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Hi all,
Sorry about the lack of Volvo content, but since a couple of my Volvos run SUs I thought someone here might know the answer to what seems a simple question.
The non-Volvo car is a classic (read "old") rally car with triple HS6 SUs feeding a 3300cc 6 cylinder motor. Under some conditions (eg hard cornering on long sweepers) it feels like it leans out a lot. I've confirmed on the 'net that this is a problem because of the remote float bowls.
I've been offered a set of 1 3/4" HIFs which supposedly don't have the same problem because of the integral bowls. I've never had a car with HIFs and don't know much about them.
At last the question: can I use my HS needles or do I need to go through the whole dyno/tuning process again?
Regards
JohnH
Sydney, Australia
10 Volvos, but a few other marques as well...
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Man.. I know you read it on the net, which makes it true of course...
But I sure don't like it. I've never heard of a problem with the remote floats such as you describe... maybe it is true. But damn.. there've been a lot of successful racers going back to the '30s or earlier, with remote float SU's of various types... I have never, ever heard of that being a problem. I know.. many racers ran Webers, but... there were plenty of old Jaguars and MGs and Triumphs.. very fast cars, running remote float SUs
Fuel in the tank sloshing away from the pickup tube? Seems more likely to me...
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-Matt I ♥ my ♂
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I know there were lots of good cars with remote floats that went fast, stopped fast and could corner pretty well too. I don't know if they had any lean-out problems or not. And if you can't trust www... who can you trust???
My off road/track career (such that it is!) has been pretty much confined to webers or fi, so I don't really have any first hand experience with SUs under stress. Other than a Mini Cooper S many years ago that was so noisy that you wouldn't know if the engine had momentary lean-outs or not.
Anyway, the HIFs are coming at the right price, my HS6s are a bit of a mixed bag so I thought I'd give the HIFs ago. If there are problems, I can always swap them back. Like I've got all the time in the world to do that sort of things....
Regards
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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The factory GTR XU-1 used 3 x 175 Strombergs, even for Bathurst, I don't know if they are better with regard to your problem. With 3 carbs, matching up the float heights probably more critical. Any that are set a bit low might cause it to lean out on that carb. Are you feeding the floats from a common fuel rail or with a pipe from, say, front, middle, back carb? If the latter, the back carb might struggle sometimes to get enough fuel. Having said that, each float/carb is independant so they will rarely want fuel supply to the float at the same time.
Your fuel pump might be marginal for long periods of WOT, An unbaffled tank with only a couple of gallons in won't help either.
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Hi,
I don't really know if I do have a problem. Just that the HIFs came along at the right price, and the advice I got was that they were an improvement and that leaning was a known (albeit perhaps insignificant) problem with HSs.
I'm feeding from a common block with individual 1/4" fuel lines to each carb. It's driven by a Carter Green pump (I think they are rated 140gph) down a 3/8" pipe to the common block, so fuel delivery shouldn't be an issue. Unless, as you say, the tank is a bit empty. It is a problem with Toranas that they have a fairly flat, shallow tank so keeping it topped up is a really good idea.
I pulled a needle from one of the HIFs today. It is an SM. I need to do a bit of research to see if I should start with those or try another needle.
A week or so ago, I removed a tank from a 1974 144 parts car after a bit of measuring. It fits in the Torana boot just about over the axle hump. Filling might be a bit of an issue, but not insoluble. This sounds a worthwhile mod when I get everything else fixed up.
Regards
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Is this tank out of a 144 with EFI as I understand they were baffled or had some way of ensuring the fuel stays around the outlet? The ordinary ones do not have this.
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No, it's out of a carbed model. When I get back to the car (not until March because I'm going o/s on Friday) I'll pull the gauge sender and have a look inside.
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Hi,
I don't really know if I do have a problem. Just that the HIFs came along at the right price, and the advice I got was that they were an improvement and that leaning was a known (albeit perhaps insignificant) problem with HSs.
I'm feeding from a common block with individual 1/4" fuel lines to each carb. It's driven by a Carter Green pump (I think they are rated 140gph) down a 3/8" pipe to the common block, so fuel delivery shouldn't be an issue. Unless, as you say, the tank is a bit empty. It is a problem with Toranas that they have a fairly flat, shallow tank so keeping it topped up is a really good idea.
I pulled a needle from one of the HIFs today. It is an SM. I need to do a bit of research to see if I should start with those or try another needle.
A week or so ago, I removed a tank from a 1974 144 parts car after a bit of measuring. It fits in the Torana boot just about over the axle hump. Filling might be a bit of an issue, but not insoluble. This sounds a worthwhile mod when I get everything else fixed up.
Regards
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Unless the HS's you have now are later production (1969 or so) they'll have fixed needles. The HIF series used spring-loaded needles. However Volvo HIF6 used BAL or BBB needles, and if that's what you have, they'll run that six cylinder just fine, at least for tuning purposes.
HS aren't really that sensitive to cornering, although accel and decel will change the mixture a bit. HIF's are superior to them though.
