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My 85 244 on an hour long freeway commute: Hit the brakes after not using them for a while, and they engage low to the floor, then firm up and the pedal is normal after a couple of applications.
I don't notice this around town, as they are in use much more frequently.
Leaky booster?
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Hi,
Did you know that many master cylinders come off the assembly line defective?
Coincidentally, the bleeder screws from the 900 series cylinder RWD will fit into the brake line portings and allow for a stomp test of the master cylinders.
I would do that instead of spending money on hoses.. You should also grab a brake reservoir cap and glue an air fitting into it, so you can power bleed the brakes.
EDIT: I see you have a power bleeder with a reservoir, but that really isn’t necessary if you pay VERY strict attention to the levels and refill after EACH WHEEL. If you shot air into the lines, you need to start again, depressing the pedal with FULL travel while the bleeder screw is open. You have to be quick to avoid draining the cylinder at the recommended pressure (35-40) psi. The higher the better, until the reservoir detaches..
See the 700 series service manual for brakes.
https://www.scribd.com/document/21651606/Volvo-700-Brakes-Incomplete
As an aside, I have modified the shorter 900 alloy master to fit into a 240 with a bit of grinding. Seems to work well enough, balance is proper, but with far less pedal travel.
Goatman
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I agree with Goatman. Before spending the money on the hoses, I would try thoroughly bleeding the WHOLE system again (following the bleed sequence in the books or on the web). Be extremely careful not to let air into the system at any point. IMHO - this is worth a try as you are going to have to bleed the system after replacing the hoses anyway. So before doing all that work why not try bleeding again....
Don't get discouraged I-5 Librarian, as I mentioned before the brake system on the 240's is one of the most unnecessarily complicated and troublesome parts of the car. Worst part of the car - IMO. I've had far few brake issues on my other Volvo's and Volkswagen's that I've owned.
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"The higher the better, until the reservoir detaches.."
LOL
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I have a different take, based on your carefully worded symptom.
My guess is you have a dragging caliper. A sticky caliper. In the extreme case you will lose brakes altogether when this occurs in a front wheel after freeway cruising. The extreme case will occur when the old brake fluid, with its reduced boiling point from the original DOT-4 value, boils in that sticky caliper and boils in BOTH circuits.
For now, it is just creating compressible water vapor in one circuit, or to the extent you DO reach the pedal bottom when you get to your toll plaza or off ramp stop. Until you find this issue, keep that handbrake accessible, and take care when exiting the freeway.
Yes, the master is probably due for replacement. This is because the boiling fluid has allowed its travel to send the seals into the rusty, unused areas ahead. But it won't cure the issue. And, in my opinion, you can forget the booster as a cause. Derek's observation that loose wheel bearings can increase pedal travel (pad knock-back) is true enough, but you wouldn't have to talk about freeway driving for that to occur.
If the master alone would be the cause, it would do it in town, and within the first few minutes of driving. I interpret your symptom report to say this happens after high speed driving for some time, which is consistent with a sticky caliper and dragging pads. Check your wheel temperature after a high speed drive. If you don't have a non-contact IR thermometer, use your nose and the back of your hand near the wheel.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
A cowboy from Texas was pulled over by an Arizona DPS Trooper for speeding.
The trooper started to lecture the cowboy about his speeding, and in general began to throw his weight around to try to make the cowboy feel uncomfortable.
Finally, the trooper got around to writing out the ticket. As he was doing that, he kept swatting at some flies that were buzzing around his head. The cowboy said, "Y'all havin' some problem with circle flies?"
The trooper stopped writing the ticket and said, "Well yeah, if that's what they're called. But I never heard of no circle flies.
"Well, sir," the cowboy replied, "circle flies hang around ranches. They're called circle flies because they're almost always found circling around the back end of a horse."
The trooper said, "Oh," and went back to writing the ticket. But, a moment later he stopped and said, "Are you calling me a horse's ass?"
"No, sir," the cowboy replied, "I have too much respect for law enforcement to call y'all a horse's ass."
