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So as promised, here's my first post relating to the brake stage of my recent repair odyssey.
Having replaced the strut housings, the calipers had already been removed and brake lines opened. Rebuilt calipers and new brake hoses were purchased in advance.
So I'm replacing the rubber brake hoses. The passenger side went smooth enough - though I had to use vice grips on the rear piston line fitting as the flare wrench slipped and rounded it off enough that it wasn't holding. That mangled the fitting a bit, but it was in otherwise good condition and seated fine in the new brake hose. Passenger side done.
Went to driver's side and the forward piston line came apart without issue and I installed the new rubber hose. Here's where it gets interesting ...
The rear piston hard line for some reason appeared to be heavily corroded - all the other brake lines were clean of any corrosion and in sound condition. I also noticed that the fittings on the 1 corroded line (to the hose and the octopus) appeared to be smaller. Sure enough, the 11mm flare wrench was too big. This leads me to think that this line was replaced at some point with some generic metal line that rusted. Incidentally, this is on the same side/where the caliper bolt sheared off to start this whole adventure. So I'm inclined to think that perhaps the wrong caliper bolt, and now wrong brake line, may have been installed by the same individual.
Anyway, the corroded line separated from the rubber hose very easily. Almost too easily - which may account for the smaller (wrong?) sized fitting. Though I can't say I ever noticed any leaking there. But here's where the trouble starts.
The line was so corroded - and bear in mind I'm being extremely gentle with it - that merely touching it around the octopus junction to further examine the extent of the corrosion, led to it braking off just ahead of the octopus fitting. This suggests it was very near failure. Anyway, brake fluid started to seep out so I quickly crimped the stub of the line with vice grips. I tried to fit the 11mm flare wrench, again way to big. The 10mm sort of fit but loosely, and fit even less so once the rust scale was removed. A 9mm is too small...
So now I have to replace that line. I've been soaking the fitting in kroil and will continue to do so. Any thoughts on the best way to remove this fitting from the octopus - a fitting that is of unknown elemental composition and size? For now I was just planning on continuing to apply penetrant, perhaps giving it light taps on the side with a hammer and eventually try to (gently) hammer on the tightest fitting socket I can find and try a 1/4" breaker bar - clearance is pretty tight there.
I sure would hate to have to replace the entire octopus - but I guess I won't be surprised if I have to.
Oh, and by the way, I got the rear end up and wheels off in anticipation of the bleeding sequence and to get some kroil on the bleed screws. What a mess back there. I'm just going to go ahead and replace the brakes on all 4 corners. Now that I have the system open I might as well just go for it and get it over with.
With that in mind, does anyone have any pointers on getting the ratty old rusted rear calipers to come off without breaking a caliper bolt there? I know I'm a sucker for punishment, but that might just put me over the edge...
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"For now I was just planning on continuing to apply penetrant, perhaps giving it light taps on the side with a hammer and eventually try to (gently) hammer on the tightest fitting socket I can find and try a 1/4" breaker bar - clearance is pretty tight there. "
If there was one single outstanding important lesson I learned from the past 15 years of Volvo... Impact over brute force. Followed with patience.
Brute force is that breaker bar. You gradually apply the torque and twist the bolt into two pieces. Or your socket doesn't get "hammered on" and you force your next move to be vise grips.
Get a solid wrench on it if possible and deliver the torque sharply with a hammer to break bonds between the threads -- those bonds the penetrant never touched. And remember the brake line nuts will break loose at the threads and remain seized to the line itself. Bleeder valves are hollow and weak. Put your 8mm box wrench on them and tap the end of the wrench with a small hammer. Don't use cheap "HF" line wrenches when the consequences would pay for a decent one.
Heat helps, but in the hydraulics you really have to apply some common sense safety before you get the torch out.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Progression of engineering education: a good planner needs to know at least a little bit about a great variety of topics, and engineers often succeed by specializing, so we planners like to say that over time, planners learn less and less about more and more until eventually they know nothing about everything. Engineers learn more and more about less and less until they eventually know everything about nothing.
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Thanks again everyone.
