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Engine died!
My B18 which I rebuilt in 2009, about 50K miles ago, just died when exiting the freeway. It's the hottest day of the year, 104 degrees in the shade, about a million degrees in the sun. The car hummed happily along at 70mph, as usual, not breaking a sweat, coolant temp gauge perfectly centered.
When getting off the gas from 4,000 rpm to go down the freeway off ramp, I heard a clong, followed by a few more clongs, then silence. At the end of the off ramp, the engine was off and wouldn't start again.
When activating the starter, the engine turns quickly, making a sound like a well-balanced coffee grinder. The radiator fan is turning.
I removed the valve cover, and none of the valves are moving. My guess is therefore that the Bakelite timing wheel failed, and parts of it fell "down."
My questions are:
1)can I replace the timing gear by just removing radiator and water pump, but without pulling the engine?
2)should I go with steel instead?
3)am I correct to assume that there's no way a piston could have hit one of the valves?
Thanks, guys!
Bernard
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My Volvo, so far on 8 pages at: http://www.californiaclassix.com/Bernard/PV544-1.html
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So I've installed the new all-steel gear set. I took my time to do it right, double checked everything, torqued everything to factory specs.
Since the car was starting to run rough a few weeks ago, I did a major tune-up, including taking the carbs apart and cleaning them. They are a bit worn, but now sync'd to the max. The engine runs smoothly.
I've been driving the 544 for a few days, but I have mixed feelings. Noise wise, there's almost no difference. If you know it's now steel instead of plastic, you may be able to hear it. Otherwise, it's a non-issue.
What I noticed, however, is that the car doesn't perform as well as it did before. Subjectively it accelerates a bit slower, and it seems to have to work harder as well. I used to cruise at 4,000 rpm on the freeway, and now it seems like I need 4,200 rpm to maintain the same speed.
The only explanation I have for this is that the steel wheels are still very tight and have to wear in a bit. After assembling, I coated them with engine assembly lube. But it's really hard for me to believe that a steel camshaft wheel should be able to have an impact on performance that can be felt when driving it normally.
Any thoughts?
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My Volvo, so far on 8 pages at: http://www.californiaclassix.com/Bernard/PV544-1.html
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Went in again to check everything. Timing with vacuum disconnected is about 16 to 17 BTC. With vacuum under revs it passes the 30 degree mark.
Turns out that my TACH is not working properly anymore. Adjusted everything again (was running a tad rich) and now I'm ready to see how it performs to next few days.
When closing the hood, I noticed engine oil spray. Looks like my new neoprene oil seal in the timing cover is leaking. Fun, fun, fun!
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My Volvo, so far on 8 pages at: http://www.californiaclassix.com/Bernard/PV544-1.html
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Bernard;
Thanks for follow up post...I'm happy to hear that you are not experiencing a noise increase with the steel TGear.
...but something else you state can't be quite right: "I used to cruise at 4,000 rpm on the freeway, and now it seems like I need 4,200 rpm to maintain the same speed."
...that's impossible as RPM and Speed are tied together by hard unchanging factors...namely Gearbox and Diff Ratios, as well as Tire Circumference, and I presume none of those have changed...if THE ONLY thing that was changed was Timing Gear and carb tune, I have to suggest that you changed something in either the carb tune OR the Ign Timing (which obviously had to be reset after TGear install), to put engine into a region of operation where it produces less power.
Your engine is now working harder and under a higher Load (throttle depressed further), but for that given speed, the RPMs MUST be the same they were before. I suggest you check, adjust, optimize Timing and Carb tune to bring the engine back to where it was.
Good Hunting!
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Hi Ron . . .
thanks for the reply.
I have to confess that the ONE thing I didn't touch is ignition timing.
The car ran like a scalded cat before the cam wheel broke, and I didn't remove the distributor, just replaced condenser, points, rotor, and cap, so I don't understand why I would have to reset the timing if I put both gear wheels back onto the crank/cam with the timing marks pointing directly toward each other (4th cylinder on TDC ready to fire).
