B20 to rebuild instead. On a B20 you can (if you want) overbore to 92 MM and use B21 sized pistons for an extra 200 cc and noticabley more torque. Follow up the increased displacement with breathing improvements (cam, head work, exhaust) and you'll even make that increased torque high up in the RPM range.
Ignition systems are often glossed over - some figure if it's firing at all then its doing it's job. But sparking the mixture isn't quite graded on a pass/fail system. There are qualitative differences. Getting a powerful aftermarket coil such as a Mallory Voltmaster can make a difference in power at full throttle. As can replacing the points with much steadier and accurate pointless ignition systems like the Crane XR700.
Of course, all the above things are incremental improvements - you could just bypass them all and go straight for the jugular with John Parker's supercharger system (http://www.v-performance.com/). Pricey and you might wait a while - but there's not any other likely way you are going to see 200+ HP out of a B20.
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posted by
someone claiming to be cameron
on
Fri Apr 25 05:16 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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Several good points.
However, reagarding cam changes: Boris' 122 runs a stock B20B with 2" exhaust and an R cam - no other mods (not even head porting), no E head. 0-60 in the 8 second range - MUCH quicker than when new.
Even so, not a cam I'd recommend for someone who wants easy driveability. It's a wrangler of a car (which is plenty cool in my book!).
Best,
Cameron
Rose City
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Just to clarify...
The basic supercharger kit on a stock B20B produces around 155 bhp, which is all most people would want. Higher boost versions make well over 200 bhp, but various other mods are required to run those boost levels.
I wouldn't say that a normally aspirated street B20 can't make 200 bhp...
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Does bolting a stock B20F head on count as internal work? :^)
I think with 8.7:1 CR you could run pretty decent boost levels. Although you have to be more careful of preignition with a steel head - aluminum heads, I guess, prevent hot spots better.
KGTrimning sells special 'Turbo' heads with 7.5 - 8:1 CR and big exhaust valves.
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Of course a B20F head is a good way of dropping compression a bit... but it's not necessary with the basic kit's 5-6 lbs of boost, and 155 bhp with corresponding torque increases completely transforms the car (so I'm told -- I certainly have not driven one). There should be no detonation problems using a vacuum advance distributor and premium gas at this level, although the working pressure is roughly equivalent to having 13:1 compression in a normally aspirated motor.
The current solution to higher boost than that is detonation-sensing ignition; the solution under development is a full EMS system, both adding substantially to the cost of the project. Then there's a "wall" at which the stock exhaust ports will simply not flow more regardless of the boost level, so you're into a porting job. After that point, you'll want forged pistons.
I think it's a terrific system, but 200+ bhp seems to come out to much the same price no matter how you go about it.
Regarding the KGT heads, current thinking is that lowering CR by much in order to run more boost is counterproductive. That's how it was done back when people were first playing around with turbos, but check out the specs on late-model turbo cars and you'll see quite respectable CR and relatively low boost -- remember that horsepower has nothing to do with acceleration (nothing, really nothing); it's the area under the torque curve that matters.
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They have a point on the turbo cars - when the turbo is off boost the very low CR makes for a very lethargic engine. For general driving around lower peak boost and higher CR makes for a smoother package - not so much of an on-off power delivery.
But with a supercharger you aren't off boost as much as with a turbo, although the 'charger doesn't make much boost at low rpms. So a low CR/high boost supercharged engine would still be a bit peaky, but with a more linear buildup of power. Better than with a turbo, anyhow.
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posted by
someone claiming to be cameron
on
Fri Apr 25 09:50 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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I found that, with the lowest boost pulley (which maxes out at 4lbs with my current setup) that at idle, the gauge shows 20" vacuum. At 70mph steady on the throttle, it shows >15" vacuum. But the moment you mash the gas pedal, the gauge immediately snaps to 4lbs boost and stays there while the revs increase. At revs below approximately 1500 the boost takes a moment to build (a short moment). At higher speeds, the transition from vacuum to boost is very, very quick.
