We have a 1993 240 dl and it has this thing where you turn the key and you get a click but nostart. the click sound though comes from very near the glove box. It always starts but some times takes 7 clicks to do so. Car is in good tune and runs fine.

I have replaced The

Starter
ignition switch
neutral safety switch
radio suppression relay

Is there anything else in this equation that needs looked at
Thanks
Paul

I don't think your car has a radio suppression relay. I wonder what was actually replaced.

I'd be looking for corrosion in the battery cables.

Right, there is no radio suppression relay. But the auxiliary fan relay looks like a RSR from a 7/9.

I agree with your suggestion on the battery cables. But people want to replace parts.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

They told me I had type-A blood, but it was a Type-O.

The battery cables at the posts looks spotless. I did put in the new FP Replay last nite and started it two times no clicks just turned right over and fired up. Its my daughters car that she drives to school so we shall see if she complains about it anymore.. The car I mean. there is always something to complain about when you are a 16year old girls.

Paul

Well

My daughter says its still doing the click thing before finally turning over. so You guys are right. So whats next??? Should i find the other ends of the battery cables? How about a new battery? As you can tell I am a part replace tech. On the other hand it always starts eventually for the last 12 months anyhow.

Paul

Ok that was fun to read about!
Life at 16 does get more complicated, when the toys are getting larger!

I think we must lost the interpretation of a click happening where and to what a click somewhere else could mean?

We went with the click as being under the dash but was there anything else going on?

Does the engine crank over but does not start each time?

Is there absolutely no cranking and only a faint click to the right under the Dash and then it cranks?

When she or you do this operation, does it seems to me to VARYING the symptoms any or just number of times it clicks in succession?
Without a good follow up of descriptions or collaboration of what is expected to happen, It is the HOLE in the donut picture on both ends of the post.

She just needs to learn to break down the sequence, for all of us, but that's going to require some teaching about the cars inner workings.
Sorry for ya bub! Drivers Education, chapter two!

I like the bad cables idea as well. Voltage drop can be a real killer in, down stream, things causing intermittency! High resistance, anywhere, is an electrical gremlin!

My thoughts are also going with a faulty ignition switch, that's replaceable from the back side, by removing to screws.

The reason I like the switch idea is because its touched by human hands. Things handled wear or get beat up by abuse a lot.
I could tell you a story about "A" driver side door lock on a relatives car! Amazing how fast people can STAB into those things over and over and then, wonder why they have to wiggle it!

These switches are very reliable but at the ages of these cars, it maybe about the right time.
Those contacts have to seperate functions even though it seems like a seamless motion!

In other words, maybe the circuits contacts are breaking up during the transitions dropping ICU or ECU power supply and therefore the relay goes bonkers!

How old is the CPS? They get flaky in half the time and it's between the switch and the computers.

Just my guess like I always do! But hey, I'm far cheaper than the man in blue with those flashy arm patches! :-)

Phil

Ok

I got the cps aka crank positioning sensor.

I have replaced one on my 91 940 SE turbo. Is the location the same on a 93 240? If so it was easy to do. I thought that was more of the car turns over and not starting thing as opposed to a click no turn over

thanks
Paul

RSR

All good points so I will clarify. There is no cranking at all. Just the faint click under the dash. But after a few clicks she begins to then turn over always starts.

I have already replaced the Ignition switch.

So whats this cps you speak of?? Where can I get one and are instructions in the blue bently

I have seen a box like processor behind the glove box.

Ok I think I understand what may be going on, Now, that we know the engine is not spinning at all.

The click is the fuel pump relay going through a pre pump stage to charge the fuel rail for a quicker start and less chance for it to stumble.
The ECU does this each time the ignition switch is turn off and back on.

The CPS is a sensor, I mentioned, responds to the flywheel being turned around by the starter.
It is located behind the head of the engine and is mounted on the peripheral of the transmission housing at the top.
It senses this movement and sends a pulse to the ICU to fire the plugs. All of this happens all at once, to also, turn on the ECU functions which adds fuel to the engine. That's when it starts.

If the engines spins and starts without any further issues, like dying or making popping sounds, the CPS is not your problem.

