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I am looking for objective opinions on the IPD header pipe. I am rebuilding a B20 engine with B20E head on carbs. I was planning on re-using the IPD pipe I already have, and try to port the exhaust ports in the head appropriately. When I measured and matched the existing ports to the IPD header, I find there is little room for expansion. In fact, I have been told that I am likely to get better flow simply with the original cast iron exhaust manifold. Has anyone some hard data on this?
Thanks
JD
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posted by
someone claiming to be shayne
on
Fri Nov 26 06:17 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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The current offering is just a good replacement for a cracked or broken 4-2-1 manifold if ya can't find one. I have the latest header on the RadioFlyer ('64 220) and it's just fine. No performance gains that I noticed (unless noise means HP), but it fit's perfectly. Does not rub (and I list problems I've seen): upper or lower a-arm, crossmember, floor of vehicle, alternator, or oil filter. Again, it's a perfect fit, and very-pretty, replacement for a difficult-to-find original manifold.
If you have an ipd header from the past (10 or more years?), it probably IS a performance-tuned unit.
A good, performance-enhancing header cannot be had for the price IPD is offering. It is difficult to find folks in the US to build headers for these old push-rod Volvos and keep them affordable.
VPD in New York, and others overseas, offer performance enhancing headers. One should consider the desired header in the recipe when building a motor.
Beast,
Shayne.
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Shayne;
What distinguishes the "old" IPD header from the new generation header? The one I have is probably over well 10 years old, as the car has been on blocks for the past 6. Is there some way to tell which one is which? The header I have looks very similar to the set IPD has in their catalogue with the exception that mine does not have the flat plate connecting all four outlets.
JD
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On the "old" header, the four pipes come together smoothly into a collector that's roughly a foot long, the collector has a 2" outlet and runs parallel to the ground when installed. That was the last of the iPd designed headers.
The next one they sold had a short collector that was angled downwards and (I think, not sure) ended in a flange.
The current one has pipes that sorta lump into a short collector, and the collector has a flange on it.
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posted by
someone claiming to be cameron
on
Thu Dec 2 19:47 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Yep. That 'middle' header, with the angled flange, was made by "Thunderbird." Like the wine (but likely not the same company) it looked the part, sounded the part, but was only worth using if you really really needed something to get you by.
Oh. And like the wine, it interfered with other things that are important to smooth running and easy integration.
Best,
Cameron
Rose City
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Thanks for that Shayne! I've been tempted by the price of the new IPD header, but wasn't sure if it would be a good idea. I'll probably get one soon, as the price is definitely right.
I had problems with mine on my '65 1800... The IPD header I used came off a 122 that I had unfortunately had to scrap. The header is probably early '80s vintage. After finally getting it on the engine in the 1800 (after pulling motor mount bolts so I could push the engine over), the header was in direct conflict with the corners of the upper A-arm. I took the A-arm off, ground down the edges. Also peened in a small dent in the offending header tube. And installed one of them 3rd motor mounts that pushed the motor over a bit. After all that, I was clear by about 1/8".
It's also in conflict with my home made delco conversion, but not so bad that it doesn't work. Just limits adjustability.
No problems anywhere else though, and I've been most impressed with the quality of the unit. That header probably has about 400k worth of exhaust through it between two cars, and no sign of cracking yet.
And its purdy.
Damn I wish I had a 122 just like yours.
-Matt
--
-Matt '70 145s, '65 1800s, '66 122s wagon, others inc. '53 XK120 FHC
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IMHO, the cast manifold with dual downpipes is a tuned system that helps torque and HP in a useful rev range. The 4-into-1 header might start doing some good at 7000 rpm and up. It's not about constant-state flow, it's about timing pulses.
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Phil
I did manage to find a very good cast manifold in my box o' bits. As I am faily new to this (obviously), can you tell me what benefit there might be in installing a well ported head and a 2.25 inch exhaust system, but also install a 1.5 inch manifold? Doesn't that defeat the objective of making the engine breather better? Or are there ways in which I can open up the dimunitive manifold outlet to complement the work done on the head and exhaust system?
