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I've been toying with a simple water injection (a misnomer since it does not inject!) system that I found at:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me3.html
My 760 and 245 (both running 86 B230F engines) seem to have a bit more pick up with these bleeding into the intake manifold. The cost is about $5.00 and a quart of water per week. Fuel economy may be 1 mpg more than no water. If you are interested, use the largest fish tank rock that will fit in the jar (Rubber Maid from Walmart). The plans are at the tree hugger site that I posted.
I am working on the electronics for a fuel cell that we will test in a couple of months on the 760, in the meantime the simple approach seems to work a little bit.
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Will Dallas, www.willdallas.us, www.willdallas.org, www.willdallas.com, www.dallasprecision.com 86 245 DL 222K miles, 93 940 260K miles, 88 765 GLE 152K miles
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Water injection works when you actually inject water. I'm not so sure how already evaporated water will work.
The basic way a heat(combustion) engine works based on gases and temperatures. A rapid increase in temperature creates a rapid increase in pressure. The bigger the difference in temperatures before and after combustion, the greater the change in pressures. So, a lower initial temperature will give you more power.
Fine droplets of water easily absorb heat and evaporate. Injecting water mist does this - lowering the initial temperature of the fuel/air mixture. It's not magic, it's science :D
Lower pre-combustion temps will also help to prevent knocking and preignition (they're not the same thing), so you can run with more advanced timing and possibly with cheaper gas. Also, supposedly the added water keeps carbon deposits from forming in the combustion chamber and on the valves.
I'm a skeptic in general, but especially hard to convince when anyone touts a 5-dollar device that could drastically improve mileage. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, I'm just talking about in general. A real injection setup definitely could. Simply hooking up a 5th injector and running it off the existing injector setup (you'd need more wiring) would even give you a variable amount of water. Yeehaw!
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1990 740 Turbo, on its way to stock specs, maybe beyond
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dont know if this thread is still active...
i am thinking of this for my brick. but looking at the cheap setup from the "journey to forever" link you posted. what if you hit a bump and water splashes up to the outlet hose from the bottle? isn't the idea that you want water vapor not the liquid? i feel that a bump in the road would cause liquid to get sucked into the vacc line and thus into your engine causing issues...
i dont really know much about the concept but it was my understanding that you want just he vapor for the cooling and increased density, not the actual liquid. correct me if i'm wrong...
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The idea looks simple and good . I checked turbo bricks, there it is crazy world , people are using cold start injectors,washer pumps etc or 250-500$ kits , defeats the whole purpose for me.
I have few questions though.
So it will be like a vaccume leak through water . Does not it throw the computer into thinking about unmetered air and set error code etc.
Volvo itself has built in system which leaks vaccume through charcoal canister or sucks the fuel fumes from charcoal canister. So may be it is alright to set it up like that and I am thinking too much.
I was thinking of using one of the hose from charcoal canister as it is on the throttle body as well.
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DD-1990 240 DL SW M47II FI 3.1 220 K miles Turbo Sways,Custom headlight circuit ,Insulated roof,Tinted Glass,
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This is interesting. I had almost exactly the same setup back in 1979.
An older fellow told me about it. Perhaps he got it from Mother Earth news.
I was driving a Fiat 128 coupe at the time which was a blast but had no a/c. This car was carburated of course.
I had one of those big glass Orange Juice bottles tucked under the hood and I had an aquarium stone (made from sintered metal from K mart) connected to a vacuum port on the inlet manifold with aquarium plastic tubing. Air could enter the bottle but had to leave after bubbling through the water so I effectively had a moist vacuum leak.
The principle was that if your car seemed to go better on a wet day it would do the same with this setup. I recollect that I got 1 mpg more with it than without it, around 30 mpg.
I could always tell when the bottle was out of water!
I never put it on another car and that was close to 30 years ago. I would put it on a car today but I drive a VW diesel or a Volvo diesel mostly.
