|
|
|
I seem to be having bad luck with my latest repair and the parts I've ordered from FcP Groton
I've had my sedan garaged for many months. I am now trying to do a bunch of remedial maintenance on it, to make it: a) inspectable and b) fully repaired. It needs new brakes and pads; timing belt,front seals, and water pump; tranny mount; fuel filter; and exhaust replacement from the manifold back.
I put together a big order from FCP. When it arrived everything was checked off and initialled by the "picker" but a new TB tensioner was missing. I called FCP. They sent me another one, no questions asked. When I finally got around to the brake work last week. I started with the rear brakes first---no problems. When I got to the front brakes, I realized that FCP had sent me a pair of FWD rear rotors instead of the vented front rotors I had ordered. The part number on the boxes did not match what was circled and initialed by the "picker" Another call to FCP, and they sent out the correct rotors that day. Again, no questions asked. I should have them by tomorrow afternoon.
While waiting for the brakes, I've started with the badly needed exhaust work. I had already bought a stock exhaust kit a few months ago from my local dealer (at a significant discount). My big FCP order included a Bosal header pipe and Bosal cat. I spent today cutting off the old exhaust. The bolts came off pretty easily. I fit up the new exhaust, starting with the header pipe and working my way back. I then began to go over everything for fit adjustment and tightening. That's where my real trouble started.
The Volvo stuff fits as expected, including the over-axle pipe rubbing on the triangular "brace." That issue has been discussed thoroughly here. I am sure I can make some easy mods to fix things.
The Bosal, stuff on the other hand, is problematic. First, the cat seems to be sitting to high. The oxygen sensor is about 1/8' away from the floor pan. The old one didn't seem to be so close as I remember it. I'm worried it hitting or rubbing there. Second, the pipe attached to the cat and leading to the resonator looks like it is bent to follow the general contours of the floor pan. It's not lining up right for me. The last bend in the pipe doesn't match the floor. It sits too far towards the engine and brings the pipe very close to contacting the floor. Where the pipe is necked down to fit into the resonator seems to be an inch or two further away from the end of the resonator pipe than it should be. I tried to adjust as much of the misfit out as I could, but I am worried that it is going to rattle or radiate/conduct too much heast to the floor. The whole cat and its pipe seem to sit much much farther towards the engine than they should be.
I wonder whether my header pipe is bent at the wrong angle (causing the cat to sit to high) and is also too short (causing the cat to sit too far forward). I know that others have had fit problems with sub-standard Bosal stuff.
I need to get this car on the road ASAP. Should I roll the dice and exchange it for another one from FCP while my car sits on ramps and jack stands for another week? Like I said, the FCP folks have been pretty cool about all the anomalies with my order so far. Or should I have the header pipe modified, by having the single pipe lengthened and having it's angle dropped a little, while going through the additional hassle and expense of trying to find a competent welder who isn't going to do something stupid like burn through my pipe or misalign the fixed flange in the process. (I used to weld for a living, but I don't currently have access to a machine or I'd do it myself.)
I'm also considering trying to bend the header pipe down using the old 4x4" and floor jack system. I'd leave the length alone and just have to hope that the forward-sitting cat wouldn't pull the mufflers and other pipes too far out of alignment like it has for some others.
Any thoughts?
|
|
-
|
|
|
I didn't want to wait for replacement parts from FCP or TASCA, nor did I want to spend any more money on the exhaust, so I decided to modify what I had. The old cat-to-resonator pipe was solid, so I reused it to splice in a replacement section around the problem.
I spent a lot of time measuring things and trying to visualize what would go where before I made any cuts. I had to use a Sawzall for the cuts, which wasn't very precise. I had to retrim the ends of the old section, adding a slight miters to close up the gaps between the sections as best as I could. I still ended up having to bridge 1/8" gaps with my weld in a few places. I'm really glad I had the option to use hard wire for the job. The welds aren't my prettiest, but they should hold and shouldn't leak. I was working on the floor of my garage with borrowed equipment. The old pipe seemed to be a slightly heavier gauge than the new, so I hope it will last as long.
I made final adjustments, tightened everything down, and am glad to report a good fit finally. The intermediate pipe is close to but doesn't contact "the fin." I went for a test drive, throwing it into curves, running over speed bumps and down cobblestone streets. It's quiet, with one exception: I occasionally get a very slight knock on the driver's side. The tailpipe is making slight contact with the tow bar that's on the car. I had been planning to remove the tow bar anyway. I'll never used it, and it's only hurting my gas mileage. Besides, I removed the wiring a couple of years ago because it was installed poorly by a PO and was causing problems with my tail lights. Other than that, everything seems to be resolved now.
