My 740's timing belt broke last week (original 8-valve B230F engine). I had car towed to a shop that has a good reputation. I expected to have belt replaced and drive away (B230F is reportedly a non-interference engine). Shop agreed. Later, they call and say the belt is replaced but there are bent valves (failed pressure check). Shop says San Antonio Vovlo dealer states that the B230F IS an interference engine so broken belt = bent valves.

Before spending more dollars to pull head and examine valves I would like recommendations from B230F brick experts (first hand experience, please; not "I know someone ..." or "I read that ... ." No offense - I have to travel soon and can't waste time on well-intended opinions.

Posting is okay; direct e-mail is preferred (members only).

Thanks in advance. BK

Hope you took advantage of the situation and replaced the tensioner as well...

Yes, the "kit" included a new tensioner. Thanks. BK

First, thanks for the sage advice. The shop was mistaken and my 740 wagon now has a new timing belt and runs fine. For those who are interested, here is "the rest of the story."

Late Monday morning I informed the shop that the B230F is a non-interference engine and asked them to validate their claim that valves were bent. They agreed to do so. Late Monday afternoon the shop called back, apologizing for their mistake (the B230F is indeed a non-interference engine; they have limited Volvo experience, ZIP on the B230F, and relied on their manuals and parts catalog). They performed another "leak down" test (timing belt is off, they hand position the cam so the desired cylinder intake/exhaust valves are shut, then put air in the cylinder and monitor its rate of leakage) using a different set of gages. Valves tested fine in all cylinders. They installed a new timing belt kit. The engine started on the first try and it ran well. Finally, a compression check showed two cylinders at 150 psi, one at 140 psi and the other at 135 psi. I will probably do this again at home. I picked the car up this morning and will meet with the owner next week to discuss this whole matter.

Conclusion. I should have had the car towed home and done the job myself, or towed to my regular shop. My impression is that the shop I selected to replace the belt is honest. That said, I have no intention of taking my 740 to them again. As mentioned above, the shop owner and I will discuss this next week. Finally, with help from experts (you know who you are)and sarcasm from others (your know who you are, too), I was able to avoid the unneeded expense of pulling the head for unnecessary/unwarranted valve work.

Hi BK,

Is that right, that they replaced the belt and then claimed bent valves?
That doesn't add up.
Maybe the Damper (Crank) pulley is toast and the engine is out of time still?

Post back, I'm curious about whats happening.

Bill

Bill, thanks for your advice. I have posted a summary on the experience that includes details you requested. Cheers. BK

Hi BK,

Glad you got out of that garage with your shorts.
Dont forget to readjust the tensioner after 500-600 miles
I'm about to do that here.
If you have low compression, you might benefit from a treatment of Mystery oil in each cylinder and let it soak a day. If it's sticking rings as I had in a Toyota engine that sat around idle for a few months, It might free them up and improve the compression. That toyota was burning oil like crazy until I did a
clutch job on it and gave the mystery oil to each cylinder for the few days the car was laid up. After that It didn't burn much oil at all!
I tried an overnight soak on my B230F after so-so compression readings and it helped some. It would be interesting if others tried this and shared the results.

Regards, Bill

'Evening, Bill.

I will check the tensioner (a new one was installed) as recommended, thanks. When I get home I plan to drive the car a few miles then recheck compression. If I still have marginal readings I will try the MM treatment. FYI, an old Navy shipmate of mine near Seattle (John Chapman, distant grandson of Johnny Appleseed Chapman) rebuilt antique cars. He swore by MM (top-engine lube - it works as you said), J-B Weld (repairs to parts that were impossible to find or too expensive to buy on a sailor's pay) and Bon Ami powder cleanser (through the air intake for quick seating of rings after a rebuild). Using all three he performed a miracle - resurrection of a 1954(?) Packard Hearse in the early 80's.

Cheers. BK

Hi again BK,

Mystery Oil is really great for lots of stuff. Dunno if PB is better or not.
But I forgot to mention that after the top oil treatment for the rings,
you might just get plenty of newspapers
and crank over the engine some, to spit the oil out into the paper,
so you dont burn it and maybe mess up your O2 sensor.

You dont see any chain wrench or stilson wrench marks on the crank pulley
do you? I've been wondering.

Bill

Bill, good morning.

Thanks for the reminders. I have not seen the car yet. My wife picked it up yesterday and drove it home. When I get back Saturday I plan a thorough examination. I will pay very close attention, looking for any "bad indications" on the crank pulley. If I do, it will be another "topic for discussion" with the shop owner next week.

