|
|
|
Hoping someone here can assist me with finding the issue on my 90 240 Wagon. Went out to go to work a week ago, wouldn't start. Now, I've had this issue twice in the 4 years I've had the car, and both times it was a bad fuel pump relay, so I always keep a spare now. Popped the new one in, still no start.
Checked the fuses, okay. Held the fuel pump relay while I turned the key, feel it "click". 25amp blade fuse checked out fine, but I replaced it anyway since it looked original. Timing belt appears to be okay - everything turns as it should when its cranking. Pulled the coil wire and a plug [separately] to check for spark - all good. Jumped the #4 & #6 fuses, fuel pump 'whirrs" fine. Checked the voltage at the coil - looks okay...
Not sure what to try next.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Well, unexpectedly - the ECU that I purchased from pageda arrived today! Short version: I plugged it in and the car started right up! Hooray!
Long version: made a silly mistake while taking out the old ECU, so when I plugged in the new one, the car wouldn't start, and the FPR wouldn't even click! After a solid 30 seconds of panic... started checking everything I've looked over the last 3 weeks - tried my other relays, checked the fuses, sprayed some starter fluid in there to see if it would start. NO! Then, I checked the battery. Quick backstory: when I bought the car, it had an old 'rust beater' system hooked to the battery. I've left it there, knowing it didn't work. So when I disconnected the negative terminal, I decided: dammit, I'm going to remove this piece of junk! So, I disconnected both the positive and negative sides and removed the little wire connections and ripped the whole thing out no problem. Turns out, when I reconnected the battery, I missed the little red wire for the 25A fuse... so, when I went to check the battery, there it was smiling at me. Hooked it up, boom, started right up.
Thanks to Art, Phil and Dan for all your assistance. Learned a little about the electrics in my car, and will be watching for some good cheap spare parts in the future... if any of you guys are ever in Buffalo, give me a shout and I'll buy you a beverage.
Walter
|
|
-
|
|
|
One question: should I trash the old ECU or does anyone out there repair them?
|
|
-
|
|
|
Glad it's running! I am not clear if the old ECU is good or bad? If it's good keep it as a spare just in case you need to trouble shoot in the future.
If it's bad, pitch it. There are rebuilders out there but not sure if they would give you anything for it.
Dan
|
|
-
|
|
Inspect the pins on the old ECU. See any white crusty funk on them pins?
Corrosion could be the culprit. If the zinc load rust beater system was incorrectly installed (grounded, we mean), could enhance any case for wire harness corrosion along any of the wire harnesses, certainly those that control the engine like at the wire harness connector for the fuel injection ECU as I have on a spare ECU. Yet to clean it. DeOxIt.
And I did the same thing on my 1990 240 some time ago. I replaced the 25 AMP engine control system fuse golder with a sealed design in the engine bay. Forgot to reconnect the 25 AMP fuse holder to the +12VDC distribution block. My perceptual myopia.
Congrats. The mighty brickboard.com: Making your Volvo auto ever mightier!
cheers,
Sat-Your-Day Packing MacDuff.
--
Volvo 164: The Mightiest, most Powerful, most Beautiful Volvo Automobile Forever
|
|
-
|
|
|
When this does get fixed be sure to let us know what the solution was.
Thanks,
Joseph in New Mexico
|
|
-
|
|
Try to start it while the jumper is connected between fuses 4 and 6.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Bakers trade bread recipes on a knead to know basis.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Forgot to mention: tried that, with no luck. Also: I made sure there is gas in the tank (fuel gauge is broken).
|
|
-
|
|
|
When you pulled the plug, was it dry?
If you are not so sure about the 25A fuse wiring and fuel injection relay, you can verify all of that simply by checking for power on the orange wire of the AMM with the key on.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
No trees were harmed in the posting of this message...however an extraordinarily large number of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
|
|
-
|
|
|
There was one post like yours recently on here and it turned out to the fuel pump relay.
Actually is was the other half that turns on the fuel injection system.
You need to make sure the socket terminals of the relay are tight and show no signs of overheating or corrosion as well.