Thanks
JD
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The early cast manifolds empty into a single downpipe, and those are not the ones to use. The later ones have two downpipes, and are functionally decent enough 4-2-1 headers.
There are excellent headers available -- see Vintage Performance Developments -- but the one iPd currently sells ain't one of them.
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I'm currently test fitting a new tri-y header from Kirk Racing. The kicker is that it's only going to cost $170, retail. I'll let you know how it works.
There's a pic of it on my project car page for the 142.
http://www.classicmotorsports.net
Per
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posted by
someone claiming to be JayDee24ca
on
Thu Nov 25 05:13 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Thanks Phil; I will start rooting through my parts boxes for a decent cast manifold, I am sure I have one or three somewhere. Too bad, as the headers sure are purty!
JD
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If the headers are purdy... I'd use 'em. But I agree with Phil that you won't notice much difference in performance unless you are *really* running it. They can be a pain in the arse with clearance issues with the upper A-arm, and possibly alternator. 'specially if you have a delco conversion...
--
-Matt '70 145s, '65 1800s, '66 122s wagon, others inc. '53 XK120 FHC
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posted by
someone claiming to be JayDee24ca
on
Thu Nov 25 05:44 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Yeah, I think the clearance issue was the reason the PO had a remote oil filter up by the battery box.
JD
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I had a header on my '66 and it just cleared the Delco alternator and oil filter. Pain in the rear to change the filter and the collector at the bottom afforded me even less ground clearance. I didn't notice any performance increase at all so I went back to stock. You're right, it did look good.
--
Roy Olson
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I've got a 4:1 header on my PV's engine. If it isn't an IPD style one then it looks just like one. I got it used because it came off a PV, and IPD specifically states in their catalog that theirs is 'not intended' for 544 or 240 cars, so I worried about the fit and knew that this one would at least fit. I got a big performance boost when I put it on, *BUT* that was because I also replaced a single downpipe old style cast manifold and replaced the 1 1/4 inch inside diameter system (seriously - and the pipe was about as thick as water pipe too!) with 2 1/4 inch pipe. Dramatically improved the power above 4000 rpm, but I would imagine that if I were to bolt on a double downpipe manifold and hook it to the same system I wouldn't notice any difference.
I'll probably get a 4:2:1 header at some point. I don't know how long this one will last because I've already had to MIG up a couple of small stress cracks on it. But until I need to replace it I'm loath to spend several hundred for a nearly subliminal increase in power.
--
I'm JohnMc, and I approved this message.
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Glad to see that some numbers have finally entered the discussion along with the reality that if the exhaust system ( pipes, bends, mufflers ) are causing a significant flow restriction, then what type a header you put on won't cure it, and may only make it worse. As in everything else in a car engine, all the parts have to be matched to work together properly. Buy a high performance header and and attach it to a stock exhaust system and the result will probably be less power than stock, particualarly in the low RPM range, not because headers always cause a loss of low end power ( we can show the opposite on the dyno ), but because the header is not a match to the rest of the system. Tried to post a comparison photo of
our 2.5 inch tube used in our performance exhausts compared to stock but had a problem uploading it. Will try again later when I have more time.
Unless I missed it, its surprising that dimensions of exhaust pipe have been mentioned, but not one mention of the header dimensions - diameter of primaries, secondaries, collector, lengths of primary, secondary, etc. All of this makes a tremendous difference. We have been offering 3 different sizes of 4 - 2 - 1 headers in order to match the needs of B18/B20 engines from 1800cc stock to 2200cc highly modified. The idea is that a header that will work on one application will not work on another. In general terms, what will help a 100 HP B18 won't help a 160 HP B20, not to mention a 220 HP supercharged engine.
We also offer several different 4 - 1 designs, but the 4 - 2 - 1 type is clearly better for street applications where a broad power band is clearly more important than peak HP.
