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Hi, I was hoping you could offer some advice for a dilemma I've come across; Here are my two main questions (and I'll describe the scenario it relates to below):
1) Can the 'check engine' light be triggered directly by high engine temperature? (ie is there a temperature sensor that would turn on the CEL due to engine overheating?)
2) If the engine is overheating due to lack of coolant, will the Engine Coolant Sensor pick that up, or will it not operate because there is, in fact, no coolant to measure the temperature of?
And here's my situation:
I was checking out an '89 240 DL when the owner mentioned that the temperature gauge seems to be broken- and sure enough, for the first ~10 min of idling the thing doesn't even budge. However, a minute or two before I put it into gear to start the test drive, temp gauge begins climbing; and by the time I'm a quarter mile out it's reached around 3/4 the way up. I turn the car around to head back and the temperature starts to fall a bit, but never below half way. Once we get back I check the coolant expansion tank (probably should've done that first) and lo and behold it's bone-dry. Engine Oil looks good (clear, no signs of sludge) so I head out to buy some coolant, fill up the expansion tank (takes about a gallon), and give it another test drive. This time the gauge responds quickly after ignition, and gently climbs to about a quarter of the way up where it stays for the remaining mile or two of the test drive.
So here's the dilemma- I really like this car (low mileage, single owner, engine seems to run great, practically rust free- really clean...) but I'm worried that the owner has been driving around with no coolant thinking that his temperature gauge is broken.
He says he's only driven it a few times since it was last serviced (6/2013) and the check engine light never came on since then- if that's true, would it imply that the engine temperature never got into the 'red'? (cause otherwise that would've triggered the CEL?) And if there is a temperature sensor that triggers the Check Engine Light, does it rely on coolant temperature and therefore wouldn't work in the situation of over-heating due to lack of coolant(hence my two 'main questions').
I love this car - manual , runs smoothly, looks almost mint condition... but the owner is charging accordingly (six grand), which would be a lot to pay for a warped engine block.
What are your thoughts on the matter? I'd appreciate the advice,
Joshua
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I know I'm way late to this ballgame..
My first thought would be 'why is it a gallon low on coolant'. It doesn't just disappear. And yes a very low coolant level will not show up ' cause the Temp sensor can't read the coolant temp.
Compensation board is a big issues as these cars age. Most of us take them out. See here. http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/Jumping_comp_board.pdf
Maybe a head gasket issue cause the coolant drain. Pull the plugs and look for a very clean looking plug. That's an indication that Coolant is getting into your cylinder.
--
'75 Jeep CJ5 345Hp ChevyPwrd, two motorcycles, '85 Pickup: The '89 Volvo is the newest vehicle I own. it wasn't Volvos safety , it was Longevity that sold me http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html http://cleanflametrap.com/tony/
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$6K being sold by someone who doesn't bother to check the coolant?
A friend's selling his 89 wagon w/ 140K miles and she dreams of getting $2K.
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240 drivers / parts cars - JH, Ohio
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$6K being sold by someone who doesn't bother to check the coolant?
A friend's selling his 89 wagon w/ 140Kmiles and she dreams of getting $2K.
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240 drivers / parts cars - JH, Ohio
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I bought a car that was doing exactly as you wrote -- it would appear to start overheating after just a few minutes test-driving it. And I got it for a song, because the owner believed it was really an overheating condition that he couldn't solve and wanted to get rid of it.
But here's what I did. Knowing about the prevalence of a notoriously bad temperature compensation board, I went home and got my IR thermometer (the things that you aim with a laser beam and measure the temperature of whatever it's pointed at). You can get them for about $20 these days.
Anyway, I came back with the IR thermometer and I took the car out for a test drive again. When it started overheating in the red zone again, I pulled over, opened the hood, and measured the temperature of the thermostat housing's cover -- the best place to measure the temperature of the coolant, just before it goes to the radiator. You know what? It was perfectly normal! Not overheating at all. The TCB was doing its notorious lying.
So I bought the car, very cheap, and when I got home I pulled out the TCB and bypassed it (as I do with all my cars), and I've owned that car (still do) for the past nine years with nary a problem.
Go get an IR thermometer and confirm whether it's really overheating. You don't want to make a "buy" or "don't buy" decision on a possible lie -- get the truth with the appropriate instrument and decide based on that!
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No, it wasn't low on coolant.
But the point I was trying to make was that he shouldn't just look at a notoriously unreliable (because of the TCB) temp gauge and accept its reading at face value, but rather try to determine whether it is really overheating by using a device (IR Thermometer) that wasn't reliant on the TCB but could give an "unbiased" (if you will) measure of the temperature.