He popped the cover off on the relay and wrap the contact plate down with a rubber band or a shoe lace. Anything non conductive.
He said it fired right up and was off to get a real relay from a dealership. The other one in there was only a few months old but was an aftermarket replacement.
Haven't seen any other posts until yours. I hope it was not you? Edit: I just checked, it was AtlantaVolvo post back at me! September 3rd-9th. That worked well!
Have you ever reheated or thickened solder on old relays? It's another option to try.
You got to make sure it can generate enough magnetism and the contacts pinch together nicely.
If that doesn't work try starting fluid induced through a vacuum line into the intake manifold. It might take a few seconds to get enough in there.
Then crank to see if it hits for a few seconds. This will tell if it was fuel injection or valve and spark timing still off!
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
Okay, broke out a soldering iron and some rubber hose and tried a couple things:
Took the brand-new/aftermarket relay and popped off the cover, [which already clicked on KPII ] and jammed a small piece of rubber hose in there to engage the 2nd switch and cranked it - no start.
For grins, I resoldered the contacts on an old OEM relay - I now get a click on KPII [which I guess means its fixed, because it didn't do this when it died 3 years ago], but no start - also tried with the rubber hose jammed engage the 2nd, with no luck.
Kind of eliminates the relay as an issue, correct?
I'll double check my voltage at the fuses and then check at the fuel pump next...
Any other ideas of where to look?
|
|
-
|
|
|
Interesting procedure term called JAMMING?
I don't get how you jam something in, which usually means between or to wedge. You want to push the magnetic plate downwards to lower both contacts closed.
Maybe you meant you put a rubber hose on top and jammed the cover back on? That's not positive enough!
There is no need to replace the cover it can be left open. Just let it hang in the air away from it contacting anything made of metal.
You should be able to see the two contacts closed. One on each side.
You can wrap the relay with a rubber band or a thin shoe lace to pull it down tight.
After that put the relay back into the socket. The terminals on the relay are plenty long.
Did you confirm the terminals in the socket are good, especially, the side that carries the pump current?
If these circuits are closing and you have voltage on those contact arms that's is all you can do.
The coil of the relay gets grounded by the ECU.
If yours clicks, when cranking, that's working.
Is the coil wire sparking while cranking? Check by holding it close to a shock tower stud sticking up or to the engine someplace.
If so then confirm its making it to the spark plugs through the rotor. Those rotor buttons do fail.
If all this confirms, use starting fluid sprayed into the intake manifold and it had better hit then, by gosh!
If not the timing is off, like in the belt or in the distributor. The CPS make fire for the plugs and triggers the ECU and ICU.
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
Okay, I'm a little confused: when I turn my ignition key to position 2, the contact on the outer edge of the relay engages. Turning the key to crank the motor, the other contact in the middle of the relay, doesn't move at all. Jamming a piece of rubber hose in that gap in the middle engaged that second contact plate...
Just went out and double checked to make sure I didn't put the relay in backwards or something... tried it again with the hose, both contacts are engaged and still no start. Also, jumpered 87/2 & 30 on the relay socket and heard the fuel pumps come on...
I'm certainly no expert in any of this, so if I'm making an incorrect assumption/overlooking something basic, let me know.
And please know that I greatly appreciate the assistance! Starting week #3 with only one car for our family, getting a little flustered.
Thanks,
Walter
|
|
-
|
|
|
Ok, let me think about what you are doing to see if we are missing something.
When you first turn key to position two, the ECU turns on the relay for a couple seconds and then drops it back off.
Not until you crank the engine does it pull the relay back on. It does this because the ECU/ICU sees a signal from the CPS or hall sensor on earlier cars.
If you do not have that pulse the ignition does not come on either.
If you do not have that pulse the fuel injection does not come either.
Just because we can manually close that relay it does not guarantee the engine will start. It only take the safety feature of the relay out of play.
This relay can and will kill the car but we are bypassing that feature.
We just want to get both those contacts down together to close those circuits.