BK

If you have a B230F and the cam is stock a broken timing belt can not bend the valves. The valves do not go below the head deck when fully open so therefore the valves can not get bent. Stating another way, the valves when fully open do not go down far enough to hit the pistons. I have dropped a belt on a B230 while under acceleration and only had to replace the belt.

If they are getting funny readings even after replacing the belt, sometimes the pin that positions the cam gear to the cam shaft shears off. Had this happen also to a friend. Shop replaced the belt, still no compression. Had it towed to my place and found the locator pin was sheared off. New pin, new cam seal, re-timed the whole mess and drove away.

Thanks. I will check with shop to verify the status of the shear pin.

BK

Well then...."waste time on well-intended opinions". Fussy, aren't we.

Yes, occasionally :) And, I tried to be "sweet" about it! Those who are driving a RWD brick and/or participating in this fine forum should have pretty thick skin, right!?

At the risk of raising more "ire", I often read many well intended responses that conflict/contradict. I am certain you have, too. Ultimately, the facts surface - but today (this week) I am really strapped for time.

Cheers. BK

So, how will you, all by yourself, determine which responses are "well intended opinions" and which represent "facts"? Looks like you already have a collection of both. Seriously. This is a problem we all face from time to time, asking technical advice.
--
-K (hope springs eternal)

Kyle, your are right - free advice comes with risk. To minimize (not eliminate) this risk, I asked for a limited response. As you noted I received a variety of technical responses and some novel sarcasm (this is what makes the forum so valuable and interesting). Importantly, with regards to non-interference issues, the related technical responses all reconfirmed my belief that the B230F is indeed a non-interference engine. That was my biggest concern. The supplemental technical information provided by respondents would provide me with "next steps" as required. My opinion is that they were technically sound advice.

Cheers. BK

Even paid-for advice is not risk-free. Like when we seek a medical diagnosis for a son or daughter. You can get warm and fuzzy stuff that's easier to believe than, say a Dr. House type, abrupt and sarcastic, but right. All we have is our wits and experience.
--
-K (hope springs eternal)

Most of the time that the "pressure test" (do they mean compression test?) fails after installing a new timing belt it is because the belt is installed with the engine out of time. That is, the cam position is not "in synch" with the crankshaft. Valve(s) are open when piston is on compression stroke.

If the belt failure was accompanied by a violent crash noise in the engine bay, one would think the valves had hit the pistons. Not on a B230F engine. (Yes, if a B234F engine.) Usually a non-interference t-belt failure results in immediate stoppage of the engine, all the warning come lights on, and forward progress ends. Is that what you experienced?

Am I correct in assuming that you prefer not to do this job yourself? It is a relatively small job that requires time, tools, parts (belt) and knowledge to get it right. Getting the engine in time is easy, but not so easy to describe to someone who has not been in there looking at the gears and cam lobes and index marks.

I have a friend here in Houston who, in a casual conversation just yesterday, mentioned a shop on Culebra near I-35. It is named "G&G" on 1803 Culebra Road, 210-736-5671, or 210-736-0410 owned by Roger. He has gotten work on a 20-year old BMW there and sez the guy is sharp. Tech is best spoken to in person, has heavy accent, speaks ESL. Friend just spoke to Roger to be sure of the addrews. Go there.

"Rolling" magazine (pub by the VCOA) lists only one shop in SAT, Volvo Center, 210-824-3214 or 800-880-1432. They will give a 10% discount on proof of membership in Volvo Club of America.

Post back for more info, or guidance if you are going to do it yourself.

Good Luck,

Bob

:>)

PS I will add to this post if friend come back with an address in time.

Bob,

Thanks for your time, information and advice. Much appreciated.

BK

BC, thanks for the prompt reply. Let me try to answer your questios.

When the belt broke there were no unusual noises. (I have the AW-71L automatic.) The car was driving normally, moderately accelerating from a stop. Without warning the engine rpm dropped, dash lights came one and I simply coasted to the side of the road. I tried to restart the engine without success. The engine sounded like it was "free wheeling" (no backpressure. There were no other unusual noises.

I just talked to the shop. They told me that the new belt is not installed. Prior to installing they run a "leakdown" test wherein they monitor cylinder pressure while manually rotating the camshaft. Low readings were recorded for two cylinders, I believe. I asked them to recheck but to put a few "squirts" of motor oil in each cylinder first to help seal the rings.

Yes, TB replacement is a fairly simple task. I have done it on other B230F engines. FYI, I even have the special wrench to lock the pully hub while removing/installing the retaining nut. "My time" is the problem, so I prefered having the shop do it.

