Some dude was trying to determine if his car was a late '82 model or an early '83. He mentioned something about Fram earl filters, and you responded with a comment along the lines of "they're the orange kiss of death, don't use 'em."

Curious about why you (and so many other BB'ers) have come to this conclusion. I've been running Fram filters on my '84 245DL for years. The engine has never been overhauled at 287K (not even so much as a valve job!), and runs just fine. No valvetrain noise, no oil light at all when started first thing in the morning. In fact, oil press gauge comes right up to normal reading in under 5 seconds. I've never heard Fram filters (mfg'd by Allied Signal, you'd think they'd know *something*) badmouthed by anyone else except some of the members of this board. In fact, if you look at the Swedishbricks FAQ under "Oils, filters" you'll see:

"Consumer Reports declared Fram as the best because of it's ability to filter the "right-sized" particles. Their belief was that it was important to filter only the big particles in the oil which would not fit between the bearing surfaces, thus causing damage. Their opinion was that it made no sense to try and filter particles which were smaller and which would pass right through the bearing surfaces or other tolerences in the engine. Filter attempted to trap all the smaller particles were the ones that would clog early, triggering the by-pass and allowing unfiltered oil to circulate in the engine. Because of the Fram media design/philsophy, they resisted clogging the longest which CR thought was important. They tested the filters by contaminating oil with some type of particles of varying sizes, running it through the filters and then analyzing the oil to see what size

particles remained. They also specifically tested for clogging rate and downrated filter brands which clogged too quickly. Again, the ones that tended to clog were those which were set up to filter very fine particles."

This is at http://www.swedishbricks.net/faq/oilsfilters.html#filter

I also know a diesel mechanic who swears by Fram products. He's got an old F-250 with over 300K on the clock that he still drives everyday. He wouldn't even think of using any other brand of filter on it.

So what gives?? I'm not trying to start a fight (okay, maybe that's a little naive); I'm genuinely curious.

rob

i don't want to bad-mouth but, i'll throw my 2cents in as well. first, i want to thank you and don for yesterday. i had started the day in a sh!*#y mood but, after reading you two going at it, all i could do is laugh. no need for tempers to raise but, it was still funny. no matter what anyone says, or supplies, to you rob, use what you want. it is your car but, it's also your pocket the expenses will come from.

anyway, the allied signal issue. i once (and only once) worked in the office of a large cold-drawn steel company with a plant in cartersville. one of my customers was allied signal. this plant was in south carolina and i'm not sure what they actually produced there. anyway, my first impression was that they were a great company for the exacting tolerances they DEMANDED. after speaking with some of the guys in the plant and finding out what allied would actually accept (large degrees of tolerance differences), i quickly changed my mind. besides, the guy i always spoke to at allied was a complete a$$. from that point on, i determined that anything made by allied signal would not go into any of my vehicles.

one thing that i struggled with and you may also, is the difference in microns. a size spec of that small dimention, was meaningless to me. it made no difference to me what-so-ever as long as it would fit or do the job. after my stint at the steel plant, that has changed. one of the plant workers had what i thought was a VERY thin piece of aluminum foil at his table. i asked him about it and he said it was a steel shim used for the cold-drawn steel. as he explained it to me, i was amazed that something so thin (i could see shadows from my fingers through it) could means so much in tolerances. from that, i drew my conclusions: if it is to work hard or for long durations, get the exact and best you can; if it is occasional or little effort, get what's strong and go from there.

what does anybody have to say about bosch filters (the kind you buyat autozone)???

They're ok, made by Champion Labs in Illinois. Same company that makes the Deutsch and many other store-brand filters. You could probably get them to build a Roger-brand filter if you ordered enough. Great party favor at Volvo meets....&^)

gee thanks....now i feel real good <> do you, or anyone else, know the answer to this: in a past posting i thought i had read that if i use synthetic 0W-30(??) was a good grade to use. is it?? i live in the atlanta, ga area and it gets *real cold* here..........

thanks for making me feel good...........