What am I missing here?
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My Volvo, so far on 8 pages at: http://www.californiaclassix.com/Bernard/PV544-1.html
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Bernard;
"the ONE thing I didn't touch is ignition timing." ...maybe not intentionally, but you should always reset Ign Timing when Points are changed...because you always move the precise moment of ignition a slight amount inadvertently (even if you very carefully set the gap, Timing will have undoubtedly have changed a bit from the precise point it was set at before!)...but this is no big deal!...just get out your trusty Timing Strobe and twiddle it back to what it was (I like to start at 16Deg BTDC!)...and if you don't have a TStrobe, just Static Time it as described here: https://www.sw-em.com/Volvo%20Ignition%20from%20Scratch.htm#Static%20Timing
I expect that when you changed points, you changed the Timing Point to a point of less degrees BTDC...that would be consistent with a reduced engine performance and easily explain your result!...I suggest you reset your Timing by one of the methods mentioned...that will bring engine performance level back to what it was before...simple!
Good Hunting!
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If the steel centre was coming adrift from the fibre (see my YouTube videos linked in my previous post) you may have had a sort of variable valve timing and also variable ignition timing due to the play in the cam, hence altered timing at the distributor. If you timed by strobe before you replaced the timing gear the strobe might have shown some unsteadiness or variation but if you just did static timing it would be hit or miss where it ended up. It wouldn't have been far out but now with the new gear it might be enough out to take the edge off of your performance. As Ron says there will be no difference with the revs and speed but you might need a bit more right foot.
I have to mention, but hope you didn't, that if you have replaced the timing gears one tooth out you would notice the difference even though the engine would run.
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Not entirely apart yet, but there are some major teeth missing . . .
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My Volvo, so far on 8 pages at: http://www.californiaclassix.com/Bernard/PV544-1.html
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Not sure how to remove the cam wheel. Don't have the special puller, and prying it off is described as a no no . . .
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My Volvo, so far on 8 pages at: http://www.californiaclassix.com/Bernard/PV544-1.html
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If the timing gear has broken teeth, it's not going to be reused so pry away.
FYI, I have all of the special tools needed to change the timing gears if you want to rent them.
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Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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Got it off.
Eric, can you send me an eMail?
Can't get through to your Web site.
Bernard@californiaclassix.com
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My Volvo, so far on 8 pages at: http://www.californiaclassix.com/Bernard/PV544-1.html
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Ron's page here is an interesting read https://www.sw-em.com/Timing%20Gear%20Notes.htm
Page has this link to a long thread about my timing gear failure and repair, with pics and links to Youtube about it.
https://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=250654&highlight=Timing+gear
If you can rent the cam gear refitting tool from Erik I would recommend it. Don't try and hammer it on as you can knock the plug out of the back of the block and that will mean gearbox and bell housing out to replace it. Problem made worse is you won't know it's out until you get lots of oil leaking out of the back of the block and onto the clutch. Also do not try and wind the gear on with the cam nut as this can break the nose off the cam if the gear gets stuck.
Note the reduced torque setting for the nut and use of Loctite.
Good luck, I hope the job goes well.
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Bernard;
My condolence...but you could do a lot worse (and be a more expensive) than a Timing Gear failure, and I agree with good info by other posters, and BTW you don't need to remove WaPu for access.
I've collected Timing Gear info here: http://www.sw-em.com/Timing%20Gear%20Notes.htm
Good Hunting!
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Ron,
I extensively read on your site yesterday already. It's wonderful and super informative. I actually encountered it earlier, when deliberating what to do when replacing my 50+ year-old armored coil with a regular one.
Still a bit confusing to me that I can't just open the armored wire, and use that very power wire and attach it to a new coil, but I'm working on getting smart.
On final thoughts, I think you supplied me with the alternator-to-generator conversion kit a few years back. Still works like a charm!
Cheers,
Bernard
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My Volvo, so far on 8 pages at: http://www.californiaclassix.com/Bernard/PV544-1.html
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Still a bit confusing to me that I can't just open the armored wire, and use that very power wire and attach it to a new coil, but I'm working on getting smart.
