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Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

1993 240 Wagon
240k

Twice in the last two months the alternator failed to generate a measurable charge when I started the car in the morning after sitting all night.

The battery voltage each time was 11.8 to 11.9 and the 4 warning lights in the instrument cluster did not light. That's a pretty sure sign I'm not getting a charge.

On both occasions, I pulled the D+ wire at the alternator and connected it to ground to be sure that wire was ok - and it is. The 4 warning lights illuminated.

After letting the car sit for a few hours, the alternator began charging when the engine was started.

The alternator ground and B+ wires were upgraded about a year ago to solve a voltage drop problem. Everything has been a dream up until now. I documented this in a previous link here:

https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1683069/220/240/260/280/new_60a_fuse_setup_93_240_ignition_circuit.html

What further steps can I take to pinpoint the issue? I really don't want to throw parts at it without understanding what is causing the issue.

Thanks.










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    Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

    After many weeks, I have a new reman'd alternator installed, and it seems to be working well.

    During the swap, I found that the new housing halves were rotated 120 degrees from the existing alternator. Luckily I had installed a direct cable from the alt to battery last year, and left some wiggle room.

    I've put about 50 miles on it around town. My cigarette lighter voltmeter shows the voltage moving around with as I apply load - fan, lights, brakes, defroster - more than the previous alternator. I'll give the brushes some time to embed and check again in a month.

    I updated the photo stream showing the details:
    93 240 Alt Regulator

    Thanks for all the help!








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      Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

      Hi Jeff,

      That was a fortunate move on your part to add extra length battery cable. It’s wise to do that on any rewire job because stretching wire or a length of steel doesn’t work out very well.
      Same for paper stretching machine from yeomen and trying to get relative bearing grease from a gyro repair shop is a joke. (:-)

      Yes the alternator was assembled only 90 degrees as it has four bolt holes to clock things around on the front housing. The front housing may or may not have locator tabs so it could be the whole thing to be mounted up side down for mounting on the opposite side of an engine not just a small rotation.
      I surmise that the stator was pushed into place first within the pulley side housing.
      The wires coming off off of the stator windings decided where the rear housing got located.

      That was a cute statement label provided in these instance of application.
      I have seen the battery wire come up from the bottom more often but I like your way much better.
      It’s farther from the engine block and put the D+ wire up where you can access it easier.
      If it was all below its sight unseen and forgotten plus get more dirt get caught around the back side and that can affect cooling.

      Yes it does take more wire and and Bean Counters don’t like that and cosmetics of the engine bay with all the plastic covers today hiding sins very well.
      They don’t want you to realize how cramped the work space is in there.

      As far as voltage being repetitively precise under certain or loads don’t expect to be “dead on” as there are too many variables involved. Just live with a .5 volt spreading.
      Most it involves the battery because it’s chemical and a digital voltage meter circuitry sensitivity varies internally and it has a chemical battery.
      The future should be in super capacitors but I waiting.
      We had a heads up on that dream with the movie Back To The Future. A Flux Capacitor. (:-)

      Phil









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    Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

    Update with pics and questions....

    I believe the problem is the regulator, and the sleeves it makes contact with are pretty worn (deep groves) which is evidenced by the pictures of the brushes.

    I sourced a reman Bosch unit that I plan to install next week.

    Here are pics of the new unit: 93 240 Alt Regulator

    Two questions:

    1. The old alternator has a capacitor connected to the W terminal (see pics). Do I need to swap it onto the new alternator? I can hear whining on my radio with engine speed, so I'm not sure it's working, but I'm also not familiar with its function.

    2. The new alternator case has a small piece missing on top. It's no where to be found, either in side the alternator or in the shipping box. Not sure if that's the way it shipped, or it was damaged after it was remaned. Is it safe to install/use, or should I send it back for another unit. It's a bit of a hassle, but I was to be safe.

    Thanks.








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      Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

      The saga continues...

      I contacted the retailer, and they offered to send another remaned Bosch alternator, so I took them up on the offer. Unfortunately, the bearings sound horrible.

      I posted a video comparing the two units to the 93 240 Alt Regulator photos.

      I'm sending the loud alternator back, and will install the original one they sent. Hopefully that will go well and outlast me.

      Thanks again for all the support.