Here’s my 2 cents …

There are 4 cars in our family:

1986 VOLVO 740T 157,000 m

1986 MAZDA 626 204,117 m

1989 TOYOTA Camry 174,752 m

1990 PLYMOUTH Voyager mini van 172,138 m

What oil and what brand filter do I use ?

WHICHEVER one is on sale at the time.

I couldn’t care less about the brand name or the reputation based on

biased opinions. The key here is: CHANGE oil, and the filter when

required, and don’t worry about the name.

Keep’m lubed, and drive them daily…

P.S. I will never buy a new car. It’s the lousiest investment going.

As much as you want to think that Fram filters have no effect whatsoever on Volvo engines, you sure as heck are wrong. I've had 2 244 volvos, a 91 (don't have anymore) and an '87. I have changed the oil and filter on both of 'em myself, b/c it's an easy task. Both of 'em, I put a Fram filter on. BOTH of 'em, the oil pressure light comes on for 2-3 seconds when I start the car cold. The independent shop I take 'em to explained the exact stuff Don and everyone else was saying about the check-valve. Next time I change the oil in the '87, I will use a Mann/Volvo filter, to ensure my 260K+ car keeps on rolling.

But...I will have to say I used Fram filters on one of my previous cars (a Geo Prizm) and had no problems with it. Besides, Prizms, Corollas, and the like are what I call "disposable" cars--drive 'em, maintain 'em, but throw away after about 150K...

Just my opinions, too.

Joe.

.......The Manns are not worth the $18 a year I pay for them. I think I will save the $3 and start buying Frams.

What the hell is the point? Even if you drive 50K a year combined on your cars and change every 3K, you save what $20?

Like Dubya's victory margin in Florida, $3, or $20 or even $50 is statistically insignificant.

Dubya's victory margin is "statistically insignificant"??? One vote is all it takes to make a hugh difference in how the country will be governed, espescially in regard to the Supreme Court justice appointments.

I basically agree with your point that $3 or $20 or $50 over the course of a year is not "significantly" different. However the analogy does not hold.

And by the way, I don't support Fram oil filters, nor have I ever. And I work for Honeywell (as of the first of this year, Allied Signal IS Honeywell).

But if you use Fram with success, more power to you.

I know one vote is all it takes, I got carried away in making my point.

My point is that the extra cash for Mann filters is .0004 percent of a 50K per year salary, which is considerably more than Mr. Bushes victory margin. Included only as a contempory "drop in the bucket" type analogy.

I cant stand Al Bore or his wussy running mate, and will pull my hair out if I hear "fair and complete count" one more time.

See this site:

http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/xguo/Car/oilsfilters.html#filter

Hopefully it will give you the information you need to see why the Fram filter is inferior to Volvo oil filters. Here are some highlights:

"The most important part of an oil filter is the filter paper itself. Volvo uses "dimpled" paper to prevent the folds from laying against each other. Some of the competition use a smooth material that leaves less surface area for filtration."

"And there's more filter paper in a Volvo oil filter than in any of the other brands we tested. The more paper, the more efficient the filter."

"Volvo's special seal and threading helps prevent leaks by holding the filter more securely in position. And the Volvo filter is designed to counteract the vibration inherent in a 4-cylinder engine. This too helps keep the filter firmly attached to your car."

"Here's another major difference: ...the end wall of a genuine Volvo filter...It's made of a sturdy metal alloy, designed to keep unfiltered oil from leaking back into the engine."

"The end wall in this competitor is made of cardboard and can increase the possibility of leakage. [Drawing of competitor's endwall which is all crinkly and made of cardboard] Why would anyone want to take a chance with a filter like this?"

"The Volvo oil filter also has two individual and vitally important valves. One prevents oil from draining back when the engine is shut off, and the other opens automatically if blocked or under excessive pressure. Some of the competition use a combination valve, and if it gets clogged, no oil reaches the engine. This can lead to serious problems, even severe engine damage."

A Fram filter probably won't kill your engine(s), but for the marginal savings, I'll pass on Fram filters. I'd much rather use a Mann oil filter. I bought a case of 10 Mann filters for $36 delivered to my front door. How much do you pay for Fram filters? How many oil filters do you use in a year?