"That's a good thing," the trooper said and went back to writing the ticket.
After a long pause, the cowboy, in his best Texas drawl said, "Hard to fool them flies though."
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Art,
I think that you've shared a very thoughtful and insightful analysis. It deserves to be correct, and I believe that it is. My IR thermometer will probably confirm it. Thank you sir.
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I used the IR. Rear brakes about 80 degrees. Front rotors at 120- 140 degrees, drivers may be hotter, but readings seem to fluctuate.
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Maybe these are normal temperatures? Front being hotter makes sense I guess. What do you think?
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Certainly those temps are not enough to boil brake fluid. Keep an eye on it, and get scientific -- mine right now are the same temp as the surrounding air, but I'm leaving out the important data about why that might be.
I would not let something like this go unanswered for a month of driving. Too dangerous. I'd have the wheels off of the front checking every aspect of the caliper operation including piston retraction, and if nothing obvious surfaced, I'd put 4 new hoses on, guessing the interior of a hose split away forming an inadvertent and intermittent check valve keeping a piston from retracting.
When the problem actually occurs, or nearly does, that's when you'll find the heat.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
What engineers say and what they mean by it:
"The entire concept will have to be abandoned"
The only guy who understood the thing quit.
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So, with the recent discovery of significant fluid loss in the master cylinder reservoir,and no leaks seen on the calipers, I tried loosening the master cylinder to see what is going on between it and the brake booster. The back of it was wet with brake fluid.
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I hope when you replace the master, you take that opportunity to change the brake fluid, all of it, and inspect the calipers, before hitting the road again.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Engineering says: "The entire concept will have to be abandoned"
Engineers meant: The only guy who understood the thing quit.
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I ordered the MC from eBay as suggested by maplebones, and the motive power bleeder recommended by kittysgreyvolvo. Thanks for pointing the way.
Art, I'll run a quart of Dot4 through all the calipers to freshen things up.
Kittysgreyvolvo, I've never used a power bleeder. Any tips?
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I replaced the MC with the same one specified here. The power bleeder wasn't working well, air bubbles kept coming out of the calipers, even after hours of bleeding. I ran a gallon of fluid through there. Finally gave up and tested. The brakes work. The floid loss previously noted in the MC reservoir has stopped. But the pedal still gets low after a long run on the freeway without hitting the brakes.
Maybe I need to get the bleeding done right? If not, maybe I should replace the front calipers and rotors($200)?
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Sounds like there still could be air in the system. 240's are the most difficult car to bleed the brakes on that I've ever encountered. Takes a lot of patience. Did you follow the braking bleeding sequence that is laid out in the Bentley or Haynes books?
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No I did not, I found instructions on this board.
I agree with your idea. I have the Bentley manual and will try again,after calling Motive to find out how I somehow screwed it up. Something was wrong -air leak- something...The fluid would finally run clear out of a bleeder after 5 minutes, then as I would go to close it up, air would come shooting out again. I go back up to check, and see no fluid in the front circuit of the MC reservoir. It was running dry, despite plenty of fluid in the Power Bleeder bucket.
Crawling around all last Sunday and I could not get the job done right. Oh well, if it were easy everybody would do it. This explains why people hire mechanics.
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I foolishly didn't realize that there are three bleeder bolts on the front calipers. Didn't study the Bentley manual,didn't remove the wheels first. Ashamed at my lack of research prior to working on a vital system like brakes; lack of diligence can lead to serious consequences. I've been lucky not to have caused an accident.
I will try again. The Motive people say use Teflon tape at the fittings, insure no air leakage, do a leak down test first. I have 3 quarts of new fluid. So, another day of bleeding brakes, this time by opening ALL of the bleed bolts.
Since the brakes have been consistently pulling to the left, slightly but persistently on first brake application, with the pull being gone after the second application, if the bleeding does not correct this pulling I have a plan. Suspecting poor passenger front caliper operation, I'm going to try a junkyard used passenger front caliper vetted by the old guy at the yard to see if that grabs the passenger front rotor with equal force.