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Hi Rhys,
I just pulled a needle from the HIF and as far as I could tell it isn't spring loaded. It comes out of what seems a fixed mount by loosening a screw in the side. It's marked SM if that helps.
I couldn't find any markings on the carbs that seemed to mean anything to me, other than that they were SUs. Are there normally identifying marks?
Regards
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Hi John,
I'd need to see a photo of them.
The SM is a fine needle for normal driving, and was never used in the HIF, so someone swapped an HS piston in there - hopefully with an adjustable jet bearing as well. It's possible the needle is centered with the HIF fixed jet bearing too.
None of the carbs are marked "HIF" or "HS" - it's just the shape that tells that.
Rhys
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Hi Rhys,
Now that's just bizarre. I'll try and make time to remove the other pistons and see if they are the same. If they are HS pistons - and I can't get HIF pistons - will that cause a problem? Is the spring loaded needle critical or can I just use them as they are? I'm a bit in the dark here - as you might have gathered.
I'll be a bit tight for time tomorrow because I'm heading off to your part of the world (well, Colorado) for a month's skiing, so the SU overhaul will have to wait until I'm back. Meantime, all the info I can gather is most useful.
Regards
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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There is no technical reason to prevent an HIF from being converted to a fixed needle, and as the jet orifice is the same, it will work perfectly well. You just need a good selection of parts is all. Other than the bore that accepts the needle, the pistons are the same. SU was far better at machining than most give them credit for - pistons and chambers are always interchangeable.
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Hi Rhys (again),
Sorry for all the questions... I found (on the net) an old SU booklet (headed AUC9939A (AKD7902)if that's relevant) which showed a crankcase ventilation tube neat the base of the bell on the RHS looking at the engine. In that position mine have a big (roughly 3/8" dia) screw which appears to have some bleed function. What's that for?
Also mine don't have piston lifting pins. Were they deleted later on? I guess I just use a screwdriver flat to lift them.
What's your view on ram tubes. Weber people generally swear by them, but SUs seems strangely silent on the subject.
Regards
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Hi Rhys,
I pulled all 3 domes. All 3 needles are SM (good!) and all are fixed. 2 are set in a brass bush which is set in an alloy bush inside the piston. The third has no brass bush but is set straight into alloy, which is the same od as the other 2, but has not been reamed out to accept the smaller brass bush. Why, I know not. When I put the needles back, do the shoulders sit flush with the base of the piston?
Is there any good reason to do anything to make all three the same, or convert all 3 back to spring loaded?
Shaft play in 2 of the three is undetectable, in the third I can feel a little movement but it's almost invisible to the eye. Is that enough (I know that you'd really need to see it yourself) to replace the bush?
From here, it looks that puting a full kit through them is probably enough. And a gentle media blast to pretty them up. Anything else I should do? Anything to look out for?
Regards
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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That's all good news John. It sounds like someone familiar with machining made and installed the bushings to convert the pistons to take the fixed needles. If they center in the jet orifice, and it sounds like they do, all is well. If you have a hand lens, look closely at the sides of the needles. If there is a longitundinal stripe, it's a rub mark caused by the jet orifice. Sounds to me like it's ok though.
The shoulder is to be place flush with the bottom of the piston. If you get close, great. Don't fuss too much, because you'll adjust the jet height when tuning anyways, and that will compensate.
The throttle shaft wear is fine - a little bit is no problem and the HIF have seals on the shaft too.
You're good to go!
Rhys
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Hi Rhys (again),
Sorry for all the questions... I found (on the net) an old SU booklet (headed AUC9939A (AKD7902)if that's relevant) which showed a crankcase ventilation tube neat the base of the bell on the RHS looking at the engine. In that position mine have a big (roughly 3/8" dia) screw which appears to have some bleed function. What's that for?
Also mine don't have piston lifting pins. Were they deleted later on? I guess I just use a screwdriver flat to lift them.
What's your view on ram tubes. Weber people generally swear by them, but SUs seems strangely silent on the subject.
Regards
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Hmmmmm.....some HIF's had large brass tubes used for the evaporative emission connections.....the large screw (slotted?) with a big spring under it....and no lifting pin....sounds like a Stromberg!
If you could post a photo or two that would be great.
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No spring underneath it. Definitely has SU cast in the body and various SU type letters/numbers elsewhere.
I'm off to the airport in 10 mins and won't be back in Sydney until March so no time for photos now. I'll send you some when I get back.
Regards
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Big grin here but but you could bring the carbs over with you and let Rhys sort them out and then take them home again...............
Workload permitting of course.
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Big grin! I love it! It's not the silliest idea in the world, but by the time I pack them up and shipped them to him, and got them back to Breckenridge before I leave, put up with my beloved's comments about excess baggage (I've already ordered a pair of harness belts to pick up at Breck), I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble!
Rhys: if there is a way it makes some sense, let me know! And I fly out in about 18 hours, so need to know before then! We're flying into Las Vegas and then driving to Breckenridge if that helps.
Regards
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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If you start with HIF6 carbs off a Volvo B20 I would say start with the needles that are in it and see what happens.
As a matter of curiosity, what kinda engine is this?