One last question: Should the tailpipe be level with the car or slightly declined? Would it make a substantial difference in preventing corrosion?
Thanks to everyone for all your input and clarification. I salute you!
|
|
-
|
|
|
One final footnote to this saga:
I had just finished up the job, had put away my tools, and double-checked to make sure there was nothing under the vehicle. I lowered the front end. I got in, started the car, and everything sounded great. I started to drive down the ramps that were under the rear tires and felt resistance. I thought I was just the ridge on the ramps. I gave it a little more gas and BAM! The rear right side of the car dropped straight to the floor! "WTF!" I thought. I turned the car off and got out to see what had happened, expecting something ugly. I went around to the passenger side. The ramp had shot out from under the rear tire. I thought to myself, "How the hell did that happen?" Then I saw what the problem was.
If you are ever using ramps under the rear wheels, in a small garage with a bad floor that is oily, don't let your front wheels end up in a situation like this:
The cracked floor was acting like a block against the front wheels. That was enough resistance for the ramp to become a projectile under the rear tire. It must have shot back three feet! The other ramp had stayed put. I didn't think that I'd be able to get a jack where I needed to to pull the remaining ramp out. So like a fool, I decided to just drive the car down off the remaining ramp. I got another scare when I heard a second BAM! as that ramp also shot out the back and the left side also dropped straight to the floor.
I got out and checked again. The same thing had happened on the left side, and there was no apparent damage. At least all four wheels were firmly planted on terra firma again after a being up in the air for a week. I was starting to get light headed from all the exhaust accumulating in the garage. I finally managed to pull the car out into the alley and with that, the job was done.
Like I said earlier, this job was nothing but bad luck.
|
|
-
|
|
Very interesting. Great safety tip!
Thanks!
-Ryan
--
Athens, Ohio
1987 245 DL 314k, Dog-mobile
1990 245 DL 134k M47, E-codes, GT Sway Bars, GT Braces, Draco Wheels
1991 745 GL 300k, Regina, 23/21mm Turbo Sway Bars
|
|
-
|
|
|
I never used to do exhaust work, but over time I accumulated the tools I find necessary to reluctantly do all my exhaust work now.
I find an air chisel necessary if I need to remove one component and replace it with new. I have a very inexpensive one but it gets the job done.
The other necessary tool is my floor jack. I usually find it necessary to coax, tweak, and man handle new systems and components into place. I do what you propose to do: Use blocking against the body pan to stabilize one part of the system while I use the floor jack to move another portion to the position I want it to occupy.
Once it is where I want it I snug up the clamps and install the hangers.
Good luck.
Randy
|
|
-
|
|
|
A key thing to point out is that an aftermarket part is an aftermarket part. FCP doesn't make this stuff... IPD and eEuropparts sell much the same stuff, and there's a reason an aftermarket down pipe costs a small fraction vs. a new one from Volvo.
Are the cat and down pipe equipped with the "spin flange"? I wonder if those parts have a crummy fit compared to the aftermarket "fixed flange" equivalents, which fit pretty well.
-Ryan
--
Athens, Ohio
1987 245 DL 314k, Dog-mobile
1990 245 DL 134k M47, E-codes, GT Sway Bars, GT Braces, Draco Wheels
1991 745 GL 300k, Regina, 23/21mm Turbo Sway Bars
|
|
-
|
|
|
The Bosal parts that I am contending with are fixed flange. I went ahead with Bosal because it seemed like the consensus here was that the Bosal parts generally fit OK, except for the occasional bad, "made on a Monday" part. I laid the old and new header pipes beside each other before I installed anything. They looked like a pretty good match in terms of length and angle. Now that I've looked at things again in daylight, I think that the main problem is with the geometry of the cat-to-resonator pipe.
