I posted this on MVS and read a bunch of guides, but none seems to answer my question under my circumstances...
1998 2.3L T5 Turbo. 220K miles
I just did a complete head gasket job plus a lot of additional small hoses and seals, PCV tube, coolant reservoir, vacuum elbows and similar. It came to this after the head gasket opened between the water jacket and the #3 cylinder. I pulled the cams and cam gears. Intake and Exhaust were easy to keep separate. Getting the cam gears aligned perfectly was a little more of a challenge.
I just buttoned the engine back up, after two long weeks and started it up. It runs kinda rough. makes some extra exhaust noises (sounds like valve noises and I'm treated to new and unpleasant smoke from the exhaust manifold. After letting it reach normal temperate, I shut it down and re-checked the cams.
I'm worried that the timing is off, but unsure how to re-check it.
My timing belt cover appears to have had the notched portion cut off. There are white marks at the 12 o'clock point on the cams, but only the intake cam has an index mark on the cover. Without the notched plastic, I can only give my best guess that the marks on the cams are in precisely the correct place.
I think the exhaust cam gear might be off a notch. Probably one tooth too far forward... but I can't be sure.
My crank gear is also a little confusing - having not one mark, but two very small notches, one on the tip of a pair of adjacent teeth. I've been aligning the low-point between these teeth to the index mark on the front of the engine. This puts #1 cylinder at approximately TDC.
I confirmed the following:
1) Can lay a steel straight edge across the cam bolts. It lays perfectly across the top bolt on the exhaust cam, and the two top bolts on the intake cam. It will do the same if held along the bottom.
2) With the cam position sensor removed, the "slot"on the exhaust cam is horizontal above the center line of the head. The Slot on the intake cam is horizontal below the center line of the head.
3) With the sparks out, I can rotate the crank easily encountering no mechanical interference.
I have to have this car back on the road asap. Any advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
I have come the end of this chapter in this comedy of errors.
Up front, I'll state that the current guides and instructions for doing a head gasket replacement are far too optimistic in terms of the additional replacement parts that *must* be on hand to make the repair successful.
So.. bottom line here is Klaus was right from the start. Exhaust problem.
The manifold did not seal at the #1 port. The turbo to manifold nuts and the turbo to exhaust nuts also worked loose.
So this happened. It is seriously kinked and warped.
The manifold to head problem was not immediately clear. They were torque up just fine, but the manifold nuts and "what-I-could-get-on-labor-day" manifold studs did not play well together.
Important Lessons
#1 - don't re-use exhaust nuts. Order 20 new ones along with the gaskets.
#2 - expect that all 10 manifold studs will back-out of the head and will be destroyed when you try and remove the original nuts.
#3 - replacement manifold studs must be *fully* threaded.
#4 - DON'T EVER try and remove the short studs from the manifold. They are special locking studs that cannot be removed safely.
#5 - it is MUCH harder to screw up your timing that you might think.
Plan to. Time to play "940" for a bit. Got a coolant loss issue going on there too. Not the head gasket - fortunately. Seems to be losing it all around the waterpump. A new one is on the way from IPD. Regardless of how it plays out, fixing a red block engine is infinitely easier.
That picture doesn't really do the gasket justice. The warp/kink in the gasket deviates a full 4mm from true. I was extremely lucky to have ONE additional replacement manifold gasket on hand - which was exactly what I needed.
What seems to have lead to the near-immediate failure of that gasket was the irreparable damage to several of the manifold studs. When I say that the old nuts can't be removed - it's because some of them destroy the stud at the end. They tear the threads right off the stud. I lost 4 studs trying to remove the original manifold nuts.
After an extended search of all the local parts places, I finally found some replacements at the better local hardware store.
Trouble is, not all the replacements were fully threaded studs. So when I torqued one of the partially-threaded studs down, the un-threaded center bit was thicker than the thickness of the manifold and washer - just enough. So it *was* fully torqued, but not holding the manifold properly around the #1 exhaust port.
To really add to the fun, getting the studs far-enough back into the head was a real chore. One failed to set and I lost 5 mm of aluminum head threads when it stripped. I was *very* lucky that I had enough thread left in there to set a replacement the stud.
However, I expect that I will have a helicoil installation to perform in my future... Hopefully it can last long-enough for me to rebuild the engine properly... the high variation on those compression readings concerns me.