I haven't had the rod knocking sound on startup in our fleet because I don't use the Fram filters anymore. The last vehicle I used Fram on was my Toyota FJ60 (Landcruiser Wagon). When I changed the oil, the filter would be empty because the check valve did not work and the oil would drain back into the sump. I had similar probelms years ago in with Hastings filters used on a Volkswagen. You should have heard the rod knock when the engine started. When I talked to the dealer service rep, the first question he asked was "Are you using a Hastings filter?" I'm sure I had a look of shock on my face-there were many brands of filters out there, and he knew what I was using. Just because you haven't had problems doesn't mean you should keep using Fram. I don't trust Consumer Reports on testing oil filters. They just aren't in that business, ordinarily.

Rob,

Fram's are bad filters, plain and simple. They've got a cardboard seperator in them, they drain back (Got valve noise when you start up? That's why.), and they're manufactured to lousy tolerances, which is why the minimopar guy (whose site must have moved somewhere else, the old link doesn't work) posted a letter from a former Fram engineer to that effect. Which I actually have saved somewhere, but can't find. This guy, Russell Knize, bought every major brand of filter and cut them apart and tested them, then posted the results with pictures. One manufacturer tried to shut him down (probably Champion Labs, because they make everything from Bosch to Pennzoil), but he persisted. He even had a page for German-made filters, and gave the Mann a thumbs-up, btw.

The ONLY filters he didn't like at all were Fram. Some other ones were marginal, but only Fram spurred him to issue a _warning_. At the time I read this, I was using Fram in my Camry, which always clattered when it started up, and always took an extra second to shut off the oil light. I went out and bought a Toyota filter, and it started quietly (the oil light barely flickered), with me knashing my teeth at $@#@ing Fram. Many of the BB'ers went and looked at his results.

It's hard to take because they were once a good company, but Allied Signal apparently "knows" how to cut costs more than they "know" how to make a good product.

As far as Consumer Reports goes, they're imbeciles, plain and simple. I used to like them (and I still like the idea of them), but the current management has made them a laughingstock. Where else can you find someone who rates Craftsman tools above Snap-On because they're cheaper?!? And they did an oil test and said that oil doesn't break down until it has 7000 miles on it. And all CD players sound alike, according to CR, as do amplifiers. And you should buy speakers according to how the graph looks. These are folks who--to quote H.L. Mencken__"...know the price of everything and the value of nothing". They almost never recommend Volvo, btw. The repair record is too spotty.

So Don's absolutely right and you're not. But there is a fellow on Swedishbricks who also lives in California and also uses Fram. Maybe you two can start a cult. &^)

Wow! What a fun thread! Don, you get all the good conversations . . . Next I bet you're going to say something like, "Since a Fram's oil filtering efficiency is imaginary, you'll need a "j operator" if you're going to use one . . ." (hehe).

Carl, you made an interesting comment: "It's hard to take because they were once a good company, but AlliedSignal apparently 'knows' how to cut costs more than they 'know' how to make a good product." Well. As a 1993 participant of the "Allied Signal Dynamic Employment Opportunity Program" (I was one of thousands who got laid off by Larry Bossidy, Neutron Jack's protege, in the early- to mid-90's), I can tell you that the share holders' interest (read: "cost-cutting") is the number one issue on "their" priority list.

BTW, there is no more AlliedSignal (officially there is no space between the two words). The name disappeared as a part of the Honeywell-Allied Signal merger which was consumated the first of this year. And now GE is a acquiring Honeywell, so in many market sectors, the "Honeywell" name will disappear, too.