So, from what I can tell you have an issue with the starter solenoid or the cables from the battery.
I always start at the power source when troubleshooting.

First I will explain what needs to happen.
A solenoid on the starter motor assembly pushes out a gear that engages the flywheel. Once engaged the electric motor should turn and crank the engine.

The problem could be inside the starter or getting power repeatedly to the solenoid via the ignition switch circuit. This is why I had to ask for more in depth details because Devils and Gremlins live there together! Good to know about your ignition switch condition.

There is a positive small wire from the positive on the battery feeds a fuse panel and other goodies that make the car do lots of things!
It goes to a fender distribution block....Make sure it's good and solid.

Another positive MAIN cable runs down to the starter motor terminal from the battery.
There is another positive cable there that runs under the engine to the alternator.
Both have to be connected tightly for a good circuit going both ways!
Starting current from the battery to start the motors and for charging the battery back up.


There is a main negative cable that connects onto the engine block and one to the cars body. These are very important cables.
All of the switched circuits get their power from that negative side of the battery.
Some people like to think of it the other way around. That's ok, until you find out EVERYTHING QUITS, if you have no ground or negative cable connection.
Its the big switch, electrically speaking of course.

You said the cables looked good but that may not be good enough. Loose lugs or corrosion under insulation or in crevices raises havoc with them electrons!

If you are reasonably proficient with a cheap digital voltmeter you can locate deficient battery cables fairly easy. Other circuits are a little more tricky.

You take the leads from the voltmeter and run the meter in parallel to each side of the cables.
What you are looking for is a absolute zero reading in digits or as close as you can get to zero.
Anything HIGHER than 0.02 volts on the lowest setting of the meter is leading to something could be wrong or growing wrong with green stuff! We don't like green or white stuff!
Any whole number in the first slot like 0.1 is not good!

WHILE doing the test you should have something on drawing current out of the battery. I use the headlights.
What this is called is detecting a resistance or voltage drop discrepancy.
Any corrosion will act like a "load" within what "should be" a free flowing circuit of electrons.
I like said zero's are friendly to us when testing this way.

When checking the charge on a battery (across a circuits polarity poles) those tenths can tell big stories.
Below are "Rest voltages." They are not hot off a charger or having been charged recently. These would be called a superficial charge on plates and electrolytes?

At rest,
Good battery= 12.65+
Half dead= 12.45
Near dead to dead= 12.35

When I said tricky, you would have to get all the way to the other end and read exactly the input voltage and calculate a load value? Nah, not on big cables or what length of the small ones!

So using a voltmeter can help see and find them there troubled electrons!

If you find nothing, I think you are looking at a tired starter! Brushes, solenoid or sticking drive unit. (:-(
Once you get it figured out pass it on to your daughter on how it works! It will be worth it later to her down the road!

Phil

Phil

So i Fried my voltmeter and will have to get another

but... I was able to check the positive cable to both the alternator and the fuse area by the fender all the connections are very clean and very tight also no green and no frays. Positive cable to the starter also very clean and tight. By the way the starter is also a new rebuilt Bosch unit.

I was able to fine the negative cable to the fender and it is also very clean and tight. The neg cable that goes to the block is very tight but is coated in old greasy oil. will that make a difference

I did hook up the battery to the charger and it shows a full charge immediately.

One thing though there is this wire that goes from the alternator to this round thing that screws into the block that was a little loose what is that?

Paul

"One thing though there is this wire that goes from the alternator to this round thing that screws into the block that was a little loose what is that?"

This sounds like the alternator ground wire. Usually some sort of blue, about 10 gauge, red sleeve on one end that is a marker and strain relief but normally hides the utter failure of the crimp connection underneath. n When it fails (normally intermittently) the charge light will flicker (or not) and you will chase brush kits, new alternators and all sorts of things as the source of the problem when all along it is stupid little wire.

"I did hook up the battery to the charger and it shows a full charge immediately. "

This does not rule out a bad battery (though it is pretty good indication) as our race car recently had a battery that show 12.5 volts about 2 seconds after hooking up the charger but withing 30 seconds it was reading 8.6 volts with it disconnected. Click the starter and it dropped to about 4 volts and obviously did not do much.