On the octopus fitting, as I removed more scale the fitting became less compatible with using a wrench. Actually to the point that it was nearly round and a wrench could not be used. I gave it several light taps over a period of time and thankfully I was able to remove it without damage to the female threads and a new line seated fine. I feel like I dodged a bullet there.
Regarding the rear brakes, I am going to post some photos so everyone can see what I am up against. For starters, one of the proportioning valves (driver's side) appears to be missing! And the rest of it is so severely corroded I can't imagine how it could possibly be functioning. The rear rotors are heavily corroded and scaled and I'm not entirely sure they are operational. I totally get the mantra of "if it ain't broke ..." but the brakes on this car have been bad for a long time - I've been in denial about it and distracted with other projects. There have been periods of extended sitting over the last couple years, and a brake job has been long overdue. If I don't do it now, I'll be doing it soon enough. I just want to make sure I don't break another caliper bolt - so I will attempt Art's method of using impact. I believe it was the breaker bar that broke the first one!
For what it's worth I'm using Craftsman flare wrenches. Not USA made, but better than HF? Or not? I don't know?
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"but the brakes on this car have been bad for a long time - I've been in denial about it and distracted with other projects. There have been periods of extended sitting over the last couple years, and a brake job has been long overdue. If I don't do it now, I'll be doing it soon enough."
Yes, the photos you provide confirm that "a brake job has been long overdue". To be brief, all I can say is, "DUDE!".
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.
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Well, at least I'm trying to make it right now. I knew they were bad, but honestly didn't know they were this bad. I would have done this 2 years ago when I rebuilt the rear suspension on this car, but I just didn't have the time then, nor have I since. This current job was started 2 months ago, and I can only work on it late at night or if I take time off work. That's just my current reality. So I don't have endless hours to devote to it unfortunately.
I have "new" proportioning valves, hoses and calipers on the way, and I have the rotors on hand. I'm going to try to save the hard lines, but I may very well have to replace them as well - at least the ones going to the calipers. There's a post here from last year with part numbers to order them, but if they're NLA I have the tools to make new ones. Incidentally, the driver's side hard line to the caliper appears to be heavily corroded and must be steel like that other line in the front. I don't recall that work being done since I've owned the car.
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My question is based on those proportioning valves. In my experience, they don't get that bad in normal usage — even with the salty winter roads here in Central NY. To me they are a typical sign of a >flood car, known in the trade as a "submarine".
Last year I got a 240 that was much like yours, but bailed out when I got to the proportioning valves (after snapping off a rear caliper bolt). I'd say get out before it gets worse, unless the car has a special attachment for you.
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Yes, I have the full maintenance history going back to about 1997. It was dealer serviced until 2005 when I bought it. Unless it took a dip in Lake Ontario, it's never been in a flood - though I suppose it is a remote possibility. I spoke to the original owner when I bought it and everything seemed to check out. I think I'm in this spot due to a combination of my own neglect given major life changes over the last few years and abuse by prior mechanics I/prior owner used before I started learning how to do the work myself.
I do have a lot emotionally invested in the car, and it is a manual late model wagon that are hard to come by. At 310k km, it's still under 200k miles. There "could" be a lot of life left in this car. At this point, if it's suggested I just write it off anyway, what do I have to lose by at least trying to fix it? At least I'm learning much as I go.
How did you break the rear caliper bolt on your car? What can I do to maximize my chances of not doing the same thing?
If I'm successful in removing the calipers, why can't I just make new lines from the junction back, install "new" proportioning valves, and new everything else from the valves back? That assumes I'm unable to remove the forward lines from the proportioning valve. I could always cut that junction before the fitting - as the valves are being replaced anyway - and use vice grips to hold the remaining stub while I remove the lines?
Ultimately, I hope that if nothing else, these threads are providing entertainment for everyone!
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Unless it took a dip in Lake Ontario, it's never been in a flood
• Maybe stored out doors on open ground?
At least I'm learning much as I go.
• Can't argue with that.
How did you break the rear caliper bolt on your car? What can I do to maximize my chances of not doing the same thing?