Blundering on...
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Since you do having a little brake pulling that is a definite clue! As is a hot wheel after driving and not applying the brakes much or at all.
When you have the front passenger wheel off to bleed the brakes I suggest pulling the pads out. Then you can check the operation of that caliper. First, look for fluid leaks. Then check the movement of the pistons. Also look for unusual wear on the pads and the piston cylinder walls. This examination will quickly tell you the condition of that caliper. Art is probably right. It is most likely two issues. You might have a sticking caliper piston(s) AND air in the hydraulic system.
BTW - Think you can buy a rebuilt caliper for about $50.
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Thank you. I took a good look at the right side caliper while bleeding. No sign of leaks. Pads are about 1/2. The caliper grips the rotor so that it is fairly hard to move by hand. A light drag would be better I think. Also the rotor is badly worn, certainly out of spec.
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If the piston is having a difficult time releasing from the rotor when parked then it might not be releasing after brake use! Is there any deep scoring on the rotor?
IMHO - You could need a new caliper. Since the rotor is shot, if it were my car I would replace both. I would also consider putting new pads on both sides. And it certainly wouldn't hurt to check the brake parts on the other side before doing any work...:)
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Jwalker, I did as you suggested. The rotor on the passenger from was very badly worn. The drivers side less so, but past spec. I replaced both rotors and installed new calipers and pads. Bled the brakes. Made the commute today and still have the low pedal, even after replacing the leaking master cylinder a couple of weeks ago. I needed to replace all of these parts. Still, I am sorry that the pedal is still low if I don't hit the brakes for a while.
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Have you checked the octopus (brake line junction box) below the master cylinder for leaks? Sounds like something is still leaking. Booster checked out okay?
Sorry about all your brake troubles! My 90 240's brakes were perhaps the most problematic component in that car. Except in my car it was mostly the rear brakes. Sad, because when they are right 240 brakes are pretty damn good!!
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I don't know the location of the octopus valve, but the fluid level is constant. I guess the new MC did the trick. And the new calipers and rotors are an improvement.
I think there is still air in the system. Or Maybe the front wheel bearings are so worn out that they keep the pads from staying close enough to the rotors when I don't use the brakes for a while. They firm up and the pedal comes up pretty quickly with use though.
I have not even looked at the rear brakes. Maybe that is the problem.
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Did you follow the Bentley or Haynes brake bleed sequence and bleed the whole system including the rear brakes?
Take a look at the condition of the rear brakes. I'd check to make sure the calipers are operating properly and the pads aren't sticking. I had a continuous problem with my rear pads sticking.
Three other things to check:
1. Check the rear and front brake hose condition. Look for swelling.
2. There is a rear brake line proportioning valve. It is located at the junction of the hard (brass) brake lines. Follow one of the hard lines to the junction of the rear brake lines (proportioning valve). As I recall, located between the rear wheels but closer to the driver's side. Look for leaking.
3. Do the same in the front. Follow a hard line to the front junction box (the infamous octopus). Located directly below the master cylinder. Again, look for leaking. This could be the problem as this can leak internally with no visible external leak and no noticeable loss of fluid at the MC reservoir. BTDT too!!
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I will try the handbrake stop tomorrow.
How do you check caliper operation? Do you just look for leaks, see if the rotor stops when the brake is applied, and check for excessive drag?
How do you know if there is too much drag?
I can look for external leaks at the valve and octopus, but I think any leaking, if that is the problem, must be internal, since I'm not losing fluid anymore.
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I worked on the 244 today, and have more to report:
The handbrake stops the car very well. I do think there is a bit of slack in the cables that needs to be taken up.
No sign of external fluid leaks from the junction lines.
The rear calipers are working; the rotors do not turn if the brake is applied, and they are not leaking. But only one bleed bolt on the rear calipers? The front calipers have three.
The rear rotors are not thin from wear, just a bit glazed.
I bled the rear brakes using a Motive Power Bleeder. Little evidence of air bubbles traveling through the vinyl tubing into the fluid capture cup while exiting the system, possibly a small bubble or two. However, in a test drive, the pedal did feel firmer afterwards.