Lots of people are interested in 'how much boost' an engine is running. The pulley I'm using produces 4lbs on my engine. This same pulley with a stock head and stock exhaust produces notably more boost (7 or 8lbs if I remember right) but much LESS power. John (Parker) ran a stock engine (B20F) and stock exhaust at 10lbs, then changed the head, cam and exhaust - but ran the same pulley. Boost dropped to 6 or 7, horsepower increased by 30.
It's not so much how much boost you run, it's how much air and fuel you can get through the engine.
Best,
Cameron
Rose City
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It's not so much how much boost you run, it's how much air and fuel you can get through the engine.
Zackly. And how efficiently you can transfer energy from that air and fuel to the pistons.
8^)
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Just some info, no intent to be argumentative...
1) The charger makes full boost right from idle, unlike a turbo.
2) The intake still has negative pressure in 95% of driving. The boost only applies when lots of throttle is used.
3) A mild cam, with little overlap, is used so the charger doesn't blow the intake charge right out the exhaust port.
So, unless the motor is intended to be driven at or near full throttle only, we still don't want to drop the CR very much. For the only (so far) motor specially built to take the blower, CR is 8.4:1.
I believe John hasn't reduced the CR on his 1800ES testbed car's motor, and he's now getting in excess of 250 bhp out of it with 11-12 lbs boost.
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255 HP - Yowser!!! (tries to imagine 2250 lb PV with 255 HP - :^D )
Some types of superchargers don't pump as efficiently at low rpms - but I guess those are the more 'centrifugal' types - I guess John's kit is using some sort of positive displacement with very tight tolerances if it pumps full pressure (or even close) at very low rpm's?
Have you seen how the variable CR works on some of the newest Saab engines? In an attempt to solve the peak boost = low CR to avoid detonation -vs.- low throttle = high CR for efficiency and throttle response problem. They split the block between the crank and the cylinders. A hinge is placed along one sode of the block and a computer controlled actuator (or several?) is placed on the other. Under low boost/off throttle conditions the block hinges closed a little so the pistons go higher and a higher CR is obtained. As the boost climbs the hinge opens to lower the CR dynamically. Best of both worlds! (Cost, complexity, longevity, future repair costs, etc disregarded!)
http://www.saab.com/main/GLOBAL/en/vepsilon/
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It's a Lysholm-effect charger (Swedish, no less). John says he's got to be really careful driving the thing, and I don't doubt it. Even my humble MPPE is a bear in traffic, not because it isn't tractable, but because the difference between slowing down or rear-ending the car in front is about 2mm of travel on the gas pedal.
Hinged --o-O-o-- motor?!
Cost, complexity, longevity, future repair costs, etc disregarded!
LOL!
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Well...as far as that goes, if you stick with a stock engine, a fancy exhaust ain't gonna help a whole lot. Perhaps a little though... go with a dual downpipe manifold from a 140, and take it to a muffler shop and have them put on a 2" system, and a free flow muffler of some sort. THat won't cost a whole lot more (if any) than a stock exhaust.
The carbs...yea, keep the SUs. Don't fix that which ain't broke, and a weber aint' gonna be much improvement if any.
Maybe consider a high compression head gasket if available...as long as you already have the head off. That's an easy one, but again, it won't make much difference, and it might force you to use higher octane fuel.
Biggest thing you can do to liven things up is suspension, and to be honest, any serious suspension upgrade puts a lot more stresses on other parts. Since you want to keep and drive this thing forever, I would just go with some good shocks (I like KYBs.. bang for the buck), and gitcha some wider wheels and good tires. Again, don't go overkill...
Minilites are hard to find anymore, and expensive. But the bolt pattern is common. For moderate upgrade, I really like the pressed steel wheels off a Ford Ranger. The 4wd versions had 15" wheels in either 5.5, 6, or 7" wide. (the 2wd Rangers have 14" rims that might not fit) I'd go with the 5.5 inchers, and get a good set of 185/65-15 tires, or perhaps 195/65. Them, and good shocks will make a significant handling improvement.. Tires too wide can cause other driveability issues. The poly bushings help too I expect, but they will cause some of them suspension bracket breaking stresses. I'd go with stock bushings... but do replace them all.
I would also not recommend the swaybars and springs until you have your tire situation sorted out. I drove a 1800 once with all the ipd stuff, but stock tires, and the thing was just downright scary. Not to mention a harsher ride.