• Not sure now. I think it was the lower one of the two, hence no straight on access for impact wrench. Think I was hammering on a stubby box end or something like that. Maybe should have tried torch heat, etc. Just decided this codger didn't need an unplanned under-car project.
If I'm successful in removing the calipers, why can't I just make new lines from the junction back,
• Seems like those lines from junction to prop valves should be OK (being non-rusting copper alloy, like all the other metal lines are, or should be. )
--
Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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Sounds to me like you are putting this car right from previous shop abuse. That's never unnecessary fixing. And brakes are important for your confidence. Doing it yourself, you know how it was done. Leave it to someone else and you might wind up with steel lines, missing caliper bolts, and deleted proportioning valves. Money is well spent making the brakes right.
Your octopus... is it really an octopus? 1992 brings ABS to all 240s best I know, unless there is some Canadian anomaly I'm not aware of. The junction should only have six legs, no? At least, no moving parts!
My flare wrenches are Craftsman, and I think maybe predate the move to China, but if I was going to buy a Snap-On, it would be an 11mm. So far I have been very successful with the Craftsman wrenches. Anyhow, they get used to break the nut loose and tighten it finally in the end. The rest of the wrenching, well I grab a 7/16 open end which fits a bit loose and speeds things up for when the threads are free.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
If you're riding' ahead of the herd, take a look back every now and then to make sure it's still there.
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One thing I noticed about the rear caliper bolts is that a 13mm flare wrench fits, but with more play than I'm comfortable with - 12mm won't fit. A 1/2" flare is too small, but a 9/16" is too big. Any advice here? My fear is that I use the 13mm - the closest fitting flare wrench - and still round the bolt head when I hit the wrench with a hammer. I really want/NEED to get this part right. The rest I can deal with easy enough (I hope).
What about using a tight fitting 6 pt socket with breaker bar and using impact on the breaker bar?
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"One thing I noticed about the rear caliper bolts is that a 13mm flare wrench fits,"
I noticed that the late caliper bolts took smaller sockets than the early caliper bolts. Which means they couldn't handle as much torque. I installed the older style when working on my sister's '89-245.
"What about using a tight fitting 6 pt socket with breaker bar and using impact on the breaker bar?"
Yes, 6 point socket with breaker only (you don't want to risk rounding the head). A socket on an extension bar through the extended spring works. Or if it is really bad, try removing the spring (remove upper nut of shock as lower mount can come with its own problems).
I have noticed that the bodies of late 240s are well rust-proofed, so as long as the floor is solid, your efforts should be fruitful. But it is a lot of effort, isn't it? The steep learning curve you're on is not for the faint of heart (or Lucid who may be our oldest bber).
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.
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SUCCESS!
I ended up going with a long off-set box end wrench and a rubber mallet (thanks Art). I have a nice collection of old BONNEY wrenches, and these box ends have the 'loc-rite' 12-pt which grips on the flats of the bolt as opposed to the corners. A 1/2" ended up fitting best. I hit the mallet to tighten the bolt first, and then a whack or two to loosen and it was on its way. This was after several days of Kroil squirts of course, and I made sure to spray some in behind the dust shield to try to reach to end of the bolt. The bolts actually came out not looking that rusty - which should be the case seeing as the calipers were off as recently as 2.5 years ago when I had new emergency brake work done.
This was the driver's side which is the worst of the two, so hopefully the other side will go smoothly as well. Then it's on to replacing the hoses and at least one brake line and those valves of course.
I wonder if I should do the rear wheel bearings while I'm in there ... ;)
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"I wonder if I should do the rear wheel bearings while I'm in there ... ;)"
- If it ain't broke, don't fix it... :)
I've been reading the BB for 15 years and I rarely, if ever, have seen a post stating that their rear wheel bearings went bad. The entire rear end of a 240 is notoriously tough. Oops, except for the rear suspension bushings.
--
Current - 95 855 GLT Sportwagon 255k, Formerly - 90 244 DL 300k
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Good to know. I was half joking, because this whole ordeal started with a front brake pad replacement ...
But I do notice some noise when I rotate the rear hubs. I don't know what I'm listening for though.
