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Heres the scoop, I inherited a non-running 240 wagon, the engine harness was frayed in many places, I acquired a good used one, installed it, now car will not start. No power at the In-Tank fuse. I tried new relay, no luck, I did the jumper wire trick bypassing the fuel pump relay, both pumps are making noise. Both relays do nothing no clicking or anything. All harness connectors are connected. How do I go about determaning if it is a wiring issue, or a bad ignition switch. As I just replaced the harness I suspect it is a wiring issue, Where should I start. Help save the 240 I'm loosing hope in Minneapolis.Dave-ed
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Both relays do nothing no clicking or anything.
The Main relay (the one with armature most accessable) should close when the Key is turned to ON (II). The ECU does it by grounding the coil, which should already have voltage from the 25 amp blade fuse near the ignition coil.
That fuse is a prime suspect.
Until the Main relay activates properly, putting voltage to the AMM and ECU, there's not much point in guessing any further, IMO.
But just so you know, the other (Fuel) relay closes to run pumps etc. when the ECU senses an "Ignition OK" signal from the ICU, during cranking.
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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I had problems with my new main fuel pump because I failed to tighten down its ground under the back seat ... just a thought...
you probably need to check all the wiring connectors that have to do with fuel (and their grounds) to make sure you attached them correctly. Did your new wiring include the wiring from the fuse box to the relays and the pumps? Do you have a wiring diagram to identify the possible culprits?
are you getting spark? maybe something got miswired to your ignition system?
jack
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'86 245, 266,000 mi., '87 760T 140,000 mi. - Columbus, Ohio
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I have spark, the car runs fine on starting fluid. No fuel pump noises, I suspected the pump relay, installed new relay $60 still not working. I
by passed relay both fuel pumps operate ? I am not getting power to the fuse in the fuse pannel. I had replaced just the engine harness as it was in poor condition. I have a wiring diagram i am not sure how to use it as a tool? I think If I had a better understanding of how the circuit operates, and what to look for in disgnosing it I could make some sence of it.. I will check the various connectors. Thanks for your valeuable advice, David...
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I am not getting power to the fuse in the fuse pannel
Which fuse? Don't make us guess please.
Did you examine the 25 amp fuse I mentioned above? It's the MAIN fuse in your Fuel circuit (exceptingr #4 for the tank pump, a minor player), and a known suspect. It feeds the relay AND the pumps, among other things.
If you jumpered fuses 4 and 6 to "bypass" the relay (again, details please), then you also bypassed that 25 amp fuse, and it's known-to-get-crappy holder. So with a new relay and the same problem, that fuse is even more likely, IMO.
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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AAHHAA.. I played with the car for a while and got the relay to click one time, I thoroughly examined the fuse and holder the way it was attached to the fender was causing it to have a poor connection I repaired that. Now the relay is working fine. Car still will not start ? It runs on starting fluid for a few seconds, I feel the relay and hear the pump going. I am not out of the woods yet? Would a few messed up vacuum wires keep it from starting, I unplugged a few in the process of replacing the harness. Does anyone have any idea where the vacuum source comes from that goes to the fuel pressure regulator ?
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Dave, I apologize if this sounds tense, but you are not answering my specific questions and thus keeping me guessing as to exactly what your conditions are. So we are IMO, stretching this thread farther than we might otherwise. I'll try again:
>>"I am not getting power to the fuse in the fuse pannel"
?Which fuse? Don't make us guess please.
>>>"IF you jumpered fuses 4 and 6 to "bypass" the relay (again, details please)"
?How did you "bypass" the fuel relay? There is more than one way. I (still) need to know your method.
"Now the relay is working fine... I feel the relay and hear the pump..."
?What does "fine mean"? I'm not yet sure we have the same definition.
?Do you have the white cover off the relay?
a) Does the Main relay close with key on and stay closed? Is that what you "feel"?
b) Does the Fuel relay close while cranking? For as long as you're cranking?
c) Do you feel the Fuel relay too? Did you you actually watched it with relay cover off?
d) Do you "hear the pump" while cranking?, for as long as you'r cranking?
(not easy to hear when cranking, for me anyway.)
e) Have you pulled some plugs to see if they are wet with unburned fuel?
Hunch tip:
1 - Take the white cover off the fuel relay and use folded paper to hold both armatures closed
(pumps ahould run as soon as fuel relay is closed—even with Key Off, Voltage from 25 amp fuse is there all the time.)