As far as the Fram filter question goes, 20 years ago, when I owned a V12 Ferrari 330, it was made quite clear to me NOT to use Fram filters . . . This point has been made to me over the years, from different sectors of the automotive world. Whether it's been hig-revving, oil-pressure-dependent engines (like an Alfa), or torquey slow-burners (like a BB Chevy), it's been the same thing. And to emphasize the point, when I lived in Dallas, I saw (at Point West Volvo in Irving) the difference in the filters - just as others have seen and reported. Specifically, the parts guy had cut open a number of different filters to visually demonstrate the differences. Besides the additional filtration area a Volvo filter has, I believe the most important difference is the check valve (I know some other filters have this feature, too). I'm sure you know, something like 75% (or is it as high as 90%?) of an engine's wear occurs at start-up. So (clearly) the quicker the oil gets in there the better.

Rob --

It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it, I'll give it if asked, and I don't give a rat's ass whether you like it or dislike it. In fact, I'll be happier if you and a million others continue buying Fram and avoid Mann—that'll keep the price down on Mann.

Years ago I used Fram because they were always a great deal, on sale two for $7.99 (little did I know). So I used 'em. And wondered why I could hear my rod bearings for the first few seconds and it took 5-10 seconds for the oil light to go off.

About 10 years ago I bought an '81 245 with a seized cam. I figured a new head would fix it. After fixing it for $20 (turns out you generally don't need a head for that failure), I removed the Fram filter and installed a Volvo filter. The car's still running, 10 years and 65,000 miles later. (The PO said, "Oh, my ex husband always changed the oil himself!" Bingo! Frams from K-Mart!)

So my data conflicts with Consumer Reports (and I trust them), but I believe my experiences more than what others say, even Consumer's Union.

And with Mann filters costing around $4 each after shipping, why use an orange filter that won't stop drain-back?

Don Foster (near Cape Cod, MA)

I agree totally with Don here, I wouldn't use anything but a Volvo filter (relabeled Mann filter), not only does it filter better it has the best anti-drainback mechinism i've seen!

i've seen other filters (similar to fram) that claim to have anti-drain back valves but i've never seen one work as well as Mann.

Hell, all my cars have the oil light go out before the engine's even started. On 2 of my cars in particular it will go out and my pressure gauge will show good pressure after a MAX of 3 revs!!!!!!

I don't care if they cost 5x more, i'ld still be buying them!

"It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it, I'll give it if asked, and I don't give a rat's ass whether you like it or dislike it. In fact, I'll be happier if you and a million others continue buying Fram and avoid Mann—that'll keep the price down on Mann."

Okay, Don. Do we feel better now? I merely asked a question; I do not want to argue with you. I wanted to know why you thought so poorly of Fram filters-THAT IS ALL! Please don't try to start a flamewar over this.

"Years ago I used Fram because they were always a great deal, on sale

two for $7.99 (little did I know). So I used 'em. And wondered why I

could hear my rod bearings for the first few seconds and it took 5-10

seconds for the oil light to go off."

Your oil pump was failing, your con rod bearings were failing, or a combination of both. If you really believe that your oil filter was the cause, you *must* be getting senile. I have three old, high mileage Volvos running on Fram filters, and NOT ONE OF THEM exhibits the kind of behavior that you describe. BTW, I have never had the oil light on any of my bricks stay on after the other idiot lights go out.

"About 10 years ago I bought an '81 245 with a seized cam. I figured a

new head would fix it. After fixing it for $20 (turns out you

generally don't need a head for that failure), I removed the Fram

filter and installed a Volvo filter. The car's still running, 10

years and 65,000 miles later. (The PO said, "Oh, my ex husband

always changed the oil himself!" Bingo! Frams from K-Mart!)"

How'd you fix a seized cam for $20? If the cam was really seized, chances are the (ex)wife let the oil run low, or never changed it. That will seize a cam in a jiffy (no pun intended). Your claim is like saying, "I put the XYZ filter on, started the engine, and it simultaneously threw all four con rods in a cloud of smoke. Then I magically fixed the engine with the $20 bill in my back pocket, put on the ABC filter (at 2x $), and it purred like a kitten for another 200K." Sorry Don, I'm not buying it.