The total cost for this repair (and a lot of attendant repair and replacement under the hood) plus x3 car rentals, is *still* less than half of the lowest estimated cost for the repair.
Anyway - I can now say that I feel significantly more comfortable with a whiteblock engine and the turbocharger. I may even be able to help out others with this hard-won knowledge. Thanks for sticking with me to the end.
I did a compression test to determine if I had an exhaust valve stuck open. Results are a bit troubling, but didn't give me a clear answer to the noise and burned oil smells... though that does remind me to check the PCV hose on the oil trap.
#1 - 115
#2 - 130
#3 - 130
#4 - 160
#5 - 150
#1 is obviously a problem. #4 seems kinda high as well.
For reference, here's the head and valves right when I removed it.
You can see where the head gasket had failed on #3
If only he hadn't replaced the front cam seals and marked the exhaust cam like the intake cam. He did get the crank to TDC along with the intake cam on the new mark. I think the exhaust cam is off by a few teeth.
It is hard to check the timing marks on these engines with the engine running...
Klaus
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
I got my new timing belt cover today. I managed to get the crank and cams out of sync by popping off the belt for adjustment, but with some effort and manual spinning, I finally got them all back into alignment.
I tried a couple teeth forward, and tooth or two back. None of it changes anything at all. I couldn't get the exhaust noises to change cylinders, and centering each cam gear on the camshafts (as suggested for such problems) did nothing at all. I'm still getting ZERO CELs.
I think Klaus' original suggestion that it's my manifold might be on the right track. I said I torqued them all down, but maybe it was a false torque. That caused me a lot of issues with the headbolts, and maybe there's an issue with the manifold studs.
*ALL* the manifold studs backed out when I removed the head. I had to lock up the studs with a pair of high-strength nuts and work very hard to get the nuts off. In a couple cases the end of the studs were so "attached" the nuts, I ended up stripping the threads off the stud. I think I need to find some new manifold nuts to go with the new studs I bought on labor day.
I also found that there was no gasket at all between the exhaust and the turbo, nor a turbo/downpipe gasket. IPD sells them, so I'm going to order some. I've got an R-type manifold on the way from Erie Volvo. That should be a good excuse to pull the turbo and manifold again and check everything.
The clicking/slapping noise is still bothering me, but I have to say that my power and fuel consumption is just about where it should be. I'd expect more issues with all my exhaust valves out of whack.
Good idea. When all else fails, it's Miller time! You need a break anyway.
So long as the car is drivable, drive it. The computer will adjust for timing errors.
When you get the R manifold, use new gaskets withOUT the copper spray, it is not needed. As for the gaskets between the downpipe/turbo/converter, some cars don't have one. I never had my R turbo off, so I don't know, but it didn't look like there was a lot of room for a gasket.
I drove my 220 today. It put a big smile on my face as the speedo went to 80mph. Four fuses and no computers.
Klaus
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
"...The computer will adjust for timing errors..."
The computer can adjust the ignition timing, but it can not do anything for the mechanical valve timing if there is no variable valve timing servo (which can only adjust to certain limits even if you did have it).
I agree with you though - Miller time!
"...Four fuses and no computers..."
And only one cam!! And there's no interference!! And you can actually SEE the timing marks!!
And there's no belt at all! Gotta deal with valve lash, though.
My wife's 940 had some sort of cooling failure today, so I get to work on that now. Sounds like the lower hose failed. hopefully it's not the radiator, which was a brand new nissens 7 years ago.
C70 is still clicking away. Drives fine, but makes an awful racket.
it sounded like this yesterday and today. This PM, I pulled the timing belt and re-set and re-adjusted the timing belt - setting the Crank, and then the intake gears and focusing my attention on the exhaust cam.
The exhaust cam crept *very* easily when I was trying to install the belt or the cam locking tool. I managed to move the gear back 1 tooth, and now both cam gears are exactly 6 teeth from the index mark, to the first fully engaged tooth on the belt, as well as precisely in A-V bolt alignment. I also released the exhaust cam briefly and removed the slack between the intake and exhaust gears.
I test started the engine and re-adjusted the belt twice. Each time, the exact same noise returned. The engine *still* sounds just like in this video.
Four possibilities are kicking around in my head.
1) I'm still not getting the cam properly aligned.
