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Long time, no visit,...
I need to replace my cracked 240 windshield, but I thought it would be smart to have an OEM seal, or gasket on hand before I started, even if I wind up taking it to a shop.
Somewhere I heard that the '93s had a different way to mount the windshield, that they used a rubber gasket, like my old Amazons. If so, is that still available? A part number would help if I'll need to buy a gasket. Also, what is recommended for a sealant; butyl, neoprene, butadiene, silicon (NO! I hate silicon!)? Will I need mounting clips as well? The car is black, with all (OEM) blacked out trim, if that makes a difference. I wanted to get this done reasonably soon, before nasty weather returns.
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The windshield's seal is the adhesive used to attach it to the body frame, or pinchweld. It was installed with butyl at the factory.
Many confuse the seal with the rubber trim that covers the gap once the window is installed. This trim changed in 1991 from an aluminum/rubber piece attached to the glass with plastic clips to an all-rubber piece glued on to the glass. That '91 change is the only difference your '93 has from earlier 240's back to '78. The glass is the same.
If you order a windshield to do the job yourself, assuming you might in order to take care of any rust in the pinchweld, you have the option of re-installing with a butyl rubber strip.
However, if you ask a professional to do the install, you'll get polyurethane. If you go that route, watch them; make sure they clean all the old butyl out before using the urethane.
If you want to scroll through some pics, look here
http://cleanflametrap.com/windshield.html
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Q. What do bulletproof vests, fire escapes, windshield wipers, and laser printers all have in common?
A. All invented by WOMEN!
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Thanks Art, I almost understand, but so far it looks like one of the differences is the sealant used in 240s, 1976 up to 1991, which used Butyl and those cars from '91 to the end in '93. The latter used Urethane sealant. Did I get that right?
From what I can see, the glass is OEM for 1993, so using Urathane won't be a big deal. Looking on your website, at the link titled Volvo Hacks, it also seems there are TWO different windshields; '76 to '91 is #404, while the 91 to '93 windshield is #FW667?
Have patience, I'm a PV guy, plus I ain't smart, just handsome!!!
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The FW667 is what I put in mine -- it's the only one available; which is to say, if you have an older 240 (you don't) you have to live with the newer style windshield when time comes to replace.
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Micheal, OK for the correct (FW667) windshield. I need what will most likely be what's available.
Is there a preferred brand? I've heard that Pilkington is, or can be not so wonderful, i.e. thinner, more brittle? There was a Finnish brand rumored to be superior. Of course, NOS OEM is best, but that's just plain luck to find one. If I have to go through all of this, then I'll avoid a used one (even if it could be removed undamaged).
I was offered a NOS windshield by a local Volvo dismantler/rebuilder up here near the Twin Cities. Not sure which version. I was hoping they'd install it as well. I did buy a tube of 3M Urethane sealant, and I guess I'll need another. But, now I know which questions to ask. I'll post my experiences after the fact.
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An afterthought; are the windshields visibly marked with a part #? FW667? FW404? FW***?
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Absent the suction cup handles, here's what mine looked like when I picked it up. 3 "stickers" and two adhesive block/spacers that keep one piece of glass from touching another while they have it in storage. I actually cut up those white spacers and made my own 'windshield spacers' using two sided hvydty tape -- they center the windshield side to side and keep it from sliding all the way to the bottom of the cavity. For butyl which stays pliable, you need those to keep the windshield from moving around, especially on a hot day. For urethane, you only need them til the adhesive sets up - although most shops use some tape between the top of the windshield and the top of the car.
Zoom in and you'll see the '667' reference. When I did mine a few years ago, I could only find the 667 part - and that from two different manufacturers. Can't remember the brand now - but I do remember I chose not to go with Pilkington. The one I got has perfect optic qualities.
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The FW (front window) number is an industry designation, not just a Pilkington number. I'm not sure whether the windows the original car manufacturer gets to install at the factory include this number label on the product itself, because my guess is this is a system to identify replacement glass.
The FW404 was available to me just a few years ago. The only difference between the two is that the 404 does not come with the glued-on black rubber trim, which is what you want anyway.
Regarding your question about the sealant used, 1991 did not bring a change. I don't believe 1993 did either, however I have been surprised by many undocumented discoveries folks have made on the last few 240s produced in 1993, so I won't say it is impossible. Pretty certain no 240 left the factory with urethane securing the front window.
I'm curious about your reference to "Volvo Hacks" in your earlier response. Can you please give the URL where you found that?
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Working people frequently ask retired people what
they do to make their days interesting.