It runs the pumps and O2 sensor but it takes the ECU to keep it closed by a magnetization coil.
It pulls that plate down like a rubber band tighten squarely over it firmly.
You can close it with you fingers as it won't hurt you unless it eventually gets too warm somewhere? That could be a failing relay? Just something to note in the back of the brain.
I really like this!
Art Benstein provided a picture for checking the power at the AMM. That same orange wire is on the relay circuit powered by position two of the key switch.
He says if you have power there with the key on it is in play! It needs to be there while cranking also!
Who knows it might be an ignition switch when it's in position three?
Its another nice place to check things first without having to dive under the dash!
Let's say it ran but lousy. If you had no power, there at the AMM pin or wire it would not be working. That would explain why it ran lousy. Only a broken wire to there or its pin connector could be loose and pushed upwards.
You would see that it looked different from the others by doing his procedure.
So, if we back up to your problem, you might not have spark ICU or the ECU not turning the fuel on because of it or a missing CPS signal. REMEMBER the relay can do the same thing so we want to rule that out.
Yes you can put jumpers in the same as you did to run the pumps. But the ECU/ ICU will make no noise.
That leaves you to go check for spark and/or wet plugs.
I like starting fluid to check the mechanics of engine function as well! Hopefully all in one fell swoop!
That is why I posted some steps to verify what might be happening. A pointer of direction.
I know, You are getting flustered. Your statement about putting the relay in backwards, is nothing but second guessing yourself, as it's not possible to fit all the terminals into the socket.
The relay is nothing more than a two pole switch with a single throw direction...downward. It controls two separate circuits simultaneously.
There are possibly two fused power circuits controlled and it serves as double safety shut down. It help stops some battery drain, if the key is left on, through O2 sensors heaters and possible computers or the AMM.
I have not researched that. It's just a darn remote controlled switch that I can close and eliminate.
Just be calm and move through the process of elimination. You will get it going!
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
Thank you for that very thorough and patient explainer! I've tried a few things since I got home from work, hopefully this can help narrow things down a bit:
1. I bound up the relay (both the old, resoldered one and the brand new one) really tight and tried to start - same result.
2. Checked for voltage again at the orange AMM wire - did this previously, but did not do that while cranking the motor. Got good voltage at the wire at KPII and while cranking.
3. Double checked my spark plugs after all the cranking: dry.
4. Starter fluid: sprayed a good shot into the intake and the car rumbled to life for a good half second before dying. Forgot what that glorious noise sounded like!
5. Jacked up the car and to see if there was any voltage at the fuel pump - no. Not in KPII, not while cranking. Didn't think I'd find anything there, but since its easy to access, figured I'd check it.
6. Socket where the fuel pump relay plugs in. I mapped out the 6 terminals and took the voltage at OFF/KPII/and while cranking the motor. Hope this makes sense, but here goes:
KP2 - 12 volts at terminal 30, trace amount (like .1-.3?) at 85
Crank - 12 volts at terminal 30, trace amount at 87/2, and 1-2 volts at 85 and 87/1
Thanks,
Walter
|
|
-
|
|
|
Try 12 volts directly to the main fuel pump to see if it works.
Dan
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi,
Thank you for your kind words I try my best but the post do get long.
I was trying again to put down some logic, for the arrows you found, pointing to what was right with the car and what might be wrong.
In doing so I lost everything I was posting to blank land!
Sometimes when I switch to other pages and to do the copying addresses thing I lose it or a time out happens! (:-(
This is what I found but the schematic fails to label the relay. It labels all kinds of terminal numbers on the other components but not the one we need. Darn it!
http://www.volvowiringdiagrams.com/volvo/240%20Wiring%20Diagrams/Volvo%20240%201990.pdf
Go to about page 18 out of the 20.
On the left side you will see the system relay and colors of wires. No numbers like you mentioned!
You will see two notes on fuses. One from the battery + terminal. There is a junction box on the fender that guy runs through.
The number 4 is in the door Fuse panel. Make sure they are hot, all wires connected and all very clean!
