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Okay, I've sorted the main warning-light issues on the 850, on to more noise-related things.
Up front... I've only just started on a full tune up. The oil was changed right before I got the car, I managed to snap off two of the old sparkplugs, the plug wires are Volvo OEM (probably original to the car) I can also assume the cap and rotor are old as dirt.
The engine idles okay, not great, but okay. Throttle response is delayed. the exhaust sounds really loud while inside the car, but outside you can barely hear it. The suspension is quite squeaky - particularly the rear end.
And the interior has a bit of a coolant smell. A new core's on the list as well...
Seems like I got a real "winner" here, but it's too late to back out now.
It's the loud exhaust/engine noise inside the cabin that I'm attacking next. Any notions on what could be making such a racket under there? it's not metal knocking, more of a weird humm/groan noise. hard to describe.
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posted by
someone claiming to be David
on
Sun Mar 17 19:40 CST 2013 [ RELATED]
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The exhaust noise could be a cracked manifold Not uncommon. It will also give you the occasional fume smell while in stop and go traffic. Expensive OEM part, $550 not counting gasket and bolts. Hope for the flex pipe cracked.
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Still too dang cold/wet to go out and work on/explore the car. However, here's a pic of the exhaust area.
The flex pipe on my T3 C70 is a brass-accordion looking thing. all I can see here is the woven metal ball-looking thing. Is this the flexpipe folks are describing?
If it's the manifold, I'll likely look for a good one from a JY, or buy one of the welded up units. No way would I drop $500 for a new manifold for a $1500 car.
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That is your flex pipe. The best way to check for leaks is to start a cold engine, lightly stuff a cloth in the tail pipe and quickly get to the front and check for leaks.
A good muffler shop can cut off a cracked flex pipe and weld in a new one. The reason I mention this is because the flex pipe is part of the CAT, which is uber expensive as a complete unit.
That insulation peeling down on the firewall is not a good thing either, but at this point, who cares?
My rescue 854 is only noisy at throttle, at cruising and idle it purrs. I also need to check for leaks.
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My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic
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I'm a bit confused. The braided thing is part of the manifold, not the CAT. I didn't see any flexible bit on the cat...the o2 sensor is the 1st thing after the flange but it was dark when I was taking photos.
The CAT for this car is nearly $400 (and not legal in California) I'm not buying that if I don't have to. There seem to be quite a number of reasonably-priced welded manifolds for these cars
I'll give the rag test a try and see what happens.
The ruined firewall blanket is the ugliest thing about this car. I tried to grab one at the P-n-P a couple weeks back, but it has too many pipes running through it to easily remove. Plus, the fasteners tend to be destroyed. I was considering cutting it, but decided to back-burner it for a while. It's a secondary issue to getting the engine running smoother.
Body and interior-wise this car is great. It also runs and pulls great when warm (plenty of power) but it still sounds rather rough at idle. The injectors are firing rather loudly as well. I've got to the check timing and look for manifold leaks as soon as the weather becomes benign again.
Thanks
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Well.. weather was 74 today, but there's a high chance of snow this Sunday and Saturday will only get up to 54. Figures... You gotta love spring in the midwest...
Front-end-wise. I'm replacing the end-links and tie rods ends. Boots on the tie rods were split and dry, the rest of the boots are in surprisingly good shape.
I was just crawling under the car and taking photos. All hangars are good, but it's not obvious if the rubber hangers are new or old. There's surface rust on everything, but the welds along the exhaust pipe look good, and the flex pipe up at the manifold seems to be braided brass.. or something. Don;t see any obvious problems.
I did notice that the timing belt cover was not seated correctly at the bottom and I'm led to wonder if some of the problems could be the timing being off a bit.
I've got new cap/rotor/wires on the way. Already have new plugs and air filter. I'm hoping that a full tune-up and a timing adjustment will things out a little more.
Otherwise I might need to drop the whole exhaust to really get a good look at things.
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Your are lucky that you have a 94 with OBD readers, the 1996 keeps you guessing.
Noise? On an old car? Heck, just drive it for a while and think about replacing the worn out bushings when the weather gets nice. The bushings on the leading edge of the trailing arm on mine are all cracked and need to be replaced - rear end moans a lot over rough road.
Check the flex pipe for cracks. If an exhaust hanger broke, that will cause the flex pipe to eventually crack and be loud when you give it gas. Also check the power steering fluid level which can groan at low speeds - I added some stop leak to mine to quiet things a bit.
If your endlinks are even marginally loose when you grab one and shake it, they will need replacing.
So much to do...
