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intermittent no start but has spark 200 1986

posted by  1fatuheeva on  Wed Sep 19 04:57 CST 2007
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last visit: Wed Oct 21 15:55 CST 2009
[RELATED]

Hello,
I recently purchased an 86 240 wagon. The previous owner had an intermittent starting problem, took it to a shop and they replaced the coil. This was approximately 4 months ago and now the problem seems to be back. The car cranks fine. I pulled the coil wire from the distributor and there is good spark. I smell no fuel. I've seen in the forums about the very common problems with the fuel pump relay - though I couldn't figure out if it affects spark or fuel delivery. Anyway I decided to test it according to Bentley. One of the tests describes checking for battery voltage at pin 86 with the ignition on. Does this mean check 86/1 and 86/2? Because I have battery voltage (~12.4) at one and ~8v at the other - can't remember now which pin had which voltage. Am I looking in the right direction? Would I have spark if the relay was dying/dead?
Thanks,

Mike








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    intermittent no start but has spark 200 1986

    uid 18083's pic
    posted by  lucid on  Wed Sep 19 06:53 CST 2007
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    last visit: Fri Oct 24 12:31 CST 2014
    [RELATED]

    "One of the tests describes checking for battery voltage at pin 86 with the ignition on. Does this mean check 86/1 and 86/2? Because I have battery voltage (~12.4) at one and ~8v at the other"

    That "86" is a mistake in Bentley. Should be 85 — with +12V when the key is on. The +12v should be there to power the Fuel relay coil. But the actual energizing of the coil is done by the ECU, when it completes a ground for the relay coil via terminal 86/2 and the blue/green wire. This happens during cranking, when the ECU gets timing puses from the Ignition CU.

    The Fuel relay has nothing to do with spark. Here's the sequence when the engine is cranked:

    1) The distributor sends timing pulses to the Ignition CU.
    2) The ICU passes its version of these pulses to the FI ECU
    2a) The ICU also triggers the coil based on these pulses
    3) The FI ECU completes the Fuel relay ground. This powers the pumps, injectors, etc.
    The FI system is brain dead until the ICU arouses it. This is a safety feature to kill the fuel in case of an accident.

    Besides a possible flaky relay, the 25A blade fuse near the coil is another known problem area. As a test, you can bypass both that fuse AND the Fuel relay by connecting a jumper from the LEFT side contact of any fuse 6 thru 10 (always hot) to the LEFT side of fuse 4.

    BOTH pumps should run immediately, If all that's lacking is the Fuel relay, it should run. So try starting and let us know what happens.

    --
    Bruce Young
    '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.








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      intermittent no start but has spark 200 1986

      posted by  1fatuheeva on  Thu Sep 20 04:52 CST 2007
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      last visit: Wed Oct 21 15:55 CST 2009
      [RELATED]

      Bruce,
      Thanks for clearing up pin 85 for me and including all the other valuable advice. I went through the fuel relay tests from Bentley again and found no problems. I went through all the electrical tests at the ECU wiring harness and found no problems. I ran some errands with the car and after the last one the starting problem was back. I figured it was a good time to try and measure voltage at 87/1 and 87/2 again (instead of following your advice...). On the next crank, with my DMM connected to 87/1 and ground, the car started. Coincidence? The other times it had the starting problem it took more time and cranks to finally start.
      Later I replaced the 25amp F.I. fuse holder with a water resistant one from West Marine. I also pulled the fuel relay apart and soldered all the pins in case there were cracks. I couldn't see any obvious damage and there was very little oxidation.
      Now I wait and see.
      Thanks again,

      Mike








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        intermittent no start but has spark 200 1986

        uid 18083's pic
        posted by  lucid on  Thu Sep 20 06:09 CST 2007
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        last visit: Fri Oct 24 12:31 CST 2014
        [RELATED]

        Coincidence?

        Maybe, or your meter probe may have jostled the 87/1 female connector into making better contact. If so, that specific problem would be a new one to me. That's the Main relay output, powering the AMM and ECU. The more common failure is the Fuel relay not closing 87/2.

        If there's a next time, and you heard/felt the Main relay click On when the key goes to II, try probing 87/1 at that time (don't yet try starting). Voltage should be there. If so, put your meter on 87/2, then try starting and see what you get at 87/2.

        If nothing at 87/2, try starting again while holding the relay to see if you can hear/feel the Fuel relay click On while cranking.

        --
        Bruce Young
        '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.







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