I think what you're realling saying is that you bought an '81 245 with a broken timing belt, PO told you the engine was trashed because it wouldn't turn over, and under the hood there just happened to be an old, discolored and leaking (because the oil hadn't been changed in a few milleniums) Fram filter. Yeah, my timing belt breaks too when I forget to replace it, but I don't blame it on my oil filter. :-)

So what's your beef here, Rob? Near here there is an indy import parts store. The owner has cut oil filters open, and put them on display. The orange one is nearly empty. Hardly any paper at all. Less filtering surface should equal less filter life. That is OK if you want to change it a lot, but do you? The orange filter at Bone Mart or AutosRus costs pennies less than the Mann filter at the import parts store. So what's the big deal?

Ideal particle size? Wow! Isn't that what they told the asbestos workers?

"How'd you fix a seized cam for $20?"

I forgot to answer your question — the $20 was for a new t-belt and alignment pin.

Don Foster (near Cape Cod, MA)

Rob --

That "failing" oil pump has persisted from 116k miles (when I bought the car and first heard the rap-rap on startup) 'til now. And now it's quiet—and the car has 347k miles. Nope, not a failing oil pump. Tired, maybe, but it's truly amazing how a decent oil filter rejuvinated my "failing" pump.

"I merely asked a question; I do not want to argue with you. I wanted to know why you thought so poorly of..."

OK, Rob, I answered your question about why I think Fram filters suck. So why are you still digging at it?

"Sorry Don, I'm not buying it."

And once again, I don't really care. Because you don't understand something or don't know how to do it doesn't mean it can't be understood or can't be done.

"...you're realling saying is that you bought an '81 245 with a broken timing belt..."

Please — give me a little credit. Don't you think I know to reach behind the t-belt cover to turn the cam sprocket and test the cam?

Indeed, a broken belt, sheared alignment pin, and the cam tighter'n a pig's ass. But knowing how to patiently rework and polish the bearing surfaces by hand seems to have worked for me. That cam has 5 bearing surfaces, so is very forgiving. As I said, that was ten years and 65k miles ago, and the car still runs great.

The cam seized when the car was sitting in a July traffic jam with the AC on. Hotter than hell, and the top end lost pressure. Plugged filter? Maybe, but any decent filter (emphasis on "decent") has a bypass valve. When I dropped the pan, it was spotless—they had changed the oil often. No, I believe the 160k miles with those orange filters was severe service, and took its toll on the engine, top end first.

Don Foster (near Cape Cod, MA)

"That "failing" oil pump has persisted from 116k miles (when I bought the car and first heard the rap-rap on startup) 'til now. And now it's quiet—and the car has 347k miles. Nope, not a failing oil pump. Tired, maybe, but it's truly amazing how a decent oil filter rejuvinated my "failing" pump."

Wait a minute, Don. You said in your original reply that you have put 65,000 miles on the car since you bought it ten years ago. And yet now it has 347,000 on it? Better have that odometer fixed, Don, because that's only 181k.

"OK, Rob, I answered your question about why I think Fram filters suck. So why are you still digging at it?"

Because in the original post you were very hostile, e.g. "I don't give a rat's ass if you don't like it." If you want to be an asshole, Don, two can play at that game...

"Indeed, a broken belt, sheared alignment pin, and the cam tighter'n a pig's ass. But knowing how to patiently rework and polish the bearing surfaces by hand seems to have worked for me. That cam has 5 bearing surfaces, so is very forgiving. As I said, that was ten years and 65k miles ago, and the car still runs great."

Your mind must really be slipping in your old age, Don. Let's go back to your original reply, posted today 11/26 at 15:49. I'm looking at http://www.brickboard.com/READER/?file=20115821&referer=RWD&fromindex=1

for your reference.

> About 10 years ago I bought an '81 245 with a seized cam. I figured a new head would fix it. After fixing it for $20 (turns out you generally don't need a head for that failure), I removed the Fram filter and installed a Volvo filter. The car's still running, 10 years and 65,000 miles later. <

Okay, you bought the car from the original owner with 116,000 miles on it, and now, 65K later, you're trying to tell me that you have ran up 347k? Just curious-does your nose grow when you post on the BB??

"No, I believe the 160k miles with those orange filters was severe service, and took its toll on the engine, top end first."