It works....not a lot, but yes it works.
cheers, Steve
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I designed and built a similiar system for my hot rodded B18 in a 144S years ago. I used a ported vacuum inlet for the water "injection" and put a manifold vacuum operated heater valve (Plymouth)in the water line. When cruising along with high manifold vacuum the valve stayed shut--open the throttle, vacuum dropped, valve opened, water (metered through a carb jet) gets sucked into ported vaccuum port(s). It worked great with my 11 to 1 compression motor, kept the combustion chamber spotless and used about 1 and half gallons (washer fluid)per 15 gallon tank of gas. I was running twin Weber carbs at the time--similiar to 32/36's but they were from Renault LeCars with 30/30 throttles and lots of vacuum ports (also electric idle valves to insure no run-on)--and mounted on a pair of manifolds meant to mount 32/36's to a carbureted 164. This set-up ran great, got 22/23 around town and 27/28 on the road.
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Very ingenious! I thought about building a more sophisticated water system, but the fuel cell approach seems to be the best alternative for improving the fuel economy substantially. Once it is complete and tested, I'll post the results.
Regards,
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Will Dallas, www.willdallas.us, www.willdallas.org, www.willdallas.com, www.dallasprecision.com 86 245 DL 222K miles, 93 940 260K miles, 88 765 GLE 152K miles
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It seems very cool... however, I'm wondering about the long-term effects of MORE water in our fuel today, especially in these older engines that we're toying with.
I really don't know; I'm just wondering.
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Water injection has been around since the days of turbo charged fighter aircraft. It is used to cool the pistons and valves in high performance applications. Water in your fuel is a different animal and presents a real problem.
Regards,
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Will Dallas, www.willdallas.us, www.willdallas.org, www.willdallas.com, www.dallasprecision.com 86 245 DL 222K miles, 93 940 260K miles, 88 765 GLE 152K miles
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Alright, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.
Which vacuum line would I run this on my fuel injected '85 244?
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If you have a small vacuum port that is not being used on the intake manifold, use that one. Otherwise you will have to tee an existing vacuum line. I am not using any valves just running straight from the jug to the manifold.
Regards,
--
Will Dallas, www.willdallas.us, www.willdallas.org, www.willdallas.com, www.dallasprecision.com 86 245 DL 222K miles, 93 940 260K miles, 88 765 GLE 152K miles
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--Water injection has been around since the days of turbo charged fighter aircraft.--
Maybe 3 or 4 years earlier?
In my youth I drove a 1936 John Deere Model"D" tractor having a manually-operated bleed valve in one of the coolant hoses. We used it to route a bit of water to the intake manifold when the big 2-cylinder pinged under load.
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The other benefit to having this rudimentary water "injector" is that the car quit pinging under load. Go figure! I just checked the mileage for 201 miles of normal (freeway and cross town) driving. It took 8.675 gallons for 23.17 mpg. This particular vehicle has been just kissing 22 for the past 30,000 mile and two engines so my $5.00 injector is paid for.
Regards,
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Will Dallas, www.willdallas.us, www.willdallas.org, www.willdallas.com, www.dallasprecision.com 86 245 DL 222K miles, 93 940 260K miles, 88 765 GLE 152K miles
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Dallas,
I believe you were the person to tell us about the troubleshooting step of removing the radio suppression relay and jumpering the two heavier wires in the connector. It has been a help to me and to others as well; thanks.
Were you also the person to report that the total elimination of the RSR by using the jumper was not feasible because it caused your battery to run down? I ask because several people have questioned that because according to the wiring diagrams there does not seem to be any reason that would occur. Any clarification would be appreciated.
Randy
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Hi Randy,
The wiring diagram does not show a reason for the drain, but it appears that the injectors themselves leak to ground if you keep them hot with a jumper. Mine would quit cranking after two days. I solved the problem by installing the $5.00 relays and bases from Sherco-auto and putting one in the glove box.
Regards,
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Will Dallas, www.willdallas.us, www.willdallas.org, www.willdallas.com, www.dallasprecision.com 86 245 DL 222K miles, 93 940 260K miles, 88 765 GLE 152K miles
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I think the biggest thing water injection will do for you is allow you to run more timing advance and/or use a lower octane (cheaper) gas. So, if you're already using regular without pinging, why not try advaning the timing a couple of degrees and see if you can improve the mileage a little more. I ran a 75 240 w/ the B20 on water injection many years ago. Definitely improved the torque.
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