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Hey Guys,
I took another look at the '86 240 wagon this evening. If you remember from my previous post, I'm having trouble getting the car to start. It turns over just fine, and has spark and fuel. None of the dash warning lights are coming on, but I do have power to fuse 13. Someone said that this fuse powers the lights. I also checked the connections on the back of the instrument cluster and they seem fine. Still no warning lights when the key is on. I did notice that the exciter wire going to the alternator has lost most all of its insulation. The oil pressure warning light wire is also broken into right by the alternator. Could this be related to my no start problem? I really suspect the engine bay wiring harness. BTW, the fuel injection fuse in fine, and the timing belt seems fine (ie cam rotates when the engine is cranked).
I'd really appreciate any ideas on this. I'm going nuts trying to figure it out.
Dave
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Don't be too quick in ruling out a fuel supply problem. I had a similar no start problem last year in an 89 740. I could hear the main pump running for a few seconds, even ran some fuel into a jar at the connection to the rail. I spent a week tracking down and elimating other possible problems.
Finally got a hint from somebody here on the board, sprayed some carb cleaner into one of the vac hose fittings on the throttle body, and the engine fired and ran for a second or two.
Turned out to be the main fuel pump. I didn't have a fuel pressure guage available, but I'm guessing that the pump just wasn't pumping enough.
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I just tried spraying some starting fluid in the throttle body. It still doesn't start. I also checked the alignment marks on the timing gear this morning. With the crank pulley on zero degrees, the cam gear mark lines up with the mark on the rear timing cover, and the distributor rotor points to the #1 plug wire. Is this right?
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Dave,
The warning lights seemed like a good clue, but in reviewing those threads that Art provided, you said many times that "NONE of the dash lights are coming on". Then later (10-12 to Art) you say, "I forgot to mention that the bulb out light and the overdrive light both still come on like they normally did." Today it's again, "Still no warning lights when the key is on".
Which is it? It makes a big difference when trying to isolate the problem. There's no point in tracing power to the panel if ANY warning lights come on, because power IS there. But since the ground paths for various lights are different, you may have harness issues (especially engine mounts were recently changed, possibly straining some wiring). BTW, Warning Light power comes straight from Ignition Switch #15 (no fuse).
Try connecting the small red Alternator D+ wire to ground. You should get 4 Warning Lights thru that ground path—Batt, Parking Brake, Brake Failure, and Bulb Out. Let us know what happens.
Hearing the fuel pump for a second is also suspect. Was this when cranking? Or just with Key On II?. You should not hear it until the ECU gets an "Ignition OK" signal when cranking.
Bruce
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Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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Hi Bruce,
I checked the wagon again a few minutes ago and tried grounding the small red wire to the alternator. The lights do in fact come on when I ground this wire. So, does this indicate that the engine bay wiring is at fault? The fuel pump runs after I crank the engine over for a second. I wouldn't have disturbed the wiring, but the broken engine mount made it impossible to change the oil filter, plus the fan was contacting the shroud in a few places.
Thanks,
Dave
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"tried grounding the small red wire to the alternator. The lights do in fact come on when I ground this wire."
But when this wire is hooked up to the alt the lights don't come on? If so then check the short stiff blue ground wire that goes from the alt casing to the alt mounting bracket. (The alt needs to be grounded to work as the rubber bushings in its mount isolates it.)
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb and M46 trans
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I . . . tried grounding the small red wire to the alternator. The lights do in fact come on when I ground this wire.
The 4 lights I listed? Any more? With power there, the Oil Light should have also come on thru it's own ground at the block switch. And the OD light, if it's manual and in 4th gear. At least you proved that power is there at the warning lights, so we can forget that as a symptom.
BTW, those 4 lights I asked about should ALSO come on at KP II with that red wire installed on the alternator (along with the Oil light). If they don't, you also have an alternator problem.
"So, does this indicate that the engine bay wiring is at fault?"
I don't see it indicating anything that specific yet. I just wanted to verify (or rule out) the "no warning lights" symptom.
Fuel pump when cranking sounds right, and verifies ignition.
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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Bruce,
The oil light does not come on when I ground the small red wire, but all of the others that you listed do. I checked the ground on the alternator, and it's fine. From what you tell me, this means that the alternator is bad?? Even if it is, the car should still start.
Cheers,
Dave
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No, the alternator itself isn't necessarily bad. But those 4 lights failing to light at Key On (with red wire on D+) indicates an alternator (related) problem. It's not your main problem, but I wanted you to be aware of it.
With Key On, power is applied to ALL the Warning lights. Those that already have a ground path—the 4 I mentioned, plus the Oil light, and the OD On light (IF it's a manual tran and it's in 4th gear)—should all light. I just mention that for future reference.
I don't have any suggestions for your no-start at this time, unless it's to start with the basics. I know you saw the camshaft turn, but I would make sure the Crank and Cam agree at 0°, and that the dist rotor is about 1/4" to the right of the 0° notch on the dist body. The belt may have jumped timing.
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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Bruce,
I pulled the plugs again this evening and they aren't wet with fuel. They have a slight fuel odor on them. Shouldn't there be lots of accumulated fuel in there since I've been turning the engine over repeatedly? Maybe the injectors aren't firing.
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Bruce,
I'll pull the upper timing belt cover tomorrow and check to see if everything lines up. Does oil getting onto the timing belt effect it at all? I know that the front cam seal is leaking. What could cause the belt to jump teeth?