Thou sayest:

I just talked to the shop. They told me that the new belt is not installed. Prior to installing they run a "leakdown" test wherein they monitor cylinder pressure while manually rotating the camshaft. Low readings were recorded for two cylinders, I believe. I asked them to recheck but to put a few "squirts" of motor oil in each cylinder first to help seal the rings.



Think about what they said -

Monitor cylinder pressure - hard to get pressure in a cylinder with valves held open.

Low reading of two cylinders? Should be expected since some valves are open.

Well, the leak-down test will make no difference either, since the cam is keeping some valves open all the time.

Moving the car to another shop will be a PITA, but....

The symptoms you experienced when the engine stopped are classic for t-belt failure. Usually occurs when engine load is increased. The teeth on the belt where it is wrapped around the crankshaft gear come off the belt. Belt looks fine, crankshaft turns, belt and camshaft do not.

When attempting to start, engine turns over with a up-and-down noise, as starter speeds up when the piston comes up in a cylinder where the valves are held open. Running a cylinder pressure test is just burning daylight.

Good Luck,

Bob

:>)

A leakdown test is not done the same way a compression test is done, with the starter turning the crank. For a test with the belt not installed, the crank is set off of TDC, ideally 90 degrees so all the cyl's are half full. Then, regardless of interference possibility, the cam is rotated in 90 degree increments to close each set of valves in succession, 1,3,4,2 while the cylinder is pressurized with air and its ability to hold it is measured. The poster was looking for real experience here.
--
-K (hope springs eternal)

if it is done as you describe - with valves closed when a cylinder is checked. OK, makes sense that way.

But then you say "The poster was looking for real experience here." Those words imply that I did not qualify as having real experience. Makes me feel a little dumped on, was that your intent? I appreciate corrective criticism; politeness always makes it better learned and retained in a positive way.

Regards,

Bob,

:>)

Sorry. The implication was not made personally about you, but I can definitely see why you took the inference. By the time I wrote those words I had forgotten to whose post I was replying, only addressing the mistaken criticism of the shop's technical procedure you had made. If there's anyone on this forum that qualifies for the term "well intentioned", it is you. Sorry.
--
-K (hope springs eternal)

Kyle, this is much better than my explanation. Thanks. BK

Yeah.... holy schmoly.... a shop that runs any sort of pressure test without a timing belt on is either scamming you... or just plain not-so-bright. That's like the first day of mechanic school.

Probably should tell them this, so they don't do this trick on a car that actaully *does* have an interference engine.

-Ryan
--

Athens, Ohio
1987 245 DL 312k
1990 245 DL 133k M47, E-codes
1991 745 GL 292k, turbo sway bars
Buckeye Volvo Club

Hi Ryan,

Since I'm advocating for the devil tonight, I thought I'd offer another view: I think, perhaps, they were fairly bright. And no smell of scam rises to my nose.

Perhaps these folks aren't as familiar with old volvos as we are, but remember they were not sure of the B230F's status as non-interference. Many of our newbies aren't either, because they can quote Bentley, Haynes and Volvo's own literature saying just the opposite - because there are those exceptions overseas. But, yes we know it is non-interference. I know personally that mine are, from having freely rotated both cam and crank untethered by a t-belt.

But, again, the shop didn't know. So before wasting the time to time (ouch) it, they rotated the cam by hand to close each set of valves and attach their leakdown tester to that particular cylinder - to prequalify the job. Probably it is standard procedure in this age of crashable engines.

They didn't find a bum roll pin (they'd feel that) but perhaps any other cause for the loss of compression - gasket, dropped seat, maybe even, although I've never seen it in mine, a worn ring - to give hope to the oil squirt BK is suggesting. But the bottom line, is it didn't meet their prequal, and they have to believe the Volvo dealer when they provide the (false) information about the interference build.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

A truly happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery on a detour.

Art, as my "summary post" indicates you and I agree - I think it is a good shop with a lack of experience on my engine. Roger your "happy person" line!

Cheers and thanks. BK

...I was tempted to post a similar view yesterday, but now I'm glad I didn't.

You said it much weller than I could.

That shop is blameless.
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.

Thanks, Bob. Good stuff. I get to Houston quite often (I'm in San Antonio). Next time I'm there I would be honored to buy you a beer for your troubles. I should also be able to tell how this saga ends.

Cheers. BK

Deal! I promise at least 24 hours notice. BK

i'm no engine expert, but my old 86 240 with a B230f had the timing belt slip completely over a year ago. no bent valves, i had to replace the timing belt and that was it. ran fine for about 2 yrs till it died on me, not engine related.

Thanks for reaffirming what I "thought" I knew. BK