In other words, verify, don't trust! Hmmm, didn't I hear that, or something similar, recently from our President's mouth? :-)
There are a number of reasons why the overflow/expansion tank was empty, including that the seller had been trying to fix his supposed overheating by changing the thermostat, changing the coolant, etc., and failed to properly refill the system -- perhaps he failed to compensate for an air bubble in the system.
Best regards,
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Hey, thanks for all the replies- and yeah, I agree that the car is overpriced; though from what I've seen listed online I could envision it might go for around five grand (ie pristine, 5-speed manual, ~100,000 miles...). For the last few years I've owned a beat-up '90 240 dl that I inherited from my brother, who himself inherited it from my dad- the rust was bad enough that I'm always nervous at the prospect of jacking it up to work on it (eg changing out tie rods and ball joints). So the dream is to have a 'fresh start' that I could keep going as long as possible- and this '89 really looked the part, but at the moment I'm thinking it may be too much money for a vehicle with a dubious history...
Brilliant advice about the IR thermometer- if I end up checking out the car again I'll be sure to bring one along with me. (Although I'd be surprised if it wasn't actually overheating- just because of the empty coolant expansion tank, you know? I mean, what are the chances of it being that low on coolant with a high temp reading due to just the TCB...?)
Thanks for the advice- for now, the search continues
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IF you live someplace where a 1990 got that rusty, the 1989 will not be far behind if you drive it in the winter. Even here in Chicagoland, which has to be in the top 5 for premature, salted road rusting most post-galvy 240's still look presentable with only the occasional hole in the rockers from blocked drains.
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1) No
2) Yes because it will still be getting coolant over the sensor and if not it is installed in a giant chunk of metal that is getting pretty darned warm.
That said, this fact that you could add a gallon of coolant means at least two things:
a) The owner is either inattentive or completely ignorant on basic car maintenance.
b) It is loosing coolant somewhere so you have some sort of repair in your near future should you choose to buy it. Most common is one of the water pump seals or the water pump itself but there are much more complex and/or expensive possibilities.
There is more that one red flag in the rest of your post, though.
A 1989 has the "temperature compensating" board in it which unless repaired or bypassed means you cannot rely on what the gauge is telling you. This is an easy fix but another thing you have to take care of.
The temp gauge climbing to only a quarter usually means the thermostat is failed or has been removed...if you could rely on the temperature gauge being accurate. So you need to factor in that $10 part and at least 20 minutes of your time as well.
Finally, I have never heard of B230 motor having sludge but if that oil was unusually clean, this could be a red flag as well. The owner could have done a quicky oil change to to cover up signs of coolant in the oil (which would look like a chocolate milkshake). A more extended test drive would likely reveal this if the oil looked like iced tea (brand new) instead of black coffee (normal after only a few miles dozen miles).
All this said, these things should be bargaining points if you are at all interested in doing your own work. Even a blown head gasket is not very challenging on one of these but that is the second worst possible issue (worst would be leaking heater core).
FYI, you cannot warp a B230 block with any of the forces the car itself can produce. You would really have to try hard to warp the head but then it would DUMP oil into the coolant and coolant into the oil.
There is no 240, especially not a 240 DL, that is actually worth $6K in the US unless that is what you are willing to pay. Certain 1993 wagons might be.
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Agreed with Onkel here as good advice in response to JPierce.
My 1992 240 GL TCM coolant temp gauge nails the red as I put in the key and start up that wee green beastie. A bang or to on the dah top with an open hand, (a slap) can jiggle the TCM to show true for the drive you're on if not failed.
If the TCM is not complete failed, and without coolant to the top of the engine coolant jacket, engine heat in that empty light aluminum alloy cylinder head fill the metal mass, and the coolant temp should show red rather quickly.
If you have a practical mechanic sense, a Volvo 240 redblock I-4 engine that is down a gallon in coolant capacity will radiate a lot more heat from the engine.
At 1 gallon of engine coolant down, and you do not know how long or why this Volvo 240 is in this condition, and while there is a rather large footprint between the iron alloy redblock and the light aluminum alloy cylinder head, you may very well need to at least replace the cylinder head gasket as it will probably fail you at time most inconvenient.
There may be other underlying issues.
So, offer the person far less if he does not sell it soon. Fewer and fewer people want a 22-year old Volvo 240. So, you can wait, if you want.
Again agreed with Onkel. Yet, JPierce, I feel the seller is both lying to you and is also an idiot.
cheers,
dud.
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Wanting that 1992 240 silver wagon with M47 II someplace nearby.
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Buy it, it's a Volvo 240 and they don't make them anymore.
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