Well, for example, the other day, Mary my wife and I
went into town and visited a shop.
When we came out, there was a cop writing out a parking ticket.
We went up to him and I said, 'Come on, man,
how about giving a senior citizen a break?'
He ignored us and continued writing the ticket.
I called him an “asshole” . He glared at me and started
writing another ticket for having worn-out tires.
So Mary called him a “shit head”. He finished the
second ticket and put it on the windshield with the first.
Then he started writing more tickets.
This went on for about 20 minutes.
The more we abused him, the more tickets he wrote.
Just then our bus arrived, and we got on it
and went home.
We try to have a little fun each day now that we're retired.
It's important at our age.
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Hi Art, I found that link about halfway down the http://cleanflametrap.com/windshield.html link you provided.
In case it doesn't come up, see if this direct link works. It's an industry site for professional glass installers. AGRR (Automotive Glass Retailers *****?) Really worthwhile reading, if you have the inclination.
http://pub24.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=2036554146&frmid=6&msgid=850522&cmd=show
So, just to cement the idea in my head, and to give a permanent record for future Brickboard questions and info;
NO, repeat NO 240s left the factory with Urethane securing their windshields?
It's all Butyl, right?
BTW, the "Volvo Hacks " link says otherwise, 1991 through 1993 Volvo 240s use Urethane
So confused! In any case, I'm a lot further along than when I first posted. Thanks
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Oh, thanks, I forgot about that glass forum thread! Volvo Hacks. I remember the frit was another feature of the replacement glass and something related to adhesion with the urethane or masking the ugliness.
I'm sticking to my notion there was no urethane used by Volvo on the 240, but really, I'm limited to my experience, and so far the only urethane I've found in 90's 240s is that used to install replacement glass. The problem has been the butyl being left behind by sloppy time-motivated installers.
You have a 93: Does the window have a 93 date and is it in there with sticky black stuff??
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Some days you're the bug; some days you're the windshield.
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I went and looked at my '93 sedan. I am pretty sure, beyond much doubt, that this is the factory installed windshield. It has a black border, with little black dots on the inner edge.
The following is on the glass, in the lower right corner, from the top down;
Scanex GB
Pilkington
DOT 41M 163 AS 1
E 11 (in a circle) 43R 00019
Sweden 92
(no sign of an FW number, 667 or 404, I'm guessing the Sweden 92 is the date of manufacture)
I hope this is helpful, and brings some 'clarity' to the situation!
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Just to keep this particular plate spinning (like on the old Ed Sullivan Show, right?), because it appears to be a topic well worth exploring.
Yesterday I was sealing the rubber windshield gasket on my '68 122 wagon, and used a tube of 'Windo-Weld' 3M Urethane sealant (product # 08609). It was unopened, but a few years old. When I used it, it tended to set up hard really quickly, within 15 minutes. I'm guessing this is disadvantage for a 240, or more m0odern installation. Does the Butyl act all that differently, more like silicon? On the plus side, once the Windo-Weld set, it did clean up very quickly and easily.
For the DIY/aftermarket, is there an alternative (commonly) available to the Pilkington glass? I've been told it was thinner, maybe even more brittle than the OEM glass.
P.S. are there many Volvo 240s in Antarctica?
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Butyl, essentially, does not set up. It stays sticky/tacky. That's why the rubber 'stops' placed at the sides and bottom of the pinch weld are needed. Because the butyl sealant stays tacky, without the stops, the windshield would move around and slide out of place. If you look at the pictures in my thread linked above, you'll see what a sticky mess mine was at the age of about 36 years.
2 240's in Antarctica.
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"I hope this is helpful, and brings some 'clarity' to the situation!"
Why, yes, you nailed the qualifying part of my question, being certain and, uh, clear, that you're looking at the original glass. How about the part of my question to determine the sealant used by the Swedes?
From the inside, use a toothpick, for instance, to test the durometer of the sealing substance. If butyl, it will still be pliable, maybe even gooey in spots; if urethane it will be like a rock.
My daughter's '93 has the original glass. It is in there with butyl.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Expert: An "ex" is a has-been and a "spurt" is a little drip under pressure.
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Hi Art!
I have been following the thread like you and have even more questions than you about doing a replacement windshield.
Being that you and Michael have done this before with picture documentaries it surely looks like it’s more than a one person job, especially when it comes to setting down that piece of glass into a bed of any kind of sealant or adhesive.
Some of the Volvo books show a special fixture holding onto the glass but nothing holding the fixture in place. That seems odd to go to that extreme when you know it’s going to add weight to the whole affair.