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        Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

        You'd expect for any kind of proper reman they'd routinely check bearing/bushing wear for freeplay and smoothness. Perhaps it checked out, or at least barely. You'd also expected them to spin it up when they're done and check for full output, which hopefully would catch a noisy bearing, but perhaps the shop was noisy. It's hard to trust remans some days. It's hard to trust ratings. The reman shops may normally be good, but may be inconsistent if they don't pay attention to quality control. I prefer my local alternator/starter shop to do re-builds, but of course it takes longer unless they've got a core exchange on the shelf.

        If you're concerned that dirt and/or water could get into the first alt through those broken spaces or the windings could otherwise get damaged then something like JB-Weld may be up to the task as a filler. It wouldn't have to be level except for looks. JB-Weld contains iron particles as I recall. I would then consider using a backing filler first, something non-conductive, perhaps a scrap of styrofoam, to avoid having anything conductive on the windings. Other epoxies wouldn't need it exept to save on amount used.
        --
        Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now








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      Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

      Thanks for the replies on the capacitor. Very helpful.

      Any input on my second question - the missing piece in the alternator casing?

      Thanks!








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        Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

        Hi,

        I forgot to look at the spot you are concerned about. It’s smaller than my conclusion is here.

        It sure looks like it was broken as a set since the outer and inner shoulder diameters are missing their pieces.

        The housing on the left was the one that got hit and that broke the thinner inner lip of the right housing.
        In being it’s so clean and finished up looking it was done before the tear down.
        Since cores come without boxes normally into the auto parts stores, they the store ship them loose or in plastic flip top bins with starters, unless, you give up your new box to the store. Many stores want it that way but it’s the customers choice over any preconditions to get the core money credit.
        So it most likely happened long before being rebuilt.

        It’s interesting that both housing stayed together. So it goes to the credit of the Bosch rebuilders that the pieces are tracked as a unit. As it’s important not to mismatch them to keep the bearings bores aligned squarely.
        Likewise, Before you take any electric motor apart you should scribe a line on the outside to keep the halves aligned.

        If you didn’t see damage coming from outside of the box towards it I would say it was damaged during processing and long before packaging.
        If you shake the unit and nothing rattles it’s probably ok.
        The stator housing or outer windings pretty well seals off that inner joint from anything moving.

        Another ticket to punch into the brain pan here is the fact that dismantlers crate up a hundreds of different alternators and starters to rebuilders.
        Starter are heavier and more pointed on the same pallets.
        It’s All a Wholesale Event using a $$ rate by poundage!

        I have seen them with a cut off battery wires right at the B+ terminal.
        For sure they are not handled very gently over into a big crate box.
        It’s just scrap metal weight to them.
        Junkyards make out far better if we pull something before they have too, plus no there’s no shipping to anyone. A junkyard core charge or exchange is the nice bonus either way!

        There are more legal ways to take automobiles than there are illegal ways. (:) In Just One phrase “Total It.”
        I heard one stat, how true I don’t know but 10,000 cars a day in California get their bodies are crushed up. Also In a day the US loses people @ 7,000 a day.

        I guess we are ok? As it takes less time to make a car than birth out a human and the alternator, it has a warranty against defects! (:-)

        Phil








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          Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

          As always, thanks for the great insight. I too noticed the edges of of the defect were clean and could have occurred prior to the rebuild, but I have zero experience, so the education is much appreciated.

          Nothing rattles around, and everything turns just fine, so I may go ahead and just install it.

          Thanks again!








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      Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

      Hi,

      Yes move the capacitor over.
      From the look of those brushes you got all of the life out of them as they were arcing for some time.
      Having deep grooves in the slip rings of the rotor means the slip rings are done as well.
      If you can draw your finger over the slip rings and can some feel sharp edges they are deep and near the end of life.
      New brushes will have trouble get in there and seating properly.

      It was a wise move to got to the Bosch rebuilt and steer clear of the other rebuilders.
      I do my own rebuilding including the regulators brushes for less than $2.
      The slip rings change out is a little more involved but doable with understanding and practice.
      I believe Art has done one and he may have pictures on cleanflametrap.com.

      You can check the capacitor with an ohmmeter by putting the leads on one way and then reversing them back the other way.
      You see the numbers flash on a digital meter or will change rapidly.
      The needle on an analog meter will deflect greatly on discharge and go to zero when current ceases to flow.
      I think an analog meter is more meaningful in a sense it shows the charging changes more gradually or slowly.