We've been doing this for years mostly because we can't find a universal ignition switch worth a s%^t and ONLY WHEN THE COIL IS DETERMINED TO BE BAD.
It isn't hard to get at the wire.
1st, clamp the armored cable in a vise close to the coil and twist. I can't remember which direction, but turn in the correct direction and pull and the coil will come off the end of the armored cable and you can then cut the wire as close as possible to the coil so you can have the longest possible wire.
Then reverse the armored cable in the vise so it close the ignition switch and twist the switch in the correct direction and it will come off with the wire.
We also like to re-purpose the coil housing by gutting it and installing the replacement coil inside. Just be careful when cutting it apart as there maybe unhealthful dust to avoid so use a particle mask.
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Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
hiperformanceautoservice.com or oldvolvosonly.com
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1)can I replace the timing gear by just removing radiator and water pump, but without pulling the engine?
Yes
2)should I go with steel instead?
Its your call. A new fiber gear is cheaper, but if you don't want to ever do that job again get steel. And I suggest you stay away from the Cloyes set. FYI, I have new original steel timing gears.
3)am I correct to assume that there's no way a piston could have hit one of the valves?
If still using a stock camshaft, it almost impossible for a valve to be hit by a piston.
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Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
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Eric's advice is always spot on.
Curious why you don't care for the Cloyes sets.
I've had one in one of my B20s for close to 100K miles without issue.
Why "stay away"?
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The Cloyes timing gear set is poorly made and I've heard of more than 1 complaint of having a hard time installing them.
I don't like the alloy camshaft gear and we broke 1 in 1 of our performance motors a long long time ago.
Although sort of nit picky, there aren't threaded holes in the crankshaft gear for easy removal. But back when we were getting most of steel timing gears out of the junkyard, that made a difference, so partially some old prejudice for stupidity.
Here is a recent post that includes so negative comments on their quality.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=343096
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Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
hiperformanceautoservice.com or oldvolvosonly.com
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I've used the Cloyes aluminum gears on 7 or 8 engines in the last 3 or 4 years and have not had any issues [knock on wood] but I don't doubt your experience. We have three cars that run steel - two are surprisingly noisy; the other is completely quiet.
VP now offers billet aluminum timing gears. I'm going to install a set on one of our shop engines later this summer.
Anyone tried the VP bits and care to comment?
Thanks,
Cameron
swedishrelics.com
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The Cloyes timing gear set is poorly made and I've heard of more than 1 complaint of having a hard time installing them.
I don't like the alloy camshaft gear and we broke 1 in 1 of our performance motors a long long time ago.
Although sort of nit picky, there aren't threaded holes in the crankshaft gear for easy removal. But back when we were getting most of our steel timing gears out of the junkyard, that made a difference, so partially some old prejudice for stupidity.
Here is a recent post that includes so negative comments on their quality.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=343096
--
Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
hiperformanceautoservice.com or oldvolvosonly.com
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Sounds good, Eric.
I'll start wrenching on the car on Monday. Once I have the timing cover off I'll know more and contact you about the set.
I wonder how noisy the steel set is.
Does it sound like a small block Chevy with gear drive?
Bernard
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My Volvo, so far on 8 pages at: http://www.californiaclassix.com/Bernard/PV544-1.html
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Most of my customers say they didn't hear any difference in the engine noise after steel gears were installed when inside their cars.
Some do notice the gear noise when the hood is open.
So nowhere near as loud as gear drive.
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Eric
Hi Performance Automotive Service (formerly OVO or Old Volvos Only)
Torrance, CA 90502
hiperformanceautoservice.com or oldvolvosonly.com
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I changed the timing gears on my 122 without pulling the engine & can't imagine a 544 would be any different. I bought a set of steel gears online but was not impressed by their appearance. They were rough, & had burrs on the edges of the teeth, & just looked like they missed the final step in the finishing process. I returned them & used the fiber gears instead.
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