Seems unlikely at this point, but clearly something is not right.
2) Maybe, like a B18/20, the crank has more than one point where the #1 cylinder is near TDC - that is, it takes TWO complete revolutions to reach the proper index mark... I tried to spin the crank and extra revolution and the piston jammed up against the valves - so no-go. Don't see how the engine could be running if this was the case. A B18/20 won't work at all like that.
3) I have a huge, but invisible exhaust leak.
I'll be damned if I could find it, but it is possible.
4) it's something else - perhaps a stuck hydraulic lifter/cam follower?
Seems risky to pry the head apart again just to take a look.
I seem to be burning my oil... I can smell a bit of burned oil when I park, and my level of new, clean, fresh Mobil1 dropped today. How may quarts are supposed to be in this engine?
I am getting close to taking it to a Volvo shop... It would be tantamount to admitting defeat, but still vastly cheaper than if I had gone to one for the head gasket.
If I think one of the camshaft gears is "off" which one should I hold constant to the crank gear - intake or exhaust?
I've been holding the intake solid (because it's the one with an index mark) and I've been dialing the exhaust back and notch or two at a time. Is this backwards?? Should I be moving the intake forward/backward - as it's the side that has timing marks on the cover??
You may need a tool like this to hold the cams in the correct position whaen you install the sprockets. It holds the LH ends of the cams while you align the sprockets with their marks. (I think that's how it works.)
I seem to recall discussions on MVS about people making the tool. It appears from what photos I've seen that the slots on each cam need to be in line with each other - if so that would kinda make a home-fab tool possible. It would be important for the tool to be a close tolerance fit in the cam slots. I wonder if the cam slots are a bit off center so that you don't get a cam 180 off??
What about this? You use a dial indicator in cylinder #1 to find true TDC - that would null any questions about where the crank sprocket timing mark really is. That was the biggest problem I had when replacing the T-belt on my white block. It's rather vague.
Then use a cam hold tool on the LH ends (either purchased or home made) to assure both cams are at TDC.
Loosen the sprocket bolts on both cams.
Install the belt and apply tension.
Assuming everything is still at TDC at that point, THEN tighten the sprocket bolts.
This is all just me thinking - someone else may read it and blow holes in it.
I still have a question in my mind about what keeps you from having one of the cams 180 out of whack. Doubtful if the cam that drives the distributor is 180 out as you had spark enough to get it running, albeit rough. If you think about it you could have a cam 180 off and still not experience piston/valve interferrence as the piston would still be in the same position at valve openning that it should be, just on the wrong stroke. If you could see the index mark on both cam sprockets you would know that you aren't 180 out as there are 3 bolts (odd number) in the sprocket so it would be impossible to be wrong. Have you looked at the sprockets very very close? I found those marks to be a very faint score on the sprocket face.
I'm not sure what's up now, but the car won't start.
I removed the timing cover and manually cranked the engine a few times to the proper timing marks. Everything lines up.
I did not mess with the belt, but instead removed the turbo hose, air box, and battery, dizzy cap, cam sensor, plugs and wires.
I checked the cam positions and the plates bolted to them. I cleaned out the area, waited a bit, and reinstalled everything.
Unfortunately, I can't start the engine now. it makes a pipaty-pipty noise instead of fully starting.
I guess this rules out the timing belt and gears as the problem, but makes most of the ignition system suspect.
Cap, Rotor, Wires, and plugs are new. Cam sensor is not, and a bit of the plastic plug is broken, but it looks new otherwise.
I'm going to go back into the cam ends and try it all again. Not sure what difference it will make now.
If these symptoms sound familiar, please let me know.
thought I almost had it. removed the cap and rotor, checked the alignment of the rotor plate, reinstalled everything - no change whatsoever. No start at all.
However, I did unplug the cam position sensor and found a ton of gunk on the female-end contacts, which I cleaned and then I tried it again. This time it started briefly and died again. I think I'm getting closer. Will pull the cam sensor again and inspect it. The car did actually start and run before I messed with it earlier today.
Just to be clear, this engine only has ONE point where the crank and cams are supposed to align - not TWO points like on a B18?
Sorry, I just came back from KC. On your next trip to the pick & pull, grab a new plastic cam cover which has 2 notches - no one ever takes them.