But Don, I thought that you said it only had 116K on it when you bought it "about ten years ago"? Just can't make up our mind tonight, can we??

Top end seized. BFD! How do you prove that the oil filter caused this? Just because the pan was clean doesn't mean that the oil was changed regularly. And even if it was, she could have let it run low on a regular basis. I know people that never check their oil between changes, drive their cars like they are in the Indy 500, and then are surprised when only 2 of the 4 qts. they poured in there drain out. Maybe one of the oil passages was blocked because she never changed the air filter and all kinds of crap accumulated in the engine?? Who knows.

You can't seem to leave it alone. You're determined to find something I'm guilty of so you can point and say, "SEE?"

As with many people on this board, I have (and have had) a number of Volvos. You've intermingled my discussion of several of these.

So let me be give you a chronology of two cars.

Car #1:

1982 blue 245DL 4/OD, bought by me, totaled, about 1987 for $2000. It had 116K miles when bought. After repairing the nose, I registered and drove it.

It would not maintain oil pressure. I dropped the pan and cleaned out about 2" of sludge. PO had NOT maintained the car.

In those days, I used Fram filters 'cause they were cheap. Using Fram filters, this car would rap on start-up, and the oil light remained on for 5-10 seconds—sometimes less, sometimes more. At the time, I didn't think much of it.

When I switched to Volvo or Mann filters, the rap-rap and oil light went away. I thought A LOT about that!

I still have that car, now with 347k miles, and NO rap-rap or 10-second oil light. The car is a genuine rustbucket beater, and will soon go to the boneyard. I'll keep the engine 'n tranny, though.

Car #2:

1981 blue 245DL A/T, bought with a seized cam in 1990 for $1,200. The odometer showed about 160K miles.

It had a Fram filter when I bought it.

The PO said, "Oh, my ex used to change the oil 'n filter all the time."

After repairing the cam, I pulled the suspect headbolt (passage clean), and then dropped the pan (clean as a whistle). The PO HAD changed the oil and filter regularly.

We drove the car often, but short trips. In 1995 I sold the car to a friend—and he's still driving it, now with about 230k or 235k miles on the odo. That's the 65k delta.

"Top end seized. BFD! How do you prove that the oil filter caused this?"

I can't prove anything, and don't feel a need to. I never ran the '81 (seized cam) with a Fram filter; so don't know if it rapped. I immediately installed a Mann filter. Today, it starts and runs quietly.

But the seized cam and Fram's reputation have shied me away from those orange POS filters.

I ran the '82 (which had the sludged-up pan) using Fram filters for 2-3 years, and it rapped on start-up like crazy—and did this from 116K to about 160k miles when I switched to Volvo/Mann filters. The rap 'n delayed oil light disappeared.

Conclusion? Fram filters don't hold oil in the system. Add that to my observation that the '81 engine (seized cam) was clean (changed oil often) had a seized cam, and was "broken in" using Frams (most likely), and I decided that dollar-for-dollar, why use the orange POS when I could use a far superior filter at the same price.

"...the pan was clean doesn't mean that the oil was changed regularly..."

Come on. Did you just fall off the turnip truck? Looking to buy a bridge?

"Maybe one of the oil passages was blocked because she never changed the air filter and all kinds of crap accumulated..."

What I know is that no additional repairs were done to the engine lubrication system, and the cam has NOT seized again in these additional 65k miles.

Note that my opinion comes mostly from my own experiences and observations. Others have voiced their opinions here, and they agree. Someone provided a link to another discussion board which likewise reveals the Fram shortcomings.

Yet I had not read those comments when I stated my opinion.

Don Foster (near Cape Cod, MA)

That was way out of line when I basically implied that you lied about your 245 with the frozen cam... Please forgive me for getting a wee bit carried away.

I have two brand new Fram filters that someone gave me for my Volvo. He didn't want them, and neither do. Shall I send them to you?

Personally I classify FRAM filters along with Motomaster brake pads. Both work, but the VOLVO pads are definately better.

Rene