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George Downs, Bartlesville, Heart of the USA!
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Hi George,
Thanks for the answer - I wasn't even sure if the needles would fit. My carbed Volvos are HS's or, more often, Strombergs, so HIFs are a bit of a mystery.
The engine is a pushrod, cast iron straight 6 from our GM subsidiary, Holden. I'm not certain of the history but I think the engine design started life in the early 1960's as a 149ci. It went through various stages as a 179, 186 and finally the 202 (3300cc) that I have. Mine is bored out a little (to about 208ci, I believe), with a cam designed for torque - we're rebuilding the car for forest rallies - and currrently runs three very non-original HS6's. Originally, I believe, it would have a 2barrel Stromberg downdraft. Power is out to the ground through a 5.1 LSD, so it's real quick off the mark, but top speed is somewhat constrained.
The car is called a Torana, a light 4 door saloon from 1975. Neally not very suitable for forest rallies, but the price was right! And we're having fun with it.
I was going to try rallying a Volvo - I've got a 144 that competed in a Shield of Africa Rally in 1998 - but the body is pretty tired and it would need a huge amount of work. I'm still thinking of rebodying it into a 142...
Regards
John
PS some other Australian may well chime in with a more accurate history of Holden engines
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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You'll have a lot more fun with 144 in the dirt than is possible from the torona with the horrible old red motor & very sad rear suspension.
about 208ci
Throw that one & start again. Boring a 186 or 202 to +.060" just makes them fumey. 030" max.
SU's: There was kits to covert the piston from floating to fixed needle & vice versa, I convert to fixed & if you want to use a triple letter needle, you just knock off the hat & polish the knurl.
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Three 164's, Two 144's, One 142 & a partridge in a pear tree.
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Hi Paul,
Why does boring a 202 make it fumey? Fumey where? Is fumey bad?
I find that the front suspension is more limiting than the rear. Really short travel. I haven't seemed to have had a lot of trouble getting power to the ground most of the time.
I went with the Torana because a) it was cheap and b) parts are cheap and easy and c) pretty good power to weight ratio without much work.
Regards
John
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Why does boring a 202 make it fumey? Fumey where? Is fumey bad?
80% of them are a tad too thin to go to .060" over & most people who mod Holdens don't spend money on sonic testing the bores. Fumey = Blowby, you may not have any at idle, but under load thin bores balloon a little & then blowby happens & power drops compared to one that is .030" over.
I went with the Torana because a) it was cheap
They are cheap for a reason. Holden have always been scabby where metal is concerned, if you do have an engine that makes any torque you will spit out an axle with monotonous regularity. At Least Ford & Valiants has half decent diffs & gearboxes.
Here's something you should have a good look at. Open the bonnet on your Torana & look at how many cylinders are in front of the front wheels, now do the same to a 140. Weight in front of the front wheels is a big killer of RWD cars.
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Three 164's, Two 144's, One 142 & a partridge in a pear tree.
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The front weight is indeed a problem, but the drivetrain is at least solid. Celica 5speed, big prop shaft and a pintara rear end with c'dore 28spline LSD.
I know the car isn't ideal, but cheap was the real motive. I figured I didn't want to spend too much money until I was confident that my codriver and I would enjoy the game enough to justify the extra dollars.
I've got 144s and a 142 that would be good to develop - or even a 122 if I wanted to risk killing it - but if all goes to plan, I think something Japanese is more likely to be the outcome.
Regards
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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Ahh, so it was cheap to buy, not cheap to make go. Celica 5speed, big prop shaft and a pintara rear end with c'dore 28spline LSD aren't exactly free items!
I think something Japanese is more likely to be the outcome.
As in a 4wd turbo?
I wouldn't do that to a 120, they are just too valuable with no real advantage on dirt. My first Volvo was a 142, but after driving 164's, I felt a lot happier having the 4 door B pillar right beside me where the 142 just has the door + the 144 looks even slower than a 142, so that's the way I went.
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Three 164's, Two 144's, One 142 & a partridge in a pear tree.
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Hi,
The Celica box etc etc were already in it, so my spend has been pretty small - tidying up electrics, new fuel pump and plumbing, putting bigger plates where the cage bolts in, making seat mounts to fit different seats etc.
I think 4wd turbo might be more than I have the skill to play with. Also I'm a classic kind of person. Plus in NSW we can put anything over 30yo on club plates which makes significantly cheaper rego, which has obvious benefits. For a possible future car I'm thinking more in the Datsun 1600/180B/Stanza way. My co-driver is a huge Escort fan so something there is a possibility. Meantime we'll play with the Torrie and see how it all goes.
I'm currently in the US and won't get home until mid March, so it's all a bit frustrating planning but not doing.
John
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JohnH, Sydney, Australia
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I'm thinking more in the Datsun 1600/180B/Stanza way. My co-driver is a huge Escort fan
Bog stock, a 144S is faster than either of those cars in a straight line & on dirt. A 144 stops a hell of a lot better too. The Swedes built great dirt cars in those days because Sweden's roads are as bad as ours.
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Three 164's, Two 144's, One 142 & a partridge in a pear tree.
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