Your exhaust header shouldn't 'smell' and could be an exhaust leak. Remember, your muffler could be full of antifreeze from the #3 leak, which doesn't help matters.
Re-check the cam gears. Make sure you have the bolts where they were initially. The crank gear mark is almost microscopic! The 'scratch' can look like a very tiny dent in the back of the valley, on the oil pump side.
Because you could idle the engine long enough to warm it up, the timing isn't too far off. More than 1 tooth would/should have caused an error code.
Don't forget to check the cam position sensor wires - they must be below the distributer so that the plug wires don't touch it.
Klaus
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
Klaus, Hope your trip to KC was enjoyable. I've got a second/orginal thread running on MVS about this as well. I'll drop some clarifications.
I initially set the timing, test-turn the engine a couple times and and started it. Sounds were a bit off, but I let it idle up to temperature. This is when the #5 cylinder started sounding like an exhaust leak and char/smoke was emanating from the exhaust manifold. I reset the timing, moving the exhaust cam back a couple notches. This moved the noise from #5 to #1 and the smoking stopped entirely.
I figure that the smoking was probably the copper gasket sealer burning off. That part has been fine since the first run... and since I replaced a missing copper crush ring on the water-pipe on the body of the turbo - zero fluid loss - finally!
I fiddled with the timing some more last night - making every possible effort to check and re-check the alignment of the three cam bolts. They checked out again and again with a metal straight edge along the top (1 and 2) and the bottom bolts (2 and 1). I loosened the exhaust cam bolts to allow the cam to move slightly to seat the teeth of the timing belt. Then, I torque it all down, check rotation.
And this changed nothing. Several folks at MVS have stated that what I did should have worked. A couple have suggested that the firing order could be off or that something else is off.
Considering the tear-down and rebuild I had to do, maybe something is not right. I'm planning to check my timing again and follow up with an investigation of the spark plugs, dizzy, and the cam position sensor.
The sensor is right back where it used to be, but I'll check it for trouble.
Time to recheck the torque on the exhaust bolts (18 lbs). I know, pain in the butt, but needed now that the engine has been up to temp once. If some of the copper burned off, that will make a difference.
The engine computer will adjust the timing if the cams and crank are close. The engines with VVT will set a code if they are 1 tooth off, the 'regular' engines will need more than 2 teeth off to throw a code, and that is quite close to valve touch.
When you moved the exhaust cam back a couple of notches, move it forward 1 so there is no noise in #5 or #1. :>)
All easy to say from here... Just get the car running!!!!! No beers for you tonight!
Klaus
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
The trouble is... the dang cams are precisely where they ought to be. Checked front and back. A-V, _- If I dial something back a notch then the cams won't be aligned anymore. Maybe that's the deal here. But dang... which one is off?
I miss the smooth sounds of my motor. Maybe I need to let it run and let the computer adjust things. This is not a VVT engine.
I'm going under the car to tighen up the exhaust manifold. That could help some... but the car still sounds like a tractor and throttle response is poor.
Here's the cams. You'll have to take my word for it that I can lay a straightedge along the top and bottom touching all bolts heads.
I've got a replacement timing cover on the way. OEM Volvo $20.00
-edit-
Just spent an hour or so clambering around on top of and under the engine to get the manifold nuts extra tight. A few had loosened a bit, but the ones back by the turbo were fine... took a lot of work to determine that...
So, took her for a drive. Sounds like a john deer when applying throttle, but does run safely enough for in the city. *have* to use the car tomorrow. No other options, so we'll see how it goes. I'm staying off the interstate.
I'm getting ZERO engine codes. I can't be that far off. It does kinda sound like a hole in my exhaust, but there are none. No leaks.
I'm back to thinking that one of the cams is slightly off from the other. It's going to be late in the week before my new timing cover gets here. *maybe* that will solve it. If it holds up tomorrow, I will take another stab at the gears and try to get the exhaust back one notch at a time.
Had I realized what a nightmare this was going to be, I
Klaus has it right. original owner cut the timing cover index mark plastic bit off, and put some white-out on the 12 o'clock positions on the cam gears and cover. That's the only constant I have to work with - aside from the "V" vs. "A" configuration of the bolts.
I made a couple rookie mistakes when I took it apart - for one, I couldn't figure out how to release the belt tensioner, so I removed the cam gears to get the belt off.