With wheels removed for brake inspection, I found that the rear calipers did not turn particularly easily by hand. The new front calipers resist being turned by hand somewhat too. While it isn't a great effort to turn them, they don't spin freely by any means. Are the brake pads supposed to pull free of the rotors slightly after brake application? I hope not, because mine don't.
This makes me worry that I have clogged check valves or something like that,leaving residual hydraulic pressure in the calipers even when brakes are not being used. Maybe that is why the pedal was getting low after 20 minutes on the freeway without any braking- cumulative frictional heat leading to spongy brakes.
As you recall, I had recorded front caliper temps of around 130-140 soon after leaving the freeway at the end of my hour long commute. This was before replacing the master cylinder and front calipers along with pads and rotors.
Thanks for all the advice.
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Hi , I'm still wondering about this.
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This has been a very long thread and I'm not going to read way back on this, When the brakes drag for any reason there will be noticeable warmth, maybe lots of it, when you feel the wheel centres after a run. Normally this happens on one, maybe two wheels only so you know where to check. Front wheels the same and a bit warmer than the rears can be just down to normal breaking especially after a fast run where you brake often or you tend to drive on your brakes rather than your gearbox, if manual. On smooth level ground you should be able to push the car along easily with one hand, in neutral and hand brake off of course. If not there is some degree of brake drag, the amount depends on how hard you have to push. Sticking caliper pucks that push the pads onto the discs and stay there have to be fixed. Manually levering them back and forth with a screwdriver and brake application plus some penetrant can work but the problem usually returns. That's a lot of pistons to check and fix. Brake hoses can have the inner lining break down and cause a sort of one way valve which also keeps the pressure on the pad. This can cause VERY hot brakes and at worse you can have smoke coming from the pad/brake as it gets red hot. New hoses to fix. I'm sure most of this has already been covered but bottom line seems to be a sympathetic brake overhaul without cutting any corners.
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Totally agree on the brake hoses. They can definitely deteriorate on the inside and constrict the flow of brake fluid. At the age of your car - 1985 right? - if the brake hoses are original they are overdue for replacement.
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I guess that must be it. After the new MC, front rotors calipers and pads didn't do it, the next step is to replace all the brake hoses. I found these hoses, they are the cheapest ones I could locate.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Volvo-265-245-GLE-264-240-242-Brake-Hose-Front-ATE-Set-of-4-1229347-/221865273175?fits=Make%3AVolvo%7CModel%3A240&hash=item33a8336757:g:RlEAAOSwHnFV3qEC&vxp=mtr
Installing them looks like it could become a tough job.
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Hello,
Are you sure you have ATE front calipers as Girlings are more popular on other 240's stateside?
Phil
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I'm not sure. I was about to pull the trigger on 4 Dorman H113300 hoses.
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun May 14 22:08 CST 2017 [ RELATED]
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ATE makes the Rear Calipers. Girling makes the Front Calipers.
BUT
ATE makes the Master Cylnder
ATE also makes the Flex Brake hoses....so do many other manufacturers and that fit other European cars, including Volvos.
For example...and this is NOT a rec that you buy from them, Just an Example. After all you are a Librarian and as such capable of Research
https://www.fcpeuro.com/Volvo-parts/244/Brake-Hoses?year=1985&e=914&m=142&page=1
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Yeah, CB, I was taken aback at the price on those Alfred Tevis branded hoses -- like maybe I had better put my stash in the safe. ;)
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
I don't know how I got over the hill without getting to the top
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I got some from a vendor on Ebay for about $9.00 each. They looked ok and fit well. Not too hard to install. A torch helped to warm the fittings before unscrewing the copper lines.
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Did that fix your problem?
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"I have not even looked at the rear brakes. Maybe that is the problem."
Now he tells us. Needs to be done. How is your hand brake? It should be able to stop you fairly quickly from, say, 30mph, even lock the wheels at that speed if you have enough arm power. It's there as an emergency brake, not just for parking.