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My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic
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Okay, so it occurs to me that the angle on this pipe is a bit weird. It looks as if the original exhaust pipe sleeve dissolved right on the pipe....
What concerns me most is the angle of the pipe. It seems like it is hanging really low.
Thoughts?
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That's because the hanger is completely rusted off on both ends. That rusty piece of metal coming down from the body is supposed to have a hook, as does the exhaust pipe, with a rubber donut holding the pipe up so it is centered in the hole in the bumper.
The 850 exhaust was redesigned since your car was built and a new rear hanger is required along with a new muffler/exhaust (one piece!). Time to get out the baling wire and create a temporary hanger.
Shipping a muffler from Tasca, and hanger, might cost more than getting one from the local dealer. Oh, you will also need a new forward clamp and screws to attach it to the CAT pipe. And lift the car at least 24 inches!
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My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic
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Take a closer look, there are hooks present as well as an intact rubber doughnut hanger. I don't think these are quite right, but it *is* being held up.
I confirmed at least 2 additional intact hangers and rubber doughnuts on the muffler
Regardless, the rear hook is rusty and the angle of the hanger is weird. Something is not right here.
-edit-
Okay, this diagram from eEuroparts explains a lot.
And they sell a hangar repair kit.
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The top hanger looks whacked. The donut should hang straight down to hold the tail pipe. Just get a coat hanger and prop it up for now.
Watch out, the 'new' hanger has 2 donuts and assumes that the tail pipe also has 2 metal prongs. This is the updated version where yours is the OLDer version with only one donut. I suggest looking at a pick&pull for a 1997 850 and grab the hanger and muffler/tail pipe - no one else will take it.
There is no gasket between the muffler and the CAT, just a clamp. The bolts tend to rust and snap off. So, if you can get the bolts off a P&P version, save them. The clamp usually will be reusable.
Who knows, perhaps the P&P tail pipe will come with a chrome extension?
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My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic
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my new tailpipe, brackets, and hangars arrived today and I had a chance to check out the pipe in some daylight.
What shouldn't have surprised me was that the rod hangar from the rear pipe was rusted off, what did surprise me was that the rod was intact and still connected to the top hangar by a perfect set of hangars.
So... thanks to ordering before checking, I now have a new OEM hangar and rubber hangar doughnuts... plus a space tailpipe bracket in my parts stash.
The problem is that when I lifted the (cold) rear pipe with my hands, it raised easily back to its OEM position. *WAY* too easily. It was almost as if there was a hinge in the pipe....
So I laid my camera under the car and tool a couple shots of the rear pipe-to-muffer junction. I think there's a problem there. Can't say more until I lift the car and check it more directly.
On the UP side. The noises are slightly diminished (no wagging pipe).
I've got more noises to sort in the engine compartment...
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I'm like alsnertz, OCD. Part of the reason the bracket is skewed, you tightened the bolt on the right side more than the left.
Yes, the tail pipe is easy to wiggle but that is due to the design of the clamp at the end of the CAT. That clamp only holds the two pieces of pipe together, but it is a not rigid joint.
You might want to inspect the hangers for the muffler and replace the rubber if they look 'stretched'.
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My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic
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Klaus, you make a good point. I did tighten one side more than the other. I'll see what I can do about the angle, but I think it will be still be askew.
I need to investigate the flexi-issue a bit more. The hangars are in excellent shape all the way around. I have clear photos of each (didn't feel like uploading them) and I've tested each for dry-rot.
The way the pipe "moved" felt far too easy. ...like I was lifting up one end of a short 2x4 off the top of a pile of lumber. I would have expected more resistance if the pivot point was on the muffler and I was fighting resistance from the cat-to-muffler clamp. However, there could be a problem farther forward.
Here is the rear pipe junction. Maybe I'm imagining it, but the area around the junction looks as though it's been physically stressed. The white stuff is also peculiar.
Like I said, I need to investigate this further. if it really is broken here, I'm not sure if this can be fixed. Then again, it might be fine.
I'm still getting a lot of exhaust noise, but isolating this pipe has made a difference.
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Now that the clunking noise is gone and the exhaust noise is tolerable, wait for nice weather to investigate more. The exhaust from the CAT to the bumper is one section and is not supposed to flex. The CAT to muffler is a loose fit, and the flex pipe in front of the CAT allows for engine movement.
Your muffler has probably out lived its life, heck it only has 202K miles on it! Not bad considering other cars... Just remember, the car needs to be at least 24 inches off the ground to snake in a new muffler/tail pipe. Very easy on a lift, a real pain when on jack stands.
The ice isn't melting on my garage floor yet...