For another, I lost the precise alignment of the cam gears to the camshafts when I did the above. I'm pretty close and can see the old bolt marks, but clearly something's not right.
To your earlier question, the distal ends of the camshafts have off-set notches. That is, the notch is on the upper half of the "circle" on one, and the lower half of the circle on the other. You could not put a straight piece of steel across the slots. That tool you pointed to just keeps them locked, each offset by approximately 1/8" from the same approximate horizontal line.
I drove the car today, Puter-puter. Think one of the cylinders has open exhaust valves when the spark fires - that would be consistent with the sound.
Maddeningly, I still get no CEL - you'd think I'd have one by now?
Split your screen and look at the belt on Volvospeed, I counted 5 teeth starting to lift or lifted on both cam gears before the mark. Yours are not the same, especially the exhaust.
I have 32 in my head. I'm counting as well. Still not sure I seem really close. Will compare it to a couple other pics I know about. Exhaust is maybe 1 tooth off? Intake looks fine. 6 teeth from the tick mark to the 1st fully engaged tooth at 0 degrees TDC.
Here's the video. of the engine Listen for the odd engine noises. There's a bit of a slapping noise. It's a bit more audible when I rev the engine.
The previous owner screwed things up with those stupid white marks. True, it did run OK, but it was a Mickey Mouse way to get it right. My guess is that they removed the sprockets from the cams to replace seals or something, but then didn't get the sprockets bolted back on in the correct rotation. So rather than fix it right, they jury rigged the marks.
You need to expose the LH ends of the cams to get the slots horizontal while at the same time getting the sprockets indexed back to their CORRECT marks.
Until you do this, you are going to remain lost in space and still not know where you're at.
Check the sprocket part numbers and make sure they didn't get swapped accidentally.
Chris, yes, I agree. White marks are stupid - especially when it's missing one on the rear. My new cover will be here this week some time - but that's not going to solve this in and of itself.
I now have a much greater appreciation for holding those cams steady. Any future repair efforts will be better informed... :\ Following a guide where a lot of additional (unrelated) work is involved makes determining what parts are *really* important much more difficult. At the end of this, I'll owe you and Klaus a beer, and I'll be much more comfortable with the "newer" Volvo engines.
I have done as you suggested several times - pulling the dizzy and sensor ends and aligning the cam end slots. The index marks are offset from the center line and it's not too hard to get those oriented correctly. 'though I did note that the exhaust cam was fond of turning a bit on its own...
That's really the frustration. It's all aligned as per instructions, but the exhaust cam is off and the car runs, but sounds awful.
I'm thinking that either the crank or the cams may need to be rotated a second time to come into proper alignment. I recall from my B18 knowledge that you have to turn the crank completely two times to get the timing correct. Understanding that a B18B is a much different beast than a B5234 T5 Turbo, I was concerned by a note I read about aligning the system for disassembly - namely, that if the crank and timing marks do not all all align, you will need to turn the engine for one more complete revolution.
I am 90% sure that the intake cam is spot on to the crank. The engine wouldn't run at all if those two were out of sync. The exhaust cam is clearly off.
My plan now is to remove the timing belt and rotate the exhaust cam another full revolution and re-set everything. If I get no change at all, I'll be inclined to think that the crank is on the wrong "spin" relative to the cams.
I'll double check the ends, but all the photos and guides I've checked indicate that the two notches are precisely where they should be.
Someone please correct me if my thinking is completely off-base, but I can't think of any other reason for the exhaust cam to be out of sync, even when it's marks are fully aligned.
If that *still* doesn't do it, I may have to open the cam cover again. I can't spin the crank with the intake cam in place. There's no clearance...
First off, I now see what you and Klaus were talking about in terms of the marks on the plastic cover being at approx 2:00 for the exhaust and 10:00 for the intake. On my 2003 V70 2.4, both sprockets align their marks at 12:00. I didn't know the older ones were different.
As for your problem, let's think it through in a methodical manner. You may have both cam marks and the crank mark all aligned perfectly, but that doesn't mean the sprockets are bolted to the cams in the correct orientation. One cam could easily be 120 deg off.