Pretty much all the stuff I've mentioned above is exactly what I did to my 1800s soon after I bought it. (I didn't do springs or sways) That was a quarter million miles ago. Nothing so outlandish as to create reliability problems, and its still just as comfortable to drive as ever, and it definitely livened the car up a bit.
I think you are taking the right approach with keeping it mostly stock... with performance mods, they will only perform as well as the weakest link will let them, so if you plan to do a single thing to the max, you best plan on taking it all the way... and I get the feeling you really aren't after a race car.
Good luck with it, and drive safely!
-Matt
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posted by
someone claiming to be mgreader
on
Fri Apr 25 00:57 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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Hey Matt-
I guess I really like these cars stock. In a way, I'd like to go blowing by people on the freeway, but I guess poking along in the slow lane is fine for now.
I had KYBs installed on my 62 sedan, and it made a great improvement over the orignals (Bilsteins?) It's been years and I can't remember, I just remember the feeling that I had a practically new car on my hands after replacing all the bushings/front end suspension.
With this 67, I have bought a really SOLID car. I don't think I have ever seen one that didn't have bubbling on the tops of the front fenders, either around the headlights or at the top rear of the fender. This one has completely solid floors and spare tire well- The first one I have had had like this.
I hadn't driven the car more than one day (Christmas Eve), and Christmas morning, it wouldn't start. My dad and I figured that it was either needed a tune up, or the valves were burnt, since it had started fine the day before the cold snap...
It turned out that the valves were burned, sadly. I guess you get that sort of thing buying a car over the internet sight unseen.
I think with just replacing the front end suspension components I'll be happy enough with the performance. I think I might go for a little louder exhaust, though, I like the threatening sound of them...
I found a place that imports new minilites, at a cost of about 400 dollars per wheel. I just might spring for it, as well as the sliding webasto sunroof.
Has anyone done the little convenience improvements that the Swedish Embassy has on their site?
Matt R.
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..."jeah baby!" [quote: A. Powers], I have!... and I wrote them up and/or made them available as kits, 'cause I really think they make the car work better, more reliable, more fun, and able to be confidently used as a daily driver, etc. etc. ...
Cheers!
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Yep, same tires as old beetles.
Performance upgrades... I sense a long thread coming up here.
Suspension (in this order of priority):
Urethane and/or Delrin bushings throughout.
Bilstein or Koni shocks.
Stiffer springs, optionally lowering the car as well.
Larger front swaybar, optionally adding a rear swaybar.
Wider wheels and tires.
Power:
Evaluate what you have first. Worn carbs and distributors don't make much power. Neither do badly adjusted valves and generally poor tuning. Nor does the stock tiny exhaust system. That stuff is relatively cheap to fix, so simply fixing it is a lot of "bang for the buck."
Replacing a worn B18 with a sound used B20 is a good step up in torque. If you have a sound motor and you don't want to rebuild, about all you can do is go for a bigger cam and lose some low end power.
Well-built street performance motors start at around $3500, if you do most of your own work, and go up from there. You can pay more for a badly-built street performance motor as well. If you really want to pay a lot, you can double the stock power (or more) and still have a tractable car.
It's easy to convert to an overdrive transmission if you have the plain 4-speed, and well worth the trouble. If you have an automatic, the conversion's a lot harder.
If you have a '67 or later sedan, not a wagon, you can swap out the rear end for an 1800E/ES model without a lot of fuss, which gives you 4-wheel disc brakes. Not that the stock brakes are inadequate...
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Well, it all depends on what you are looking for. With stock suspension, you can't really run your car with too much savvy. I suggest some sway bars, sport springs, and poly bushings from IPD. They really tighten up the chassis of the car. For engine upgrades, there really is no special tweak that will gain you instant horsepower. A cam upgrade will help, as will a better exhaust. You could throw on a weber carb, but these can get rather pricey.If you really want to go wild, I suggest you look for a B20E. This motor has higher compression, (10.0 to 1)bigger intake ports, and bigger exhaust ports. It was rated at 130 HP. Hope this helps.
Anarchist_ns
--
80 242 350ci
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