Looking at the photo of the header mentioned by Per from Kirk Racing, I'm willing to bet anyone $100 that they have no dyno testing to support their design. What is clear from looking at the photo, is that the goal was price, not a performance improvement over stock. It looks a lot like the 4 - 1 design that J.C Whitney used to sell for $50. That's not to say that matched to a properly setup exhaust system it might not show an improvement on someone's engine, especially if it replaces a single down pipe, 1.5 inch design with a better flowing system, but its extremely doubtfull that it will show any improvement over the stock cast dual downpipe design of the later B20s, when matched to similar exhaust systems. Hopefully per will do a dyno comparison so that we will know. I have also offered to send him one of our headers to use in a comparison, as he did on the 122 project car several years ago.
If I can work through some glitches in a new program I am using I will post some comparison photos late tonight.
John
v-performance.com
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True, no dyno testing has been done on this design, yet. Primary length/secondary length/diameters was taken from an another header. It was then matched to Kirk's jig that was used for their older Volvo 4-1. Essentially fitting a tri-y design into the space of the older 4-1 header.
I'll be dynoing it soon against the stock 4-2-1.
My guess is that NO header will be an improvement over the stock 4-2-1 with a stock cylinder head.
Per
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I am not sure of the answer as I have not done that much testing with a stock cylinder head and cam. Your point, I assume, is that if the stock exhaust port is the principal restriction in the exhaust system, then we can't get more exhaust flow and power than the exhaust port will support merely by playing with the header and the rest of the exhaust system. Assuming that is true, there may still be advantages based on tuning with the flow we can get. The ITB cars with essentially the stock exhaust port are getting 150 HP or more at the crank with 4 -1 headers, though not necessarily in a power band appropriate for the street, so it looks to me like improvements in power are possible up to that level with the right exhaust system.
Lets see what the testing shows.
John
V-performance.com
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Hmmm, regarding ITB cars, Marc, (bridgetown142) has a 71 i think that was at one point rebuilt and balanced nicely before he bought it, and it only dynoed at 98 I think... I don't know much about his car, well, i knew more at one point, but can't remember it. I do know that he has MUCH trouble going fast though...
--
Kyle - '68 Volvo 142 w/71 b20b and m40...
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posted by
someone claiming to be shayne
on
Fri Dec 3 07:05 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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What I've noticed on Marc's '71 is that the heads he has available to bolt on are F heads (not E) that have been seriously shaved...seriously.
I don't know (nor do I believe Marc knows) if there was any science or arithmetic used in re-designing them, that is to say; maybe they just scraped a bunch off and bolted 'em on.
I understand there are very strict retrictions that don't allow him to change much.
Beast,
Shayne.
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Now, the ITB cars are also using a very abbreviated exhaust....
I was talking with several ITB 142 drivers, and the number I'm hearing is 120 at the wheels.
That's with:
decked blocks
reworked/tuned/fiddled Djet systems
short/race exhaust
properly cut valves
port matching 1" from manifold interface
Seeing as how they're gaining (over a typical street engine) 2-4 hp not having any sort of real muffler..these numbers aren't particularly impressive.
Anyway, my goal is 115 at the wheels with a programmable FI system, instead of Djet, but without the expensive internals and loud exhaust.
Per
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Per,
Your previous point was:
"My guess is that NO header will be an improvement over the stock 4-2-1 with a stock cylinder head."
My point in mentioning the ITB cars, which get 20 - 30 HP more than a stock engine,
and use a header is that they can get a significant improvement in power without changing the restrictions in the stock head - which are not within the area they are allowed to modify.
If a significan portion of this improvement is through a tuned header and a short, open exhaust, this supports the theory that you can improve the power from a stock engine head/engine through tuning the exhaust system.
John
V-performance.com
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Agreed. I was just commenting that their numbers weren't actually as "otherwordly" as I had imagined...granted that's what's quoted and I haven't really heard what Sam's car puts out at the wheels.
Per
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There are a whole lotta factors in tuning exhaust. One aspect of it is sonic, and depends strictly on the length of the header pipes regardless of how well the ports or rest of the system flows. The sonic stuff is something the Volvo dual-downpipe system does well -- even with the same stock ports and small exhaust tubing with multiple mufflers, power went up about 6% from that change alone. It's not just that the two-pipe section is slightly less restrictive than the older (and larger) single pipe. It's actually tuned.
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