I think you jump those out but it did not run. So this pushes the thought of no injectors are clicking!
Ok pass this conclusion, I need you to have Art Benstien tell you what to do!
The ECU has some influence on operations. Powering the relay and the injectors VIA the orange wires and yellow/ black.
You can see where they run.
You can also see the red wires that look to me go to the pumps somehow?
This is where Art has the expertise that I do not!
I have not studied how it all works mainly because I have never experienced a shut down like yours!
I have had the bad relay or some corroded fuses. Even a bad connection on the main fuel pump but not so fuel related that the starting fluid told us!
Yours appears to be starting from the other end or should I say in the middle?
The pumps stops fuel but the ECU works or that orange to the injectors.
It's the last thing I want to do is condem an ECU when it could be a connector. He knows about those or a loss of power from some other direction using a ground!
I suggest if he does not catch this post tomorrow you might try the e-mail contact route to him.
You could get another poster as well, that picks up where I have gotten you!
I feel you are very close to putting your finger on the problem, so soon, it scares me! (:-)
I will be watching after I get some sleep!
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi Phil,
Here is a map for a '91 (I recall you have one) on which I've scribbled the relay terminal numbers (to the right and respectively). The wire colors are better for communication, I think, as long as you stick with the 240, but the terminal numbers have cross-marque significance.
My guess was Walter needs a new ECU. The one he has probably has a pink label and exhibits the well-known loss of fuel pump ground behavior. This "fuel pump ground" is actually the output of the transistor that operates the fuel relay found on the one pin Walter does not mention, 86/2, connected at the blue/green wire.
However, when I asked Walter if he could have the car running if only the jumper was left on to supply fuse 4 with battery, he said he forgot to tell us he tried that old trick already. Oh well. Maybe this drawing will help you help him. The major difference between the 90 and 91 as relates to this drawing is the source of the battery voltage for terminal 30 on the relay. In the 90, it comes from the 25A fuse under the hood. In the one pictured below, the fuse has been moved inside the car to #6.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
If 4 out of 5 people SUFFER from diarrhea… does that mean that one enjoys it?
|
|
-
|
|
|
Back again and thanks for all the help. Key piece of information learned today: "backprobe!" When I took voltage the other night at the relay socket, I didn't have the relay plugged in... so, I think that skewed the results. Doh! Like I said, "learning" - I feel I can tackle mechanical issues pretty well, but this electrical stuff bugs me...
So, now I've gone and done it from the correct side with the relay in, and here we go:
on KPII, I've got good voltage at 87/1 (orange), 30 (red), and 85 (orange). 86/1 (black/yellow) drops from 12v to 1-3v when the key is turned to KPII. Nothing on 87/2 (red/yellow) and 86/2 (blue/green). Also, Art you mentioned that I should see 86/2 move toward 12v for a moment when the key is placed in KPII - I do not see that.
Does this point to ECU failure? Should I apply 12v to the blue green wire and see if it'll start?
|
|
-
|
|
|
Yes, I agree " back probe" is a good word to learn and something to try.
Pageda, has got me to thinking a little more. Good or bad I don't know yet!
He said two relays and I said what? I think he means both contact sides of the one and only one relay.
Don't go putting "power to anything" is the best policy to follow with these black boxes all the time!
The unsung the voltmeter is your safest way to "SEE" what is going on! Back probing!
I think you can back probe the ECU at pins 20 & 21. Those two power the relay coil. These also go to 86/1 & 86/2 on the relay socket.
A voltmeter should read voltage there and some magnetism should be felt, on top of the moving plate, with a lightweight or small metal screwdriver when on! Rubber band or not.
The voltmeter can and will probably show a reverse in polarity at times. I surmised this, as I see a diode in series to the relay coil, inside the outline of the relay on the schematic.
I'm guessing, that the ECU turns on one way for the pre-pump mode and then reverses for continuous run mode.
I have seen diodes in some relays used in an AC applications. DC coils, as far as I know, do not need them.
The diode is used in these to reduce chatter of the contacts on a frequency wave. Sometimes this is called a "shadow" relay in nomenclatures I have read in catalogs.