I looked over your web site article and looked up the XYG brand glass in the picture.
The search engine came up with this site of a Phoenix glass company.
http://phoenixglass.biz/collision-related-windshield-pinchweld-repair.htm
The name has nothing to do with that town as it’s located in Knoxville Tennessee. Go figure?
Anyway, the page I posted here, talks a lot about newer types of pinch weld areas, with a super amount of concern about getting urethane systems to be compatible with an array of car paint finishes let alone any damage.
Lots of over emphasis of letting solvent gases “out” of what ever is used on the car. In some cases allowing paint to dry 60 to 90 days.
I don’t believe a car manufacturers let a finished car body set that long in inventory “waiting.”
Their information was VERY helpful but I also noticed they used reference articles that were about 20 years old even though their site was revised in 2018, so they push about doing things right, even though it’s still sales marketing intended!
I think you are right about Volvo NOT using any kind of urethane on the 240 despite increasing structural integrity or safety from a windshield popping out during an accident.
240 cars were already strong and with its age on the market scene they put this concern in the minus column for discontinuing the model due to tooling costs, let alone urethane issues in the painting world. Clear coating peeling was just one big hurdle they jumped!
My conclusion was and still is, that urethane advice is under a constant update, especially on the newest cars today!
An example, is conductive and non conductivity concerns with all the electronics in a car!
Its no wonder that getting a proper job done on a normal replacement, without pinch flange repair, is not going to happen with the “wham-bam” it’s all done “service work attitudes!”
Training and caring, in our country, has not been one of our strongest suits to display to world today, let alone the virus putting us out there on the front street!
Since Michael and you both have “Done It Yourself” how did you go about finding a good glass company to work with?
Where do you get good stuff to work with?
What can one expect to pay for the windshields today and do you think they are all made in China now?
My 1991 had a Pilkington black trimmed glass put in sometime before I bought it. The pinch flange has rusted up under the rubber on the passenger side top and down.
The poor installation job and now on the lower driver’s side corner laminate separation is going on and is slowly spreading inward up about three inches. No idea what caused that?
I see now it’s lots of work and since I have six cars and two more have pitted glass only with no leakages or rust.
I must have to consider getting hooked in to the end of the enthusiast hobby.
Since it takes two people, I will have to get “very creative” in making support mechanisms using my engine lift or car lift?
Safelite makes it look so easy, but I bet they put that glass into a setup fixture, maybe on the ground, to locate it on that arm!
Has anyone seen it done?
I haven’t looked for any of those “YouTubes” demonstrations.
One used to explain how they learned something about this, by stating, “I Stayed at a “Holiday Express!
But really, it was a WiFi Internet Connection!
(:-)
Whoops long post!
Phil
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"Since it takes two people, I will have to get “very creative” in making support mechanisms using my engine lift or car lift?"
Unless you live in Antarctica - just ask a friend to help for 30 minutes or so.
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Hi Michael!
Thanks for those links and especially the one to an older post that we were both on together.
Yep, the car mentioned by me there, is still in a holding pattern to see if I ever fix it.
I have gone to using black duct tape over the mess of rust on the right and like you did, I left it wider so it doesn’t look so bad.
I too, will have to look into that wider rubber trim kit from Gold Glass T109B that is 31mm wide.
Your job really did come out looking very professional done or I can probably say better than you could get anywhere else on this planet!
It does seem to be the only way to go to get rid of all the “horrors“ lurking under that trim.
I’m going to bookmark your posts as they will be put to good use, if I ever get brave enough to do what you have accomplished!
You and Art have documented well!
Funny you mention Antarctica!
I’m pretty close to living in Antarctica as I have only one neighbor that can help. Relatives are distant also!
The rest in my neighborhood are busy men or women living on their own, as widows!
The one is 57 and I’m 70 but we were Navy men so that’s a good bridge!
But this year, He is even selling his place this year, just to move across town. He wants to downsize his house and expenses in order to retire.
I have been retired for 15 years and several that I have worked with have either died after retiring or moved out of California to somewhere else completely!
Most men older than me Or others younger, so they never hung out with me.
I had no children, so no ties there and many interests waned going both ways, I don’t hunt or fish!
I was capable of retiring younger or sort of in the middle of where they all were!
I always listened and watched my elders, especially craftsmen and heeded their advice to become happy in my lifestyle like anyone else would!
Those at my last employment were still younger and felt respect them because of the trades needs.