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My name is Klaus and I am a V♂lv♂holic
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The weather was weirdly nice today... especially considering the inbound blizzard and warnings of 9" of snow...
But, since it was clear and in the 50s, I lifted the car and examined the rear pipe. It's actually just fine. No funny flex. The easy movement really is coming from front half. Seems that there's no hangars or securing clamps forward of muffler... Weird. I could probably stand to replace the muffler-cat clamp, but it seems to be pretty tight.
As noted in my other post, the main culprit is a completely failed motor mount.
I can order a replacement mount before I get snowed in and then wait for it all to melt before installing.
Gotta love "spring" in the Midwest.
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Consider installing the new motor mount first. That alone might get rid of your front half exhaust movement. As Klaus mentioned there is supposed to be some movement. OEM is expensive but recommended. About $115 from Tasca. Lemforder makes one too and I've seen it on the web for about $80. Lemforder is the only non-OEM mount I would consider because of their reputation. Maybe they made the OEM mount, don't know, but they do manufacture a lot of OEM parts for European cars.
I still need to do that job too but I've been lucky as my front mount is still intact. Just cracked. When the weather gets nicer I'm doing both the upper rear and the front lower mounts on my 95.
Take a real good look at the flex joint where it attaches to the rear of the exhaust manifold and at the cat for any issues.
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95 855 GLT Sportwagon 220k, 90 244 DL 300k+ - after 11 years has a new home
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These days, I almost always go OEM/Dealer, but I do trust Febi and Lemforder for quality parts.
The price difference on these things is amazing. As cheap as $13 for the URO/MTC, over $100 for Dealer part. Just how crappy is the cheap one?
Anyway, I've got a lemforder on the way. Unfortunately, the heavy snowfall will keep me from addressing anything automotive for a while.
Fortunately, the problem list is getting really short now.
Thanks for all the advice.
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Based on what I've read on the RWD forums, pretty crappy. I would never use a URO mount...:)
How much snow did you get? St. Louis, right? That storm is supposed to arrive here (Mass.) tomorrow.
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95 855 GLT Sportwagon 220k, 90 244 DL 300k+ - after 11 years has a new home
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In late 2011 I bought a pair of "aftermarket" control arms for my C70. They turned out to be "URO". However, I figured that IPD wouldn't sell me junk, so I installed them and then went for an alignment. The alignment required a significant adjustment to bring it all back into spec.
Almost immediately (like the very next day) the bumpstop/diverter broke right off. So I ordered a pair of OEM arms from TASCA and returned the URO parts to IPD (and my faith in my favorite parts provider was deeply shaken).
After installing the OEM parts, my alignment turned out to be *way* off again (because they had compensated for the aftermarket crap). So... aside from the wasted time, labor, and frustration... I wasted another $80 on second alignment.
Couple that mistake with a similar mistake with aftermarket (non-EMPI) CV shafts (about the same time) and I burned a few hundred dollars on the lesson.
My rule is *NEVER* install junk anyplace where your life depends on quality, and never anyplace that will require hours to replace and lots of extra money to fix the mistake.
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Weather-wise. Mid-50s and sunny on Saturday, started snowing this am. snowed all day. about six solid inches of accumulation.
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Oh man. You've got to straighten out that clamp.
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"Differences of opinions should be tolerated, but not if they're too different" - Sharon Craig
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the clamps a bit odd, there are three prongs. To straighten the clamp (horizontally), the pipe would be sitting so high it would rub the rear bumper.
I'm far more concerned about the easy-flex rear pipe. think I'm going to have to spring for an entirely new exhaust system...
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Ok, you're forgiven.
I think it's my OCD kicking in. I always have to straighten out or come up with something else to make sure things are square.
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"Differences of opinions should be tolerated, but not if they're too different" - Sharon Craig
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"There is no gasket between the muffler and the CAT, just a clamp. The bolts tend to rust and snap off. So, if you can get the bolts off a P&P version, save them. The clamp usually will be reusable."
And this is the joint where mine rusted through. The joint between the two pipes is kind of like a bubble flare. On mine, the "bubble" was rusted through and cracked. So I tried cutting the whole joint out and replacing it with a muffler adapter (using it like a sleeve). It worked ok, not great, but ok and still leaked a little because of the bends in what was left of the original pipes. In other words, I could not get the new sleeve to seat properly on the old bent pipes.
Still, it was better than what was there.
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"Differences of opinions should be tolerated, but not if they're too different' - Sharon Craig
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Yeah, I can see that it's whacked now.
I went ahead and ordered the repair bracket, plus a new hangar bracket (for the body), a couple rubber doughnuts and new tailpipe. About $50 shipped, so it's fairly reasonable.