Cheers,
Dave
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Oil on the timing belt is bad as it soaks into the belt and softens it. Thus one day while driving along and possibly using some light engine braking the teeth may shear off, leaving you stranded (though the warning lights will all come on when this happens).
To recap your warning light problem.
In your leading post you say, " None of the dash warning lights are coming on,"
In a following post you say, "tried grounding the small red wire to the alternator. The lights do in fact come on when I ground this wire."
This would indicate a grounding problem. You checked the alt ground wire and it appears to be okay.
Could it be the ground strap connections to the engine block and cam cover are bad? (That is if when testing the red wire you grounded it to the body so didn't test for engine block ground.)
(Apologies to lucid for answering post directed at him.)
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb and M46 trans
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I checked the timing gear alignment and everything lines up. The distributor rotor points to the #1 plug wire while on zero degrees. Is this right? The belt is soaked with oil, but I don't think that's the problem since the marks line up OK. No doubt I'll fix the oil leak and change the belt after I get the car running again. The engine ground straps are fine, I even tried grounding the block to the body to make sure.
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The alt light should come on when the key is in position II, engine not started. If it doesn't come on and the ground wire (blue) and exciter wire(red) are properly hooked up to the alt, then it may be the alt.
I don't know what path the current follows through the alt. But it may be brushes or diodes. Pull the alt and take it to a place which will check it for free. Check the brushes first to see if they are too short.
Regardless, I think the engine should start without a functioning alt. So there is another problem.
I've lost track, but if you're the person who replaced the engine mounts, check the thick red wire that wraps around under the front of the engine going from the starter to the alt. If it is damged and grounding, besides adversely effecting the charging system, you may also have a fire hazard.
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb and M46 trans
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What about the distributor? Could it be bad??
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What about the distributor? Could it be bad??
I doubt it, since at the top you said,
"It turns over just fine, and has spark and fuel".
Something is missing here. If you would tell us how you verified good spark and fuel, we might get a clue.
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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Bruce,
I checked for spark using one of the plugs and laying it on the block while I had someone turn the engine over. I thought there was spark when I tried this, but I'm going to double check. Is this the best way to check?
Thanks,
Dave
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I'll check the wire from the alternator to the starter and see if it's OK. Yeah, I agree the car should start without a working alternator. The alternator that's on it now hasn't been there long ( used one from another 240).
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Thanks Art. I'm going to check the wires a bit more today and maybe even solder in some replacements depending on how bad the rest of the harness is. Has anyone delt with the guy from California that sells used harnesses on Ebay? His prices seem OK.
Cheers,
Dave
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I agree that you have a bad harness. The damage at the alternator red wire and the oil light are the first signs, as they have the harshest life.
However, each can be taped up or sleeved and last for a while longer. If you can get a harness for a reasonable price, you might just want to go that route. Note that the dealer gets $400 or so for it!!! Any 86-88 engine harness is a direct fit, and the 85 works with some mods.
I would insulate that small red alternator wire, and see if it's well enough to start. I ran a 1986 244 with a bad harness for over 50K miles, and never replaced it (never messed with it either, I knew it was bad!) On mine, the red wire and the oil light wire had been cut and re-routed to the grey 8-wire connector at the firewall, around the right side of the engine compartment. Worked well for a long time.
The thick harness going to the ignition module in the RF fender could have some damage too, and you can slit the sleeving on it carefully and inspect. If it's crusty, give up and get a wiring harness. If it's ok in there, tape it back up and look for other trouble.
Note that lately, I've found a fuel pump relay full of water in a friend's 87 244, and numerous bad 25A fuseholders in engine bays of various 240s. This is the white fuseholder behind the battery, and it supplies main power to the fuel computer and the fuel pumps. Get a new one- they're just $3 from Volvo or FCP Groton.
Good luck!
--
Rob Bareiss, New London CT ::: '87 244DL/M47- 234K, '82 245T/M46-182K, '89 244DL/AW70- 212K Not too distant past: 86 244DL 215K, 87 244DL 239K, 88 744GLE 233K, 88 244GL 147K, 91 244 183K
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Thanks for the reply Rob. I sometimes see a used harness on Ebay from a later model car that didn't have the wiring problems that the earlier cars did. That sounds like the easiest fix to me. Were there any big changes for the 89-93's wiring?
Cheers,
Dave
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There are significant changes related to the changeover from LH-Jetronic 2.2 injection for the 85-88 cars, to the LH-2.4 in the 89-up cars.
Most connectors to sensors changed, but primarily the ignition pickup went from being a hall sensor at the distributor, to the crank sensor mounted over the bell housing, counting holes on the flywheel.
The ignition computer also disappears from the RF fender and a separate "power stage" is used to actually fire the coil.
Lots of changes and very little that could be used- HOWEVER- the alternator and oil light wiring would be usable from the 89-up cars to splice in a few wires to fix the older car.
--
Rob Bareiss, New London CT ::: '87 244DL/M47- 234K, '82 245T/M46-182K, '89 244DL/AW70- 212K Not too distant past: 86 244DL 215K, 87 244DL 239K, 88 744GLE 233K, 88 244GL 147K, 91 244 183K
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Looks like you have to rewire or get a replacement harness.
Since you know that the harness is wasted, disconnect the battery and slice open the harness to examine the individual wires.
Rewiring is easy enough to do. For suggestions see
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/?id=678119
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb and M46 trans
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Thanks for the suggestion. I think I'll have a go at replacing the bad wires. I have a feeling that's what the problem is.
Cheers,
Dave
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