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Still chasng a rough idle, no check engine light, could 02 sensor still be bad? Bosch 13953 OK? 200 1991

posted by  pittroj on  Fri Mar 13 15:32 CST 2009
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last visit: Mon Oct 20 07:18 CST 2014
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My 1991 240 still has a rough idle after changing plugs, cap rotor, cleaning Idle motor, checking for vacuum leaks sniff testing vacuum line at FPR (I do smell a hint of gas there.

It appears to idle roughest when warm. I have yet to clean throttle body, snorkel.
I am running atechron through it now. I have no check engine light on.

Could my 02 sensor still be bad even if I am not getting a check engine light?

Is the Bosch 13953 02 sensor the correct one for my car?







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    Still chasng a rough idle, no check engine light, could 02 sensor still be bad? Bosch 13953 OK? 200 1991

    posted by  pittroj on  Sat Mar 14 14:25 CST 2009
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    *UPDATE*

    Today, I cleaned the AMM with the CRC cleaner, cleaned snorkel and throttle body. Checked and tightened or replaced vacuum lines. Not much change, but it does run a little better. There was an incredible amount of crap in the snorkel closest to the throttle body, carbon looking crud. No leaks in the snorkel. The flame trap is in clean working order.

    Next I will take a closer look at the FPR(smell gas at the vacuum line end) and the intake manifold gasket and the injector seals. I have had bad injector seals make a car run like crap, and the difference was unreal when I put in new injector seals. Other than the items listed above, I think I have covered most of the things that I have found in the search archives.

    I also tested the 02 sensor with a voltmeter . With car running, I have bouncing voltage 0.1 to 0.9 v on the black wire(spade connector)of the three wire sensor and car heated up. The voltage dropped off and stayed steady when I disconnected the vacuum hose to the FPR. Would this indicate correct function of the 02 sensor?








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      Still chasng a rough idle, no check engine light, could 02 sensor still be bad? Bosch 13953 OK? 200 1991

      posted by  machine man on  Sat Mar 14 21:35 CST 2009
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      last visit: Wed Oct 22 15:40 CST 2014
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      That seems like a normal response to the FPR. So the sensor appears good from what you say.

      The voltage should drop low and would have stayed more there. The ECU could not lean it out enough to compensate.

      You may still want to put on the manifold a vacuum gauge along with the voltmeter. The low/ unsteady reading gauge can tell you if there is a vacuum leak or as soon as you plug it. The sensor may be bouncing to adjust for the leak.

      It all works back and forth quickly and that causes the rough or surging idle.

      Does your car have a EGR valve? It may be partially plugged/sticking but not enough to throw a code yet. The ECU only knows heat differences of the inlet and outlet.

      Keep looking. It will show it ugly head, when it see's a good looking one!

      Phil








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      yes it could 200 1991

      posted by  trichard on  Sat Mar 14 14:43 CST 2009
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      the easiest way to find out is to disconnect the 3 o2 sensor wires at the firewall and start the car. does it idle better.......if yes drive the car......does it idle better and run better.

      if yes you have found the problem.
      if not reconnect the 3 wires and keep looking.







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        yes it could 200 1991

        posted by  pittroj on  Tue Mar 17 05:21 CST 2009
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        Trichard,
        I ran this test, didn't
        notice much change. But now, my check engine light is stuck on and won't go out.

        How do I get my check engine light to go off now? I am going to change the 02 sensor. I will report back after I have put in a new 02 sensor and driven it.








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        yes it could 200 1991

        posted by  pittroj on  Sun Mar 15 16:06 CST 2009
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        last visit: Mon Oct 20 07:18 CST 2014
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        Another update.
        I sprayed carb cleaner around the injectors and intake manifold today with no change in idle. So, I guess that rules out the injector seals or the intake manifold gasket. I am running out of options. I have gone through most of the usual test that have been mentioned here, and in the search archives.

        trichard,
        I will try your 02 sensor test and report back .

        My defroster vents are not working, which could indicate a vacuum leak under the dash. You can hear the floor vent door slam shut, but nothing from the defroster vents when the defroster button is pushed. So, that means some of my vacuum controlled stuff is working and some not which means a possible vacuum leak under the dash. But, the cruise control still works and it is vacuum controlled. However, there appears to be a hose missing off the cruise control mounted on drivers fire wall, or it could be a dead end vacuum connection.

        Oh yeah, it is running better since I cleaned the AMM with the CRC cleaner, and cleaned the throttle body, and snorkel. But, the rough idle is when it is warmed up, I may have said when cold earlier.








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    Still chasng a rough idle, no check engine light, could 02 sensor still be bad? Bosch 13953 OK? 200 1991

    posted by  machine man on  Sat Mar 14 05:14 CST 2009
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    Go with changing the FPR and rule that out. I don't think you should know there is gas around that line?

    Phil








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    Still chasng a rough idle, no check engine light, could 02 sensor still be bad? Bosch 13953 OK? 200 1991

    posted by  someone claiming to be joekidd on  Sat Mar 14 04:57 CST 2009 [RELATED]

    I just cleaned my 87 and 88 5 speed 240`s AMM with CRC MAF cleaner and the cars idle are so smooth its scary no stumble idle anymore,performance is greatly improved as is the mileage 27.5 and 27 mostly city








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    Still chasng a rough idle, no check engine light, could 02 sensor still be bad? Bosch 13953 OK? 200 1991

    posted by  Herb Goltz on  Fri Mar 13 16:34 CST 2009
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    last visit: Fri Oct 24 13:23 CST 2014
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    Have you checked the OBD codes to see if it can offer any clues?

    Do clean the throttle body and inspect the snorkel for holes, which lead to unmetered air.

    Is your intake manifold gasket sound? Spraying around each cylinder intake with carb cleaner often helps find leaks.

    The 13953 will work fine. I'd measure your output on the old one first-- it should swing from about 0.15-0.85VDC. It is worth mentioning, though, that if you have a rich or lean condition, the O2 sensor can give accurate measurements that suggest it isn't working when it actually is...

    If you do replace the 02 sensor, use good quality crimps. Some here suggest that soldering isn't a good idea. I put heat shrink over the crimps on mine.

    Good luck!







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