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No loss of brake fluid what so ever?
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What was the temperature you measured when the brakes got low after cruising on the freeway? Just before you lose all brakes, they will get low as you lose half of the two circuits.
When you inspected the calipers, did the pistons retract freely? Did the pads ride smoothly in their ways? There; 3 questions. Listed below in case you forget:
1. Temp of the wheels immediately after noticing brake failure.
2. Ease of piston movement (all 12) in the calipers.
3. Ease of pad travel throughout their range (all 8).
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Most would rather be ruined by praise than saved by criticism.
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Art, thanks for the instructions. I need to get some answers, hopefully tomorrow when I can get my boy to lend a hand.
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Also, I should emphasize you have, apparently, two symptoms. The air you couldn't get out makes the pedal spongy. That same spongy won't change as you roll down the freeway. Nothing will change that spongy, but getting the air bled from the lines. That's one symptom.
The other symptom, the one you've had from the beginning it seems, is loss of pedal after driving some distance without using the brakes. That can only be caused by the heat of dragging pads. It will take a lot more to boil that fresh DOT4 than it did to boil the old wet mixture, but it still will boil if a caliper gets hot enough.
Two things to fix, I believe.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
I went to buy some camouflage trousers the other day but I couldn't find any.
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Since the pedal firms up with use, sure sounds like a MC to me.
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hi sages- agree. most likely culprit is a master cylinder which isnt holding pressure. have replaced this item in a variety of cars to solve the problem. once years ago an intermittent slow leak in the vacuum bladder of a power brake unit caused this problem. replacement of the canister corrected the problem. regards oldduke
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once years ago an intermittent slow leak in the vacuum bladder of a power brake unit caused this problem. replacement of the canister corrected the problem.
Wouldn't this just cause the brake pedal to go hard rather than to the floor?
No brake fluid loss (or fluid loss that seems to vanish into thin air) would have me agree on the master cylinder as the most likely cause.
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hi sages - agree bad mc is most likely cause. one of the pistons on the single shaft is probably not holding pressure;fluid could be leaking out the back where the pedal push rod connects to the plunger or could be getting pushed back into the resevoir. either way mc stinko. if vacuum leak is in power brake cannister or in vacuum hose could cause hard pedal or could cause low pedal. saw this once in my 62 dodge wherein the problem persisted after i replaced the mc and bled it 20 times to no avail. thanks tons oldduke
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Yep. Too off the cuff and from the hip. Sorry. Should've asked I-5 Librarian if the brake fluid was at any time low and that whether they needed to add brake fluid. Also, "... what color is your brake fluid in the MC reservoir?"
Without the vacuum servo, yep, more brake pedal travel with more foot force required if the hydraulics are good. (No leaks, no air in the lines, and so forth.)
Though as a 1985 240, at 32 years, a good look at the flexi-brake lines for bubbles or swollen lines (as in about to burst) or deep fractures in the outer rubber line sheath, revealing the hard flexi nylon underneath, would need a replace.
The flexi-lines and those check vales can suffer should one not flush in new brake fluid every two years or so. The fluid down at the brake calipers is far worse off then that you see in the MC reservoir. I'm overdue myself on two, yet while the fluid is still clear, it's rather a mid-tan color.
WA-state, where I-5 Librarian and his 1985 Volvo 244 reside, check emissions. No safety inspection. So, up to the owner to keep the rig in safe condition.
'Cept replacing flex brake lines is a painful, painful task.
Yep. The brake master cylinder. Use a motive power bleeder or like tool. A priceless tool. I used the pedal to bleed brakes after an MC replace, and even though I had a couple of pieces of wood to limit travel (probably not enough), I drove the piston.
https://www.motiveproducts.com/collections/import-power-bleeder-kits/products/0100-european-bleeder
Or like power bleeder tool.
There you go.
Ginger Root Boyeeeeeee.
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Without the vacuum servo, yep, more brake pedal travel with more foot force required if the hydraulics are good. (No leaks, no air in the lines, and so forth.)