I understand that FCP is just a discount vendor. I've used them lots before without issue. I also understand that, when it comes to OEM vs. aftermarket parts, there can be a substantial trade-off between quality and price. No surprise there. I'm just trying to figure out how I can work with what I've got (and can afford at the moment).
|
|
-
|
|
|
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I, too, frequently have problems with FCP, especially when ordering online. The OEM exhaust kit is more trouble than it's worth. And I have the same problem with the aftermarket cat I ordered; the O2 sensor was impossible to install because it is so close to the floor. My O2 sensor socket doesn't fit in the space, I'm sure it'll be fun when I have to replace it. I think when that time comes, I'm going to cut the exhaust off and have one that actually fits made from scratch.
Sorry to hear about all the problems. I just went through the same stuff, I feel your pain.
|
|
-
|
|
...I don't like to "pile on" but also had a recent FCP order screw-up when overnight ordering an OEM Regina fuel pump on a Friday, to be sent to my son. The pump he got Saturday was a Scan-Tech. I didn't have time to deal with FCP then, as son's car was stranded in Queens NY, about 250 miles from me (95 miles from him) and Sunday was fix day. Faced with a time crunch, we fixed his 940 with a 152K pump I'd saved from a preemptive replacement on my '93 940, and got the car back to his place by early evening.
On Monday I called FCP, asking for a VISA Credit and a UPS pickup slip to return the S-T pump. This was agreed to, but later that day the rep called back to say that Nick was sending me a new OE pump. I accepted that as an intended courtesy, although I really wanted the refund to spend on an OE pump from a known source: Beechmont Motors in Ohio. I sent the S-T pump back to FCP on my own dime.
I expected the OE "peace pump" to come to me, but in another screw-up it went to my son as did the over-nighted S-T pump. My location, my son's (145 miles from me), and the stranded car (95 miles from him) were all explained on Friday as well as on Monday, yet the new pump went to my son instead of to me.
Son says this new pump also came in a plastic bag, and the only thing defining it as "OE" is that it doesn't have Scan-Tech etched on it. To me, "OE" means a blue Volvo box like the pump I bought from Beechmont 3 years ago. I'm sure Nick thinks he did me a favor. I'm a bit less than satisfied but not enough to drag it out any further.
End of rant.
--
Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
|
|
-
|
|
|
I recently purchased a complete exhaust system from FCP not includng the header pipe. Mine must be different as it uses a rotating not fixed flange. Much easier to line up and I noticed the same issue with the O2 sensor, but I rotated it a little down and out of the way of the floor. Length was perfect and surprising to me after 6-8 weeks of NE weather still no rust on the tailpipe. I'd research the selection and re-order.
|
|
-
|
|
Hi there,
You've got company, if misery desires it. It is hard for me to advise you, because your time pressure complicates things. I worked it from the time side:
Bosal Exhaust causes knocking noise on under carriage.
You've found one of the least expensive places to buy parts. FCP does seem to pull some boners picking and packing, but I thought they had gotten much better with those in the last three years. Maybe spring fever, or vacations...
But the Bosal problems are not anything FCP can fix, I suspect, other than by shipping another. I doubt FCP has the ability to see the defects we've all experienced, in the time they have to spend with each part. That "incoming inspection" function, and complicated inventory, is what I guess makes Genuine Volvo cost us what it does. They can't have their expensive dealer techs trial fit pipes on customer cars.
Speaking of Genuine Volvo, here's a thread regarding the over-axle Volvo cat-back.
Over-axle exhaust
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
A gossip is someone with a great sense of rumor.
|
|
-
|
|
|
I had a chance to look at things again in daylight and take a few pictures.
It seems like there is plenty of clearance around the header pipe itself. The exhaust manifold flange and support bolt all lined up perfectly.
The cat may or may not be sitting too high. The O2 sensor is really tight in there. Should I be concerned with putting undue strain on the wires or damaging the sensor itself, if I hit some rough pavement, potholes, etc.?
My major concern is with the cat-to-resonator pipe touching the floor. It looks like, even if I got another header pipe that had added length (say at most an inch), the cat pipe would still be close enough to knock. It seems like the bends in that pipe don't follow the contour of the floor very well to begin with. Even if another header pipe was longer in its vertical section, lowering the cat away from the floor, the cat-pipe would still have to rise back up close to where it sits now, in order to meet the new OEM resonator where it hangs now (from brand new hangers).
I haven't fired up the car yet. I still don't know whether I should call FCP and have them replace the header pipe, the cat, or both; or whether I should try to modify what I have in some way. In other threads, some have mentioned cutting, bending, floor pan denting, and spring insertion among other things. But it is unclear whether they were addressing the same exact issues I have.