So I ask you, when the cam sprockets are both on their correct timing marks, how are the notches oriented on the LH ends? If they are not BOTH horizontal, then the cam that isn't horizontal needs to be unbolted from the sprocket and, leaving the sprocket stationary, rotate the cam until the notch is horizontal. If, once the notch is horizontal, you can't install the sprocket bolts, then the cam needs to be rotated another 1/2 turn (180 deg). Then screw the bolts back in. You may need do this for BOTH cams. Is it the exhaust cam that drives the distributor? I can't remember off hand - I too am new to these engines and my car isn't at hand to look. But you'll need to be aware of the cam/distributor relationship when you reinstall the distributor, unless it's keyed in a way to avoid misalignment.
Now, lets talk about how to safely spin a cam when the crank is stationary. On a 5 cylinder engine, there will be one piston that reaches the top of its stroke every 72 degrees of crank rotation. (360 divided by 5 = 72) You don't want to spin a cam independantly of the crank if a piston is at the top of its stroke, or you could have valve/piston contact. So what you want would be for the crank to be rotated about 36 degrees either way of TDC before you start to turn a cam (1/2 of 72 deg = 36 degrees). You can only go half of the 72 degrees otherwise the next piston to approach the top of its stroke will be getting too close. My trig calcs tell me that 36 degrees of crank rotation will drop the piston roughly 1/3" from the top. Hopefully that would provide enough clearance for a valve to open, but you would want to be VERY careful when you start to rotate a cam just in case it does contact a piston.
Another forum I read led me to believe that when the crank mark is aligned, the piston is NOT at TDC, but rather some amount off of TDC so that you can rotate a cam freely. If I was you, I would place a dowl or screwdriver in #1 spark plug hole to see if actual piston TDC occurs at the point where the crank mark aligns. Remember, if you start to rotate a cam freely, you're interested in where the piston is, not so much where the mark is, in terms of preventing damage.
BTW - don't get all wrapped up in the whole two rotation vs one rotation business. The reason that gets mentioned all the time is because it takes two revolutions of the crank to turn the cams one revolution. But if the belt is off, turning the cam one complete turn does nothing besides bringing it right back to where it was.
Oh, and don't be so sure that having the intake cam (or exhaust cam for that matter) way out of time will keep it from running. One time I screwed up a timing chain install on a car and the cam was about 120 deg out of time. It still ran.
Okay, here's what it looked like on Monday when I had the ends off the car. They've turned a couple degrees, but you can see that the exhaust cam is 180 degrees out from the intake cam.
You'll have to take my word for it that I went to extreme lengths to align the six gear-end bolts into a V to A formation while trying to hold these perfectly parallel.
The question was raised in another forum - why do I think that timing is the issue? I'm citing the nature of the noise, funky new exhaust smells, and that the ignition components were perfect before the head gasket job. Plus the complete lack of CELs that I would be getting with engine misfires or dead cylinders
In your photo, it appears that the slot on the intake is above center and the slot on the exhaust is below center. I read somewhere yesterday that they should be on the same plane. That would mean one of them is 180 out. I'm not sure of that, but it would sure seem logical and I would certainly ask a good Volvo mechanic or dealer before progressing.
I've never seen the cam ends for reals in person, but if the slots are offset and not directly across the center, then they most certainly should be lined up.
The build-it-yourself tool for locking the cams in the Haynes manual is built around straight metal so everything should be lined up - slots should be even/level with each other and perfectly lined up so you could put a straight edge through them (if the head wasn't in the way).
The rear of the cams are not notched level. The Haynes suggests using welding wire to hold them in place during head replacement. There is also a pic showing the slight difference in the notches. The pic showing the holding 'tool', has two small metal pieces that go into the slots and they do not have to be 'level'.
If the cam was 180 degrees out, the engine would NOT run and valve damage would happen.
Klaus
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
Thanks for the info KlausC. We're all learning a lot with this one eh? the appearance of the tool on a straight piece of metal had me convinced they would be aligned as I described in my previous post.
That's a good write-up. I found a couple places on the web yesterday that agreed with the "intake-up/exhaust-down" orientation. I'm have trouble digesting that - seems so darn illogical.
I'm with you Chris - it definitely seems illogical, and I would have bet my life on an 'inline' orientation based on the DIY cam-locking tools I've seen (like the one I posted a pic of earlier).
Still it is what it is. Offset orientation is clearly the way it goes.