      The actual capacitance value is not so important but getting no readings means its completely open.
      It’s purpose is to suppress the arcing and/or shunt any frequency from going out onto the B+ supply to the radio.
      So maybe it’s done or was being overwhelmed.
      Change it over to see or listen for it again. (:)

      With new components it can go either way so the capacitor is not so much to worry about.
      If you still get noise the capacitor can be substituted with one of most any size or value, that’s good.


      Thanks for the update!
      It will be appreciated by all.

      Phil








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        Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

        I only want to point out that unlike alternators coming from a local parts house--or from an online source calling them "rebuilt" -- the Bosch brand calls their product "remanufactered" -- and there is a difference. The only one I would trust. The shops I worked in all used a distributor that only sold the Bosch remans. - Dave btw-I have no connection to the brand other than experience. :-)








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          Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

          Ive had good luck with the ones Ive had rebuilt locally, I have also taken them all apart to recondition myself. i have a lathe to turn the commutator or make new slip rings but the slip rings are cheap.

          if you do not have a lathe but do have some sort of upright drill press you can suffice by clamping it in the chuck, and use a bearing or similar clamped tot hedrill press table, to support the other end, then you can spin it and hold a file or sandpaper against the slip rings to resurface them.

          If I get the bearings and the regulator/ brush Assy locally I can save a little but to many I'd just suggest trying to resurface the slip rings and beyond that let the alternator shop do what they do best.
          i do the same with a lot of tools that I need to repair for my job, saws , routers pipe threaders etc lots of tools have brush motors, not too different. same process.

          I believe my new to me Porsche 944 has the same brush assy, at least I can say , I found some references that say its the same part. I think the bosche alternator Porsche used was a specific bosche one.

          I believe this same brush holder/ regulator was used in other cars.
          example :
          https://944online.com/voltage-regulator.html










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            Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

            also yes that capacitor might fail you can check or replace it , also you can add a big capacitor to filter the power to your radio's power supply , the red wire. that can also get rid of interference issues. you can look up "car radio noise suppressors".








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    Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

    "...and the 4 warning lights in the instrument cluster did not light."

    May I assume they did not light with the key on and the engine not running? Yet when you grounded the D+ wire (to what?) the warning lights did come on for lamp test.

    The two most common reasons are (1) one of the brushes is too short to contact the slip ring or (2) the alternator's ground wire is broken. Both of these troubles can present as intermittent faults.

    There are other reasons, such as a loose connector that I gather you would have noticed when you tested the D+ wire to ground, or internal faults of the alternator, such as poor connection between the regulator contacts and alternator, or a broken field winding connection at the slip rings, but not as common as short brushes.



    short brushes



    new brushes



    --
    Art Benstein near Baltimore

    I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for. - Georgia O'Keeffe








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      Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

      Your assumption is correct about the lamp test. I followed the procedure in the FAQ.

      I pulled the regulator, and the brushes are about 3/8" of an inch. I suspect that's too low. Pictures below.

      The alternator is a Bosch unit, but the the regulator appears to be a different manufacturer. What regulator should I replace it with if I want it to be the most reliable?

      Thanks again!

      Link to pics: 93 240 Alt Regulator








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        Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

        if the brushes look uneven like the pic you might have a rough slip ring. Ive resurfaced them before and run for years, you can buy the slip wrings and install them or have an alternator do that. If they are rough the new brush will not last long.
        I had similar issues before and replaced my alternator with another known good one I had onhand. I then found that the ground to engine block was a bad contact. it was under the waterpump, in that area.

        you can quickly take a pair of jumper cables and carefully double up such connections while checking with a meter , to look for any bad connections or look for voltage and ground point differences with a meter. check engine block to ground that way.

        i like to stick my battery posts in a jar of water mixed with lots of baking soda, leave them to bubble away, it does a nice job and also neutralizes any acid. then Il use a bit of sandpaper or steel wool to brighten them up. you can also put some electrolytic grease or battery post protective spray on them to prevent corrosion.