Now since I have moved on it seems they forgot me a little. We have Very limited needs for interactions from both directions of generations!
I have dropped back in at work to say hi, but in essence, I’m feel dismembered or like I returned from an extended vacation. Less interaction and interests and caring so much anymore.
Now the employees have rotated out, “changing of the guard,” so to speak, so I’m not going back in and chumming it up, anymore! The sun has set, now, I have the cool of the night to ponder!
Ever once and a while I’ll see someone in town and we will talk about those days and retirement.
What’s sad, is, we worked around each other for many years and lots of times, for me anyways, we don’t know or can’t remember their complete names now!
Many have died or if they moved, it’s iffy, that I ever hear anything about them at all ever again!
It’s like when I was working, coworkers went to go on vacation and actually found a better job and just left! Gone!
I have done that myself once in 1984.
Came back, gave two weeks notice to assure the vestment of my retirement time and moved on! Close to being one of those people caught in “many” articles of Brian Williams by 1998.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7319239/ns/nbc_nightly_news_with_brian_williams/t/k-fleecing-america/#.XyuZki0iehA
One of my grandfathers lived to be 92 and when he was in his eighties, he said to me, “ You know, everyone that I ever knew, are now all gone and I don’t know why the Good Lord is keeping me around?”
LOST in ANTARCTICA is a close call, so I hunker down to avoid the virus, in my Quonset hut and on the Brickboard’s connection to some sanity of my own doing!
(:-)
Phil
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I have an entirely different perspective than most of what I read about regarding glass and structural integrity.
Glass is quite brittle - even that sandwiched around plastic for safety. I think the issue is less about the glass helping the structural integrity of the car; but rather, is the windshield pinch weld area "stiff" enough to handle a piece of glass rigidly held into place (polyurethane) without the flexing of the unibody breaking the windshield. Newer unibodies are MUCH, MUCH stiffer in bending and torsional rigidity than the older cars (any 240) were. You can glue a piece of glass in and not worry about the body flexing enough to hurt the glass. The older unibodies REALLY moved around a lot as the car moves over bumps and such. A thick layer of butyl which never sets allows the windshield to seal out water and air while also allowing the body to 'move around' without harming the glass. Before butyl, rubber gaskets were used -- they also allowed body movement without harming the integrity of the glass. If it came with butyl, I'd use butyl to put it back in. The windshield shops use polyurethane because 'most' of their customers' vehicles came from the factory with it and they don't want to have to deal with labor intensive Butyl any more than they have to. Fact is, they're replacing far fewer older windshields than newer ones - so they use the polyurethane for everything. That's my theory.
I bought the butyl and primer on ebay; I bought wider universal windshield trim on ebay as well -- the newer/thinner trim wasn't wide enough to cover the 'paint line' where we masked around the old trim when the car was painted. I searched locally for windshield providers - there were several. I searched for"best quality windshield manufacturer" or some such thing and did my homework. Then sought out the one I decided on before pursuing it locally. Picked it up in the back of my daily driver hatchback and brought it home. The only part of the process that required two people as actually setting the windshield into the butyl. All my cleaning, test fitting, etc. I did by myself.
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....and I would add, I tried to get 3 different local windshield shops to replace mine for me. I could afford it and just didn't want to go through the trouble. 1 small mom/pop place and two of the national chains. Both national chains told me they couldn't get a replacement. I challenged them explaining I could get one locally. They then said they couldn't put in a windshield supplied by the customer. I've concluded that was all code-talk for "we don't want to mess with your messy butyl". The mom/pop shop just stopped returning my calls. Same issue -- different communication style.
So I finally went all Risky Business on it (every now and then you just have to say what the f@ck) and DIY'd it. Glad I did. No shop would have taken the time/trouble that I did.
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I would edit my previous reply but.....
Here's the thread on my replacement saga -- lots of info in there about supplies, suppliers, etc. https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/1658570/220/240/260/280/242_windshield_replacement.html
Got the windshield through Windshields To Go. https://windshieldstogo.com/wizard/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj-W07Mz_6gIVFNZ3Ch3i5AfVEAAYAyAAEgIt6fD_BwE
I just went through and told them I need a windshield for a 1992 240 Volvo -- it quoted me $152.41 for local pickup. And for $262.41 they'll send someone (who knows who) out to replace it in my driveway. I actually think I might have paid a bit more than $152 a few years ago. And it turns I DID use a Pilkington windshield. Yes, made in China. The first unit was not Pilkington -- and the way the warehouse stored the windshield damaged the rubber trim -- so I returned it.
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