At least they both go straight across the head he? we can all agree on that? :)
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1998 V70 AWD->FWD->AWD Turbo 220k+
The tool that the guy made for that guide had two parallel cuts in a piece of wood with two off-set steel plates. The Haynes manual shows a tool made of angle-iron with an 1/8" plate between the two steel tabs. Unsure what volvo was thinking on this design, but they must've had something in-particular mind.
You shouldn't be able to 'spin' the intake OR the exhaust cams without hitting a valve. If you spin the exhaust cam 360 degrees, you haven't done anything.
Remember when you moved the exhaust cam and the noise went from #5 to #1? Just move the tooth part way.
If the crank is 360 off, then the engine would not run. TDC on #1 would then have the exhaust valves open.
Klaus
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
Okay, that's what I was thinking when I took it apart. Good to have a confirmation.
The thread on MVS explained that the crank itself spins twice for every single rotation of the two camshafts.
My working assumption was that the purpose of the dual cams was to improve efficiency by removing the need for two rotations of the camshaft to intake and exhaust the gases.
Actually, the real purpose for having dual cams is to have more lobes and valve capacity. Now, it allows for variable timing between the exhaust and intake.
Your pic of the rear of the cams looks good, except the exhaust is a little off. I still think rotating the exhaust cam clockwise 2 notches is the way to go. Yes, I look at all of the posts on the BB.
Yeah, in the photo it is a little bit off, but I found that the exhaust cam likes to move with very little encouragement. Getting them close on that end has been the goal. I've always relied on the bolt-end alignment A - V shape with a straight edge across the bolt heads before firing it up.
I would forget about the A V relationship for now, the timing is off. When I look back at the Volvospeed pic :http://volvospeed.com/volvo_repairs_how_tos/engine_repairs/timing_belt_change.html
I realize the camera lense could be messed up, but the A doesn't look THAT good. The rear of the cam IS more important than the front, especially when the gear can be repositioned.
BTW, we are supposed to go below 32F tonight.
Klaus
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
I'm starting to think that the alignment of the rear camshaft is much more "adjustable" than first thought. When loose, the gear itself can be adjusted by 3 or so teeth. Which is really meaningless as it's the position of the cam itself that's important.
Guides I've read suggest that aligning the bolts on the cam gear should be adequate. I found that the center point did not allow the teeth on the belt to align. I loosened it slightly (holding the camshaft steady) and turned until the belt was taut.
And that changed nothing whatsoever.
So, If I'm going to play with the exhaust cam, I need two bits of advice.
1) Which direction should I move it - forward or back?
2) How much can it be adjusted before the valve start hitting?
I would start by moving the exhaust cam clockwise by 2 teeth. Put the belt back on and rotate the engine by hand, with the plugs removed so you can feel for any resistance. If that 'feels' good, put the plugs in and start it up. Always let it run for at least 1 minute to build up oil pressure, unless you hear something wrong.
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
Intake does look fine, but exhaust appears to be off. That sound is like the exhaust valves are open slightly when the spark happens. If so, you will not get a misfire code because the exhaust gasses look good to the O2 sensor.
I can't look at the pics any more, my eyes are starting to fall out :)
When will you have time to get a 'new' piece of plastic with the proper notches?
Klaus
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
"...the distal ends of the camshafts have off-set notches. That is, the notch is on the upper half of the "circle" on one, and the lower half of the circle on the other. You could not put a straight piece of steel across the slots. That tool you pointed to just keeps them locked, each offset by approximately 1/8" from the same approximate horizontal line..."
Uhhhh, are you SURE that's the way they're supposed to align, or is that the way your's happen to be right now?
I'm attempting to attach a marked-up copy of your photo so you can see what I mean about the marks. (I'm not 100% sure that what I'm seeing in the picture are the factory marks but they sure look like it.
For the moment I'm assuming you shot the picture with the crank at TDC.
"...original owner cut the timing cover index mark plastic bit off, and put some white-out on the 12 o'clock positions on the cam gears and cover...."
I think your cams are significantly out of time, but hopefully not enough to have caused any damage.
The painted marks appear to be about 60 deg off of the scribes. So with that in mind picture this:
You can make the sprockets align with their timing marks all day long. But there are three different possibilities for indexing the sprockets to their respective cams (because there are three bolts). But only ONE combination will bring each cam around to where its notch on the LH end is horizontal. Each of the "incorrect" combinations will put the notches 120 deg off.