I'm going to call FCP after this post and see what they have to say, not that I expect too much.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Wow, you've made your situation seem very clear. I wish I had one of the 91's here at home to compare, but what I can see, and what I remember, I'd wonder if the downpipe's rear flange was rotated a bit too far clockwise before it was welded. Or maybe it is the cat.
I vaguely remember getting a cat that was maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inches too short, resulting in a similar, but not quite as pronounced, lack of insertion at the front muffler. Yours looks so far out the slots would be exposed. I can measure a spare (Starla) cat pipe if it would help, but the other stuff is all memory right now, having two turbos, a 79 and an 89 at home (sensor in downpipe).
What about a spin flange pipe? I've only used one on a 240, but I liked it better.
To answer your questions, the clearances you have from sensor backward are unacceptable, in my opinion. Even new, tight resonator hangers don't explain that close fit.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
If life gives you llamas, make llamanade.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Art,
If you could measure that Starla pipe, that would be great. I appreciate all the information I can get.
Thanks.
Zeke
|
|
-
|
|
|
Maybe I should try pairing up a genuine Volvo downpipe with the Bosal cat and see what happens. The Volvo downpipe costs $181.45, which is almost twice what I paid for the Bosal but would be worth it just to remedy the situation. The cat, on the other hand, costs $352.68. So that's a no-go for me.
I talked to a very helpful parts guy at the closest Volvo dealership. They don't have a fixed-flange downpipe in stock, but are going to order one for me. I should hopefully have it in hand by Thursday. I hope it's worth the additional money and the 40-mile round trip.
|
|
-
|
|
|
Hi Zeke,
My spare Starla cat pipe is 25-3/8 inches if I max out any measurement I can take by hooking a tape pulled through it, on the outlet end, and reading it at the flange. It is Starla number 782-927 or Volvo # 1306836 which I notice FCP shows an MSRP of $26.37 and will generously let me have it for $28.00. :)
Had to go back to 83 to even find it shown.
Anyhow, none of the 10 240s I've owned had spin flange downpipes, but they seem to be listed on 91- for some applications. I can't figure why one would not be backward compatible, as long as the cat had the large inlet end and the donut gasket mates. The one I used went in an 89 sedan, but not the 89 wagon I have at home. My conclusion was its use was an improvement, not a distinction made necessary by other changes.
But that price on the real downpipe Lucid noted may mean I never again pursue A&B, Starla, Bosal headpipes again. I only hope Volvo is checking these things when they buy them.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Everyone seems normal until you get to know them.
|
|
-
|
|
|
"The Volvo downpipe costs $181.45,..."
That's the full msrp. Tasca Volvo in Seekonk Mass discounts 35% to $116.85
3514977 EXHAUST PIPE $181.45 $116.85 ["internet price" call 1-800-784-5149]
Search By Factory Part Number Here
EDIT:
"The cat, on the other hand, costs $352.68"
Volvo also sells lower priced cats. '85-90 240 PN is 8551607-8.
MSRP is $295.77, $221.09 at Tasca
--
Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
|
|
-
|
|
|
I just got off the phone with a tech at FCP. He suggested that I loosen everything up, including the downpipe and cat bolts, and retighten everything to see if I could gain any additional clearance. I told him I doubt that would do much at the front end because all the flange-to-flange connections are fixed, along with the downpipe to bracket connection.
I suggested replacement parts. He told me it was very rare for Bosal parts not to fit right. He said, if anything, the problem is probably with the cat-to-resonator pipe. I tend to agree. He said it would not be a problem for FCP to replace it. I'm tempted to have them send me replacements for both the cat and downpipe and then to try different combinations of things until I find what works best, then return the rest.
On the other hand, I really don't want to have the car up on jack stands for another week while I wait for parts. Not being able to drive the car is killing me. I have an old, uninspected beater 245 that I can drive around town when necessary, but I have to take a long trip out of town next week and was hoping to have all the repairs on my sedan done by then.
|
|
-
|
|
|
I have installed 2 IPD sport exhaust kits on 2 different 240 They do cost more than the other crap your buying. But the fitment is never and issue,install a breeze. Never worry about speed bumps To me its worth the extra money up front for the yrs of trouble free use it provides along with increase in power. Have used The bosal headpipe,cheap compared to Volvo in quality. Have used the cat also with no problems too.
Good luck ,just my 2 cents
|
|
|
|
|