I'm totally guessing again, but I think it has something to with possible a capacitance versus current flow direction depending on a type off diode used. I have just read about this so perhaps someone can help me understand varactor diodes.
Since you have closed the relay manually the ECU is out of the picture.
Both relays or those two contact sides should be conducting as if in run mode from the ECU.
When you turn the key on the pumps should be running. The car will not run until the CPS signal hits the ICU.
We know it works because of the starting fluid.
We know power is on the orange wires.
What we have left is to get the ECU to ground those fuel injectors with some closing pulses that open the injectors.
My guess it is the transistor that may be bad like Art has found in the past.
Pin 18 on the ECU should read a voltage that's is coming from the other side of the injectors.
Since they each have resistance in "parallel" there will be some small amount voltage drop on the meter.
This is with one lead to ground and the other on pin 18 or that color wire to it in the harness.
The meter does not conduct so the injectors will not fire open!
No matter how fast you ever grounded that circuit you would get a lot of gas.
It would dump any residual pressure on the rail.
Right after you would have gas to maybe make it rumble.
I can't not recommend this as a test for many reasons.
Just letting you know the sequence of how I think it works.
Art can play battleship with me, as with any of my statements and he can blow me out of the water!
You talked about learning, aren't we all!
Another thing that might be is possibility is the ECU is not grounded either by its chassis bolts or a wire if it uses one.
I would not hold my breath on it but a dead car running on starting fluid, hey, worth a check!
Especially, if you replace this one, make sure the newer one is!
That's it for me. This post sure has taken off hasn't it!
NewMexico240, at the bottom, is waiting and quietly watching!
He might have or had a car like yours.
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
In retrospect, Phil, testing the fuel computer should have started with the easy-to-perform OBD sensor and actuator tests. This would have saved a lot of guesswork and time. That should have occurred before checking power and ground to it, simply because it is so quick and easy.
The "pink stinkers" usually fail with just the fuel pump ground problem, but to assume they all do wasted some time.
Yes, we all ought to learn something in the accumulation of experience.
You mentioned pin 18. Let's say OBD did not work, as in this case. One could, with the key on and the fuel pumps running on the 4-6 jumper, momentarily ground pin 18 to save a trip to fetch starting fluid to verify ignition. It might be just a bit easier to reach by pulling the boot back on an injector connector, if one could be careful to poke the ground wire in the correct pin with the green/white wire. Ground the other pin and blow the main fuse.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Phil - I just ordered a 951 ECU from pageda on here, but while I wait for it to arrive, I'll poke around with it a little, see if there's a loose connection/ground/whatever. You never know... if that turns out to be the case, I'll have a spare!
Will post with the update once the new ECU is installed.
Thanks,
Walter
|
|
-
|
|
|
Don't put 12V to the blue/green wire. If you do, or did, the ECU will for sure be ruined if it was not before. The voltage you see on that wire is current limited by the relay coil, and it should be 12V after the first second of the key being in KP-II. Then it should drop toward ground when the car starts and runs. Talking about a working car here.
But previously you said the pumps came on when you grounded the blue/green wire. And while they were running, the car would not start. Next step: try the OBD.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
A bank is a place that will lend you money, if you can prove that you don’t need it.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Thanks Art!
I knew you would come through for us!
I did not realize that pink or possible mustard colored ECU's were up in the years this far! My error thinking they were all white by now.
I doubt I have this diagram unless I printed it out and stashed it in with others I do have.
I have a notebook binder, I keep out in the shop. But at one in the morning in was not so handy to go get. It's about a half acre away.
I have bookmarked this post on my iPad now.
I feel the same way about the ECU going south on him!
He has to many places dead or he has his meter hooked on the same side of the circuit at times.
It is for this reason he needed you expertise. I just don't know where to tell him to find the hot spots!
This diagram will give him a road to follow from fuses and to the components. This way he can pick the easiest place to find the necessary wire paths with colors like you say!