        I'll also take a rag and soak it in baking soda and water. let dry then lay that under the battery to neutralize any acid that should migrate, It will prevent the battery box from rusting. you can wash your battery case with that just keep it well away from the top and the cells themselves , you dont want baking soda in the battery but that can save you a pair of jeans if you pick up the battery.

        on some 240's they run wires near the front of the oilpan a bad area for oil contamination so they sometimes sort of rot out or have insulation cracks there you can check the condition of wire in such places where there is a lot of oil around.

        near the fuel rail there are some important grounds under the bolts that hold down the fuel rail on my 240 and 740's worth cleaning them , a bad connection there can cause a no start.








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          Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

          All excellent advice here from Art. Just thought I'd add that checking for excessive wear grooves in the slip rings can be accomplished by sticking your finger in when the regulator is removed. Even with new brushes that are now touching, if the grooves are deep they may soon have poor contact. Also, between side slop in the brush holder and worn main bushing/bearing allowing lateral movement, the brushes can wander up the edges of a groove, making poor contact, also rounding or even chipping the brush tip for poor contact. I too have filed the slip rings smooth with success to extend the life of an alternator, running the commutator in a drill.

          I've also had starter/alternator shops do a rebuild with great success, although increased labour costs are making that a less economical option now. I've also taken suspect alternators into these shops and had them inspected and spun up on a test bench to see if they're producing the rated amps, all for no charge.

          I didn't think the brushes could be replaced in the newer Bosch regulators, certainly not easily. I stopped doing that years ago when brushes could not be found locally and shipping costs made it more worthwhile to go for a new regulator, always Bosch. There are some really cheap jobber quality regulators out there that shops sometimes use. They work okay, but I don't trust them to perform or last like a Bosch.
          --
          Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now








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            Brush replacement 200 1993

            Dave, I should have answered about the regulator assembly brand, but your answer is the same as mine; I know the Bosch and don't know the aftermarket brands. Can't possibly say which is "better" even after repairing dozens of Bosch alternators, because I've never bought one new. Always, I've had spares from the junkyard, and those I've chosen to put new brushes in for spare regulator assemblies have been Bosch EL.






















            And yet, it went without saying for me, to get bright light or at least a pinky finger on those slip rings. The alternators put into our cars are now at an age replacement slip rings might be past due.









            --
            Art Benstein near Baltimore

            The older I get the faster I was.








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              Brush replacement 200 1993

              Art, you missed your calling as a medical examiner doing autopsies for cause of death, lol.
              --
              Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now








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    Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

    11.8 Volts is below nominal battery voltage of 12.6 VDC with car off.
    Bad or weak cell/s in the battery?
    You should confirm that with another VOM.

    You should measure about:
    12.6 VDC at the battery terminals car off
    14 VDC at the battery terminals with the car running.

    How old is the battery?
    Did you allow a fully discharged battery to freeze?
    Hopefully a NO answer to that question.
    Use a battery hydrometer to check each cell.

    How are the brushes in the Voltage regulator?

    Bill








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      Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

      11.8 was with the motor running and no charge from the alternator. Without it running, it's 12.3.

      The battery is 2 years old and always stays charged. It's not serviceable.

      Now the brushes, that's another story....








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        Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

        Check your Voltage regulator brushes. They are a consumable item.
        Just pull the VR off of the alternator and look at them and you'll know.
        See Art Benstein's nice photo's.

        The local alternator shop here quit soldering in brushes in Volvo (Bosch)
        voltage regulators since they can get the whole unit so cheap.
        They gave me a set of brushes free for my 740 alternator, and sold me a new one
        for about $10.00 They say they need the Bosch part number and there's about six
        different options for Volvo Alternators. Compare that to the wild prices at your favorite supplier for Volvo VR's.

        Are you measuring battery voltage at the battery terminals?
        Not to be confused with measuring at the battery cable connectors.
        Put your meter directly on the battery anodes and come back with your
        voltage readings with the engine off and with the engine running 2500 RPM
        and the alternator charging.

        Not all batteries are un-serviceable. I got an Allstate for my 850 two years ago from a good old fashioned local auto parts store and it had the usual features where you can check the electrolyte level and each cell with a hydrometer.
        Fill it when needed only with distilled water and keep it from freezing when discharged and expect maybe eight years service life.

        Good luck, Bill










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      Alternator not charging.... sometimes 200 1993

      It seems all batteries are now maintenance free and lucky to get 3 yrs out them. Most only offer a 30 months warranty. Gone are the days of adding distilled water or checking the cell with a hydrometer.







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