I want to visit PnP in this wet/cold weather about as much as I want to go lay on the wet concrete under the car in my carport..
I still think that the main problem is further forward, but perhaps this will help *if* it is tilting the pipe up against the "drive" tunnel and causing some of the noise.
It looks pretty close to the tunnel...
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Also check your motor mounts. Particularly the lower passenger one (rubber) that sits below the belts and sprockets at the front of the engine on the subframe. Mine was bad and allowed the rear part of the muffler to occasionally shift and move up melting the underside of the bumper.
All my exhaust hangers are good as AFAIK, but I think I'd better take another look based on what I've read in this thread. I replaced the rusted rear one with a new bracket kit from IPD about 2 1/2 years ago. Is that were you got yours?
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95 855 GLT Sportwagon 220k, 90 244 DL 300k+ - after 11 years has a new home
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Good point on the mount. Is that mount especially vulnerable to oil damage? I can see that there's been some oily crud development down there.
I went with eEuroparts, better deal and free shipping with a $50 purchase.
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Yeah, I think it would be vulnerable to oil since it is mostly rubber.
Mine didn't go bad because of an oil leak. Just old age...:)
Typically on 850's (probably also true on C70's, S70's and early V70's too) the 2 mounts that tend to go bad are the lower front and upper rear stabilzer as they are mostly rubber. My understanding is that the other mounts don't normally go south. The tranny mount and the other engine mounts have very little rubber.
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95 855 GLT Sportwagon 220k, 90 244 DL 300k+ - after 11 years has a new home
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That's reasonably good news, as those other two mounts are a bit of a nightmare to access on the turbo models like my C70. Not *too* bad on an NA 850, but still not as easy as my 940.
The upper mount on this 850 is in great shape (which is a "first" time experience for me). The C70 was upgraded to IPD poly almost everywhere. I was thinking of doing something similar to the 850.
I'll need to peel-back the fender liner to route the signal repeater wires and to check the timing, so I'll have a look at the mount while I'm in there.
Thanks
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- Rear suspension -
Check the rear shock mounts. I had to replace them on my 95. Common problem on 850's. One good thing about 850's is that the rear suspension rarely needs work. However, my car has also recently developed a "squeak" that sounds like it might be the driver's side rear shock. Do you know if shocks develop "squeaks" when they are tired? If it needs shocks I guess I can't complain since the rear shocks are original at 220k...:)
I haven't been able to locate the noise yet. For now, I'm waiting for warmer weather before I dive into it. The weather is still cold here in New England.
- Front suspension -
Don't know what would squeak in the front end but I'd start by looking at the small stuff first. If you hear noise during tight turns then your bump stops need lubing. Bad sway bar end links make more of a "bang" noise on bumps. I would then move onto motor mounts, struts, tie rods and ball joints.
Good luck with the project! Sounds like it has some issues but nothing that is a deal breaker.
J
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95 855 GLT Sportwagon 220k, 90 244 DL 300k+ - after 11 years has a new home
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This post has been marked as an answer to the original question.
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I got into the right front wheel-well today to route my fender repeater lights and to get a better look at the main crank area.
The first thing I saw when I peeled back the wheel well liner was a big chunk of loose rubber.
The "front" motor mount failed completely.
I levered up the engine (while idling) and almost all of the noises vanished. The engine has been vibrating directly against the sub-frame.
Not having a replacement motor mount handy, I cut a few short pieces of heater hose and slid them under the failed mount. The engine now idles smooth and easy.
NOTE: This is 100% temporary and the car won't be driven around like this!
In addition, I confirmed that my exhaust system is not rotten out or broken.
I replaced the serpentine belt, I also finished up the tune-up (OEM plugs, cap, rotor, wires, air filter).
Between all of it, I think I've tackled the whacky noises. MOST (but not all) of the noise was from the failed engine mount.
What's left? somewhat loud noises coming from the fuel injectors and some oil drip under the engine. The injectors on my c70 are pretty loud too, so there might now be much to be done there.
The oil drips are at least "quiet"
Thanks for all the advice, guys!
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My guess would be the flex pipe or the joint between the catalytic and rear pipe.
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"Differences of opinions should be tolerated, but not if they're too different" - Sharon Craig
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Just an educated guess -
Look at the rearmost exhaust hanger - is it new or has it been repaired?
If so, maybe it failed and the hanging system opened up a split on the top.
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'96 855R,'64 PV544 driver, '67 P1800 basket case, '72 Yamaha Rd400, '68 Honda 350-4, '12 XC70, the first 5 are mine, heh, heh, 525,000 miles put on 10 bricks James A Sousa
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