posted by
someone claiming to be Davidws
on
Sat Nov 13 05:58 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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I have a '64 1800 that me and my father restored together. Shes hardly been out on long trips but recently i had to drive her to college. Ive made the trip about 3 times now. On the second trip i started to hear something, i thought it was some sort of ping, but it was so faint i thought it could just be a vibration somewhere. Then on my way back to school, the noise started to get worse. The trip was 5 hours and the noise just grew exponentially. At first, i thought it was coming from up front, like the fan was lose...there wasnt anything i could do about it in the middle of nowhere so i kept going and by the time i got where i was going it was so loud i couldnt tell where it was coming from. The engine idle dropped about 500 rpm and i was using the choke to keep it up where it should be. When i got a chance, i took off the valve cover and inspected stuff...couldnt see anything wrong, oil looked fine- not cooked. The oil level was fine as well. Im working in the parking lot of my university, so without some place to start looking im pretty lost. Please help if you can Thank you!
David Werner
University of Georgia
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posted by
someone claiming to be mjamgb
on
Wed Nov 17 10:18 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Although the others likely have it right...
Do a quick (cold) compression test first to eliminate a holed piston or bent valve. That will save you a few skinned knuckes if the case (but I really hope it is the gear).
Mike!
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If the gear is wonky enough to cause a serious drop in idle speed, the valve timing may be off enough that compression would check bad even with nothing wrong in the valves or pistons. No?
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An even quicker 'compression' test that would rule out something amiss with a cylinder - just pull the coil wire and crank it over. The starter should labor over each compression evenly. You can pretty easily tell if there is a weak cylinder or not doing this. "WhirrWhirrWheeWhirrWhirrWhirrWheeWhirr".. means there is a problem. (Apologies for doing sound effects in a post!). Make sure there isn't a tight valve before doing other checks (old Volvos, unleaded gas, receding exhaust valves get tight and leak).
Then of course there was the old '51 Ford F350 my Dad had growing up. Had about a million miles. And never before or since had such a massive engine bay been so sparesly populated by a little skinny straight 6. When you cranked the engine it just spun around with appearing to labor over compressions at all. Once for fun I did a compression test on it and got numbers varying between 27 and 35. I don't know how it ran but it did, it would start up and run and while it wasn't going to win any races (against anything) it would move on down the road with a heavy load in it.
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I'm JohnMc, and I approved this message.
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I suspect Ron nailed it--a bad timing gear. Something more than just fan noise or a water pump is going on or else the idle wouldn't have dropped. A bad timing gear would throw off the timing and shift the idle. My first thought was a spun bearing--a much larger problem than a timing gear would be!
I don't know how much you know about the engine, but thought it might be helpful to talk you through the process.
To check the timing gear you will need a pretty good set of tools and a day dedicated to the job. You will also need a new gasket set for the water pump, new gasket for the timing gear, and new antifreeze (unless you can capture and re-use the old stuff). Gaskets are pretty cheap, so shouldn't set you back too much. If the timing gear is shot you will need another one, but that should be under $100 if I remember correctly.
First, drain the radiator, remove the hoses, and pull off the radiator. This is easy--just two bolts.
Loosen the alternator/generator and remove the belt.
You may be able to leave the fan and water pump on--I am not sure--but it would be a lot easier to pull them off. You can leave the fan and pulley on the water pump and just take off the pump with them attached.
Now the toughest part-- you have to take off the pulley at the bottom of the engine that is attached to the crankshaft. The problem is the bolt is on tight and the engine will try to turn on you when you attempt to remove the bolt. If you have a standard transmission you just leave it in gear and that will hold the crank steady.
Finally you can take off the cover to the timing gears. In addition to the 10 or so bolts on the front, two of the oil pan bolts go up into the cover--don't forget to pull those off.
You should now be able to see the timing gear. If it is the old fiber gear you will be able to see quickly if that is the problem. Just be sure to line up all the timing marks before you remove it, then put the new one on exactly in the same place.
Good luck and don't hesitate to post again if you have further questions.
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posted by
someone claiming to be SteveW
on
Mon Nov 15 04:40 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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I sounds like you have plenty of advice to consider. The only thing I can add is this:
Make sure the noise is not your water pump. Just grab the fan (with the engine off, of course), and make sure there isn't any play.
If the problem is your timing gears, you don't need to remove the water pump. Getting it back on with the head still on the engine is difficult. You should pull the radiator. Its tough to work in that space with it in place, and you run the chance of damaging the radiator.
You don't really need any special tools unless you need to change the steel gear on the crankshaft. The fiber cam gear can be removed with simple tools. The hardest thing is getting the big nut off the camshaft. Once it is removed, you can get the gear off the camshaft with two screwdrivers used as levers behind the gear.