My gut tells me you need to back out the sprocket bolts, get the sprockets so that their "real" marks are at 12:00, secure the sprockets with the IPD tool, then rotate the cams until you hit the combination where the notches are horizontal AND you can insert the bolts.
If what I'm driving at is in fact correct, I don't know if you will be able to correct it with the head in place. You would need to be VERY careful rotating the cams in case a valve were to contact a piston.
(All I get on my computer is a red x for the image I'm trying to insert.)
Chris,
"we" know where the real timing marks are, but Jack doesn't have the plastic belt cover with the notches. He has to go with the whiteout marks for which he only has one reference point in the intake cam - makes things a bit more nebulous.
From the picture, he is really close. Close enough to not have valve interference and let the engine management 'time' itself.
I think his noise is because the exhaust is not bolted down sufficiently. He did use some 'copper' gasket spray which might have left spaces for the exhaust to escape along with combustion noise.
Once he gets a new cam cover to verify timing, he should be in great shape.
Klaus
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
I'm not talking about the static marks that are missing from the plastic cover. I'm talking about the white marks he has painted on the sprockets. They appear to be about 5 or 6 teeth off of the factory scribed marks - both sprockets. Look at his picture again.
Yes, you are right. Look closer and you can see the proper cam marks about 45 degrees back from the white lines. It's hard to make out on the xhaust cam, but it's pretty plain on the intake.
Previous owner probably got everything lined up, found that it was too hard to repl the Tbelt without the 'cover' in place, and made his own marks.
Actually, that might be a good thing to do. Those itty bitty scratches lining up with a notch 1/2 inch away is a pretty poor design. Especially if one is trying to repl the cam gaskets.
Klaus
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
Klaus,
I spent a hour or more re-torquing all the manifold bolts down. Only a few moved at all. You should also know that I removed the entire turbocharger and exhaust manifold to put the engine back together.
All of the manifold studs backed out when I took the head off, and I had to replace several when the manifold nuts welded themselves to the studs. After freeing up and replacing studs, I put all 10 (or so) studs back in, and then installed the manifold gaskets - copper gasket spray on the head-side, naked steel on the manifold-side.
Then I reinstalled just the manifold, tightening the manifold nuts down and later reinstalled the turbo.
The turbo was a nightmare. Especially when I went back through and re-tightened the manifold nuts.
I very much doubt that I have a loose manifold, but there is definitely a problem still.
The 'real' timing marks look pretty good, can't say much for the white-out things.
A leaking exhaust will negatively effect the smooth running of the engine, plus making it louder. The computer will adjust timing and fuel several times during a single crank cycle.
Ha ha, having the CPS off by 180 doesn't help. Never thought of that.
Klaus
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Did you do your Random Act of Kindness today?
This time of day, it might be best to try going one tooth each side on the exhaust cam to see what happens. First, spin them to make sure no interference before you fire up the engine. Then try to see which way solves it.
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If you're not driving it "like its stolen," are you really driving?
I had to take a pit stop to fix a coolant leak on the turbo, before I did that, I was able to adjust the exhaust cam back 1-2 teeth. This moved the source of the exhaust noise from #5 up to the #1 cylinder. I'm going to try and move it one tooth forward this time.
That made no difference unfortunately. I was extremely careful to keep the two cam gears in alignment - laying a steel straight edge across the top three bolts and bottom three bolts of the two cams.
Yet, after putting it all back together, I'm still chugging like an old tractor.
This is crazy. I can't see how it could be so bad.
Could the tractor chugging be caused by something else?
I just read down in your OP, the crank pulley should be between the two not aligned with the bottom one.
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If you're not driving it "like its stolen," are you really driving?
Herm... okay. I think I did it correctly. let me explain.
There are no marks on any of the low notches on the crank., but there are two tiny little notches on the high-points (teeth).
So, imagine this little schematic is my crank gear. It's got a lot of plain teeth, but there are two adjacent teeth that have a tiny notch on the top.
_-_-_V_V_-_-_
Since there are two notches on the "hills" and nothing in the valleys, I aligned the low spot between the two notches to the index mark. So imagine that I aligned it to the low spot between the two "v" on my schematic.
...otherwise, I'd have to pic one or the other little notch.
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