I think for now I'll just finish this brake job and get the car back on the road. I can worry about other rear end work and further rust removal/repair later in the summer.
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Second SUCCESS!
Got the passenger caliper off just as easily as the other side. The "metal on metal" noise I had been hearing from the driver's side was just the corroded passenger rotor turning through the pads. Duh!
But, when I took the passenger rotor off, I still hear noise when I turn the hub. It sounds like a muted click, click, click. Would that just be the differential gears merging? Or should the rear hubs spin completely silently like the front hubs?
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Right Art. I'll check that, hopefully tonight. I have the disc off on the driver's but hadn't started on the passenger side yet. I have the brake released, and cables slackened by the bolt under the center console. But I'll definitely check the other side.
Thanks for your suggestion with the rubber mallet. Worked very well. This will be my new method going forward for sure.
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"caliper bolts is that a 13mm flare wrench "
You don't use flare wrenches on caliper bolts, just brake lines!
Dan
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Thanks for the vote of confidence Art. As with others here, trial and error has on occasion resulted in more error for me than necessary. But I'm pretty proud of the fact that I've managed to get through most things unscathed in the end - big knock on wood here - Still a ways to go, but I'll keep at it and take the suggested methods here to heart.
Yes, that's right Art. You must have read my prior post a while back about this car being of Canadian origin. 1992 models in Canada - at least this one - did not come with ABS standard. It's a M47 and otherwise was bone stock before I added things like heated mirrors and such.
It would be interesting to know why that was the case, given the prevalence for slipperier roads there over longer winters and icy road conditions and rural unpaved roads being widespread. I'd love to see the production literature on this point if it exists somewhere.
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Don't you have a portable sand blaster. I would bead blast all that rusty stuff THEN spray it with PB and work on it.
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This looks like the car has spent some time under or at least in salt water. This is bad everything associated with the rear brakes needs to be replaced. Does the front look this bad?
Dan
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No, the fronts were not that bad, but still needed replacing. I had my emergency brake system (shoes/cables) replaced about 2 years ago and the mechanic advised me to leave the rear brakes alone if they were working, which they appeared to be at the time. His thinking was that opening things up would just cause more problems. I thanked him at the time for trying to save me money, which he did, but here we are now.
It didn't spend time in salt water per se, but spent 14 years in Eastern Ontario Canada, where the roads in winter can have several inches of salty slushy mix that literally gets splashed up into the undercarriage.
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I don't think that was good advice from safety and your point of view, it just kept him from replacing everything and dealing with all the rusted together parts.
Dan
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I was going to say untouched and un serviced since it left the factory until I saw the copper pipe. Looks like a case of replace everything. Exchange callipers, new discs etc, I've never seen anything that bad. However, being in the UK, that would have had the MOT tester refusing to test it due to it being unsafe, years before they got to that state.
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To add one suggestion to Art's post -- it helps get the bleeder screws loose by giving them a "tap" straight on. -- Dave
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"I know I'm a sucker for punishment, but that might just put me over the edge..."
There's a motto that I feel you need to take to heart - If it ain't broke don't fix it.
"This leads me to think that this line was replaced at some point with some generic metal line that rusted."
Yes. Volvo brake lines are cupro-nickle which don't rust. The replacement was likely steel. Possibly a standard rather than metric wrench would fit. Vise grips may be the best option as you'll be replacing it anyway.
"does anyone have any pointers on getting the ratty old rusted rear calipers to come off without breaking a caliper bolt there?"
Kroil them but you don't know till you try. During the process, while you're swearing, think "he told me so".
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.
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If you haven't already lost it all (fluid) - top up the reservoir all the way (as little air space at the top as possible), screw the cap on and put a little piece of tape over the vent hold in the center of the reservoir cap. This will keep air from entering the reservoir -- which will keep the fluid from leaking out below. Not having to bench bleed the master cylinder (if fluid drains out the bottom of the system) will save you COUNTLESS headaches when time comes to refill all your new components with fluid. If you don't have one, invest in a Motive pressure bleeder -- makes things MUCH easier.
--
82 242 5.0L; '10 Cayman S; '15 Honda Fit
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