If this is an automatic, I am starting to think neutral safety switch.

That said, the rebuilt starters have gotten very bad reputation of late including that that are supposed to be genuine Bosch.

Did I mention I have also replaced the nuetral saftey switch.

Yes you did in one of your other post.

Do you know how old the battery is?

That one slipped between both of us!

Many batteries have their lives shorten when they sit for long periods without routine usage or a float type maintenance charger on them.


Phil

So i bought a new battery and the problem is solved!!!!

I cant believe I put all those other parts in first.

Paul

Don't feel bad we all jumped around with you on this one!

Took me thinking about what someone else said before I wrote a long story instead of just saying, get a new battery!

Phil

Yes read the battery voltage while cranking the engine.
Dan

Ok Here is the latest. I do not how old the battery is but the car is getting driven every day. I now have had her starting the car with the lights off, the fan off, and the radio off, and she has not had a problem since. What do you think?

Paul

None of these are in the circuit UNTIL the engine starts and runs, switched off or on makes no difference.

Full current goes to the starter and all the others...fuel pump, ignition.

Take it to your nearest AutoZone and have them test the battery and charging system.
Dan

I think you you covered it there all in that post Onkel!

I never thought about the battery having a nearly shorted out cell!
I forgot to talk about the alternator grounding wire as well.
Your right they sure can get funky or forgotten about way down there.

If his cables are good he is bouncing between the three things you mentioned.

If he has another car, he can try switching batteries as the tray in these cars will just about take any size battery.

It appears to be the classic, intermittent, no spin the engine trick! He said heat has something to do with it.
? Engine heat again, on the battery maybe ?

Good job!

Phil

Hi Paul

Just read both your posts. Sorry to hear about you frying your voltmeter. That should have been pretty hard to do using the volts part of the meter.

Did you look for a fuse on the inside? Some, not so cheap meters, will have one or two fuses protecting ampere settings. Was yours a digital or an analog meter?

Guess you having changed the starter is a surprise for me again like the ignition switch.

The tid bit about the phenomenon happening when the engine is hot does not rule out the starter. In fact, old starters and rebuilts can suffer the same symptoms. Heat causes excess resistance in coils and the starter is full of them.
A rebuilt motor could have been turned in after it was overheated and a rebuilder missed it. It would not be the first time even though it says Bosch.

The next time this happens try the broom stick trick! Tap the starter motor and the solenoid several times. Try starting it a again, to see if it kicks right over or not. New and old parts don't always get along with each other!

I have a neighbor that replaced a starter on his Ford diesel recently. He got it from O'Reilys.
He was connecting up the terminal on the solenoid when the stud just twisted off from the plastic it was molded into.
He had to pull it and return it.

He got it there and they were out of the same one but had another one in stock.
It was a lifetime warranty one and get this, it was only a few dollars more!

He was not happy with the clerk to say the least!

After a short time of discussion with him there was another thing that he remembered, The clerk put the broken, the non lifetime one, into the box the lifetime one came out of! Right at the counter.
He didn't pay attention to what happen to his core when he left the store the first time. All of this was only hours apart too!

In looking over studs and the plastic he said it was made different and so was the color of the plastic if that makes a difference? This one he didn't twist off. He said he made it on there tighter than his first attempt to bolting it up! Flat out defective was his conclusion.

We both were standing there talking and wondering why sell two separate rebuilts slow close in price but a brand new starter is so much more money. Also the new one was not in stock because it's an OEM one and is a special order!

Bottom line, there must be, a pig and a poke, story with stores and the rebuilders.

Remember the poking stick! :-)

Phil

Phil

Awesome post thanks i will start looking with the volt meter next sat and find out.

You know I also suppose somebody at the car stereo store could of hacked into some wiring when they added an i pod docking station??

oh and one last detail it mostly happens when the car is hot?

thanks again for all the help
Paul

fuel pump relay is behind the glove box and integral to starting the car.

Yup, sounds like a fuel pump relay. Had one go bad on my 1990 240.

Ok

Thats 2 for the fuel pump relay I happen to have a new spare so will swap it out and let you know. I did look at the relay that is currently in the car but it is only 3 years old so i left it there.

Paul