He has done real good working with me but I do have my limitations and cried for our master Uncle Art in these matters! (:-)
Yes, he is on the verge of finding something simple or the bad news with the ECU.
The good news is Pageda is on board with us as well!
The more computer screens the better in most cases and He helps with ECU sources.
It's nice to know you guys had my back!
Phil
|
|
-
|
|
|
I was thinking ECU, but had not seen that he tried to power the pump directly. I think if he provides the ground to the blue /green wire on the relay the is a chance the engine will run.
Please note that is not a good fix as it bypasses the safety feature designed into the system to shut down fuel flow if there is a problem. Best bet is to replace the ECU with a white label 561 or 951 non EGR. If it is an EGR system he wants a white label 556, 933, or 946. There may be others as well?
Dan
|
|
-
|
|
|
I just tried this - I grounded 86/2 (blue/green) and I could hear the pump come on when the key was put in KPII, but no luck starting...
|
|
-
|
|
|
The loss of this fuel pump ground only is a common way for the pink label 561 ECU to die, but it could have suffered other illnesses. Quickest, of course, is to swap in a white label 561 or a 951. That might be your next step, unless you become unflinching in proving the ECU is at fault.
I forget, did you attempt the actuator test mode 3 of the diagnostics on board?
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops. On my desk, I have a work station..
|
|
-
|
|
|
I have not tried the on-board diagnostics. I will look into and post results...
|
|
-
|
|
|
I have heard OBD has no LED flashes with a dead ECU.
Dan
|
|
-
|
|
|
"I have heard OBD has no LED flashes with a dead ECU."
Yes, but no LED action is not conclusive for a dead ECU.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.
|
|
-
|
|
|
FYI, just ordered a 951 ECU from pageda on here. I will post when I have it installed. Thanks for all the assistance.
Walter
|
|
-
|
|
|
Good choice.
If misery loves company, read this thread:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=313805
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Just did the OBD test: unresponsive. Ignition on, wire in position 2, LED stays on constantly - pushed the button 3x (>1, <3 seconds, etc.) -- no flashes. Tried multiple times... Also tried the wire in position 6 [EGR] and that flashed 10x or so... I don't think I have EGR, but at least the thing showed some sign of life.
So, not to jump ahead but: question about finding a good ECU - I'm looking for a white label 561 - were those only in 240s or were they in 7/8/9xxs as well? Also - year range? Not a lot of 25+ year old daily drivers in Buffalo, but there are a couple of 740 "parts cars" on craigslist...
Whatever tips/suggestions you have for finding one of these would be great.
Thanks,
Walter
|
|
-
|
|
|
I think grounding the blue / green wire should let it start, are you sure the relay is good? Do you hear both relays close one at a time while you turn the key from off to KPII? Do the relays remain closed?
Do you have spark and fuel at the plugs?
Dan
|
|
-
|
|
|
Definitely have spark and the car will start w/starter fluid. Unless all this messing around has broken it, the relay is good.
|
|
-
|
|
|
The part of the relay enabling the fuel pumps works -- as you just reported. I think Dan is wondering about the other half, which powers the ECU and the idle motor, AMM, injectors, etc. That test with the light bulb at the AMM checks for that.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
If you think nobody cares if you’re alive, try missing a couple of payments.
|
|
-
|
|
|
I wonder if both relays remain energized during the start sequence?
Dan
|
|
-
|
|
|
Good question. If the ignition switch drops 15 during KP-III, the same contact at fault supplies the coil and ignition controller, so it would not run on starting fluid.
But in Walter's car, I think both relays do remain energized, only when he wires 86/2 to ground.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
How is it one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a campfire?
|
|
-
posted by
someone claiming to be seriousboy
on
Wed Sep 23 07:02 CST 2015 [ RELATED]
|
|
Thank you guys for your responses yesterday - I was following this through my email, and didn't get any notices! I will be printing the diagram(s) you provided and seeing what I can figure out over the next evening (or two). For the record, I do have a pink label ECU and my car is a 90...
Appreciate all your help very much.
Walter
|
|
|
|
|