But why then, if you remove the vacuum in the servo by pressing and releasing the brake pedal with the engine off a couple of times, does the brake pedal become hard and get a shorter travel?
If you then press the pedal, hold it down and start the engine, the new vacuum makes it go further down and the travel becomes longer again when you subsequently press and release the pedal.
What I mean is shown in this vid, it's also what my 245 does.
This has me wondering if a faulty brake servo could also over assist...
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But why then, if you remove the vacuum in the servo by pressing and releasing the brake pedal with the engine off a couple of times, does the brake pedal become hard and get a shorter travel?
Pressing the brake pedal releases the vacuum stored in the brake servo. So, you lose the vacuum assist at the pedal, the pedal become harder to push as the pedal action 'compresses' the brake fluid, and all the other stuff in the brake fluid.
Replacement atmosphere, as you press the brake pedal, I believe, come from inside the passenger compartment through an air filter through which the brake pedal linkage or rod travels.
If you then press the pedal, hold it down and start the engine, the new vacuum makes it go further down and the travel becomes longer again when you subsequently press and release the pedal.
Restoring the engine vacuum means the brake booster servo doo-hickey thingy means restoring the power assist in brake pedal action, so you can 'compress' all the stuff in the brake hydraulic in front of the piston in the MC bore.
Though, yeah, it would be useful to check for vacuum leaks as well as inspect the brake servo booster doo-hickey on I-5 Librarian's 1985 Volvo 244. It is 32 years, unless it (the servo) and the connection to engine vacuum all check out. (No vacuum leaks.)
Though I come to find out the (Made by Bendix I guess?) OEM Volvo PN 1229336 brake servo is no longer available. FCP Euro has one made by Pro Parts Sweden made in Taiwan.
Volvo Power Brake Booster (240 242 244 245 260) - Pro Parts 1229336
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/volvo-power-brake-booster-240-242-244-245-260-1229336
Though I'll bet you have better parts selection in Europa for Volvo 240. =^(
I'm still willing to defect to Switzerland or Finland. Does not matter what occupies the POTUS or the US Congress. In the age of the new elocutionary since the end of the US Civil War ...
And I left a new OEM wiper motor and a new OEM (appearing) brake servo booster on a few 240 in a Spokane, WA-area yunkyard. Got lots of taillights, though. Bunches of them. Most need some manner of repair.
I had to remind myself how the brake booster thingy works right now.
Welp, US and MO-state taxes are complete. Huzzah.
Thank you. Sorry to go on so.
Well, I-5 Librarian, whayddya thinkin'?
I tried to think, but nuttin' happened! Happy Friday!
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I recently replaced mine with this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brake-Master-Cylinder-23-68005-Volvo-240-260-Series-w-Gas-Engines-/300725768335?fits=Make%3AVolvo%7CModel%3A240&hash=item4604a7108f:m:m47eXLuRIBfgipJAw-WU9oA
and was very satisfied with the price and quality.
Peter
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Might be excess play in the front wheel bearings. This causes the disc to knock the pads back more than normal. Means you have to move the pistons more to get them onto the discs. That equals more pedal travel. This can also happen at the back but the calliper pistons been sticky more likely than the bearings. Rear callipers tend to get forgotten as far as maintenance is concerned
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Thanks for a very interesting discussion of the possibilities. It is surprising how much a guy can learn here from the experts. I guess the MC might be worth replacing. I'd better get a power bleeder I guess.
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Aha! A good deal of fluid seems to have dissipated from the master cylinder reservoir.
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"Aha! A good deal of fluid seems to have dissipated from the master cylinder reservoir."
Aha what??
The level in the reservoir is normally lower as the pads wear. If not due to pad wear you've got a leak you need to find. When you find which is the reason for the level change, then say "Aha!"
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
What is going on out there on your interstates? We see cell phone videos of gangs on dirt bikes beating the snot out of motorists.
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Aha! The rear of the master cylinder is leaking, which would account for the steady loss of fluid in operation and the other symptom.
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