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Having replaced timing gears both by removing the radiator and not, I'd suggest leaving the radiator in place. Access to the gears is easier by removing it, but then you've got to deal with the radiator and all that coolant that invariably spills all over the place while draining, refilling, etc.
As you mention, it's hard to see so I marked the timing marks with a sharpie before starting so I could tell without a doubt if they were lined up right from my limited vantage point either under or above the area of interest. I always lave a little mirror in my toolbox for shenanigans like this. This photo is of a set of steel gears so yours will look different.
To block the gears from turning while loosening and tightening nuts I jammed rags in the teeth. Leaving it in gear is scary because you likely have the front jacked up. Turning nuts means turning wheels which could roll the car off the stands in the front. The crank pully is generally not tight enough for this to be a concern but the cam nut usually is. By the way, that nut fits a, I believe, 36 mm socket.
Getting the fiber gear off can be a real pain and I have never managed to do it without breaking it into pieces. Be sure to cover the little opening into the oil pan to keep stuff out of there. Also, this is a good time to remove the oiler nozzle and give it a cleaning.
Below is a photo of the last timing gear I pulled. I was lucky enough that I was in the garage when the car finally quit running completely. Note the lach of several teeth.
Lastly, a failing gear sounds terrible and makes your heart sink but it's honestly not that big of a deal. I wonder how many cars have been abandoned due to a rod knock that only needed a new timing gear.
--
Justin 66 122E
Read vclassics tech!
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This summer my PV's engine *did* spin a rod bearing, and while nasty sounding, it didn't sound half as bad as the bad cam gear did several years prior.
If you can fit a gear puller on the cam gear with the radiator still in then by all means do so.
Be careful whoen pulling the gear to not knock the cam backwards. For example chocking the cam gear out and whacking on the cam nose. I did this once on my 1800 and it slid backwards and knocked out the steel plug on the back side of the engine. Inside the bellhousing, behind the flywheel. *groan* Ah well, not a total loss, I put it all back together with a new clutch kit.
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I'm JohnMc, and I approved this message.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Davidws
on
Sat Nov 13 06:03 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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The noise sounds like a clank, metal on metal i would say. Like i said, in the small stages it sounded like a ping, and it still sort of does but im not sure how it could have gotten so loud!
Thanks
David
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Does it correspond to road speed or engine speed? Is it the same with the engine hot and cold, or only hot?
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posted by
someone claiming to be Davidws
on
Sat Nov 13 06:16 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Yes, it absolutely does correspond to engine speed. At idle its a steady clang. as you speed up it gets a little erradic then at about 3000-3500 rpm it goes away. As far as i can tell its the same hot or cold.
David
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I'd bet on a failing cam timing gear and/or cam retaining plate.
This can be fixed with the engine in the car, although the radiator will need to come out.
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I'll second that. Symptoms sound exaclty like what happened when the fiber portion of the cam gear separated from the steel hub on my PV's original motor. At idle, horrible knocking clatter - sort of like a large diesel engine. Perhaps if I had a mechanic's stethoscope I could have narrowed it down to coming from underneath the timing cover, but it was impossible to pin down by ear otherwise. I initially thought that something horrible had happened and that all of the rods were knocking. But when revved up the sound would gradually fade and the motor would be completely quiet from about 2500 - 3000 rpm on up. At idle the load on the cam is very uneven - as it rotates over each lobe it is first pushed back as the valve opens, then forward as the lobe goes past center and the valve pushed it down. This back and forth torque makes any slack in the system very apparent. As the rpms rise the valves don't rebound as hard and the oil pump produces more drag, placing the cam under a constant pull.
Just swapping the timing gear isn't a very hard task. Swapping the cam too makes it much more involved, but I wouldn't do that unless you have reason to think it might be going out too (measure the valve lift on each cylinder, if they aren't all the same then a new cam is probably in your near future). Take out the radiator to provide some room to work. You'll need a gear puller to get the cam gear off the cam (and if the fiber portion has come off the hub my condolences).
--
I'm JohnMc, and I approved this message.
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Perhaps your fan is hitting something. Is the clanging coming from the front of the engine?
Joe M
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posted by
someone claiming to be Davidws
on
Sat Nov 13 08:33 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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This was one of my first thoughts, but i checked the clearance around the fan and it seems fine, i also checked the fan and it was not loose. Thanks
David
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Better check the water pump. A check of the water level will soom tell if the pump is going bad.
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After more thought the frist thing to do is take off the fan belt and start it up.If the noise goes away you will know that the proplem is the genator, water pump, or air cond,or lower pully. I expect it is not but it will elimate the quick and easy problems.
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Is your battery weak? This sounds a lot like the alarm has been activated. I believe that to enable (disable) it, you get in, lock the doors, and try the restart. This has happened to me just before my battery went south.
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