2 - Try starting with both relay armatures held closed
3 - Let us know what happens. (Still failing points to possible low voltage from 25 amp fuse—did you look for fuse corrosion?)
"Does anyone have any idea where the vacuum source comes from that goes to the fuel pressure regulator ?"
It comes from a nipple on the front (forward) side of the throttle body. It should be connected, but is probably not your problem, IMO. Being off will cause a leaner fuel mix and raise the fuel pressure by a few pounds (as when accellerating and vacuum goes away momentarily).
P.S. What wiring diagram do you have?
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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I will do better at providing speciffics. I now have power to the blade fuse that is in the harness near the battery there was a poor connection at the battery cable end. I do not always have power at the fuel pump in tank fuse in the fuse block, but suspect it should only have power when the relay sends power there am I correct? I took the white cover off of the fuel pump relay. The relay that is on the left side when looking down at the relay closes while cranking and stays closed while cranking. The relay on the right side did not move while cranking, or turning the key to the on, or off positions ? I do not hear the pump while cranking the engine. The fuel pumps ran while both relays were held closed with paper. I herd a faint pumping sound in the tank and herd a loud pumping sound in the car with some intermittant gurgling noises in the fuel tank, or the fuel lines. The fuel tank is at less than 1/4. With both of the relays held closed with paper, the car didn't start, The spark plugs were dry, no signs of fuel. (I have a Mitchel on demand wiring diagram on disc) Thanks for all of your assistance, advice and patience dave-ed..
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A) I now have power TO the blade fuse that is in the harness near the battery there was a poor connection at the battery cable end.
>>What about FROM the 25 amp fuse?<<
B) I do not always have power at the fuel pump in tank fuse in the fuse block, but suspect it should only have power when the relay sends power there am I correct?
>>Correct, the Fuel relay feeds fuse 4 hot/input contact<<
C) I took the white cover off of the fuel pump relay. The relay that is on the left side (FUEL relay) when looking down at the relay closes while cranking and stays closed while cranking.
>> Was this with other (MAIN) relay held closed with paper? If not, I don't know how the FUEL relay could operate, since the MAIN didn't work in "D" below.
>> Fuel relay coil gets voltage direct from Battery via Ign Sw<<
>> Main relay coil gets voltage from 25 amp fuse.<<
>>>> 25 amp fuse/holder contacts/wiring are still the prime suspects<
D) The relay on the right side (MAIN) did not move while cranking, or turning the key to the on, or off positions ? I do not hear the pump while cranking
>>No Main relay means no ECU, no Fuel relay, no nuttin<< (Can't explain how you got the Fuel relay when cranking, in "C" above
>>>> Again, I suspect low/no/intermittent voltage FROM the 25 amp fuse <<
>> OR, ECU is not providing MAIN coil ground at terminal 86/1<<
>> Do you have a digital meter or a 12V test light?? (86/1 should have 12v thru coil, then go to 0V with Key ON)
>> If possible, also check for LOW VOLTAGE at relay terminal 30 while cranking.
E) The fuel pumps ran while both relays were held closed with paper. I herd a faint pumping sound in the tank and herd a loud pumping sound in the car with some intermittant noises in the fuel tank, or the fuel lines. The fuel tank is at less than 1/4.
>>Ignore fuel noises for now, most likely normal<<
F) With both of the relays held closed with paper, the car didn't start, ... no signs of fuel.
>> Can't explain NO START, except possible Low/No voltage from 25 amp fuse to relay terminal 30<<
>> And when cranking, the available voltage would be even lower, especially after several no-start tries
>>May have been enough to run pumps (weakly?) as in "E", but 25 amp fuse must also supply 12V to other places, i.e.:
-- AMM and ECU
--O2 sensor heater
--injectors
--Idle Air Control
I have a Mitchel on demand wiring diagram on disc...
>> I have an older one on paper. Print yours and call me if you want to. Phone 315-893-7872 till 10PM
One more time—How did you "bypass" the fuel relay making the car run (as mentioned in earlier post)? There is more than one way and knowing your method could help the diagnosis.
HINT OF THE DAY—Block the MAIN relay closed, jumper fuse 4 and 6 (left side contacts) and try starting. If it runs, make it short, since the jumper is powring the whole fuel system.
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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Thanks Bruce!! I have 12 volts to and from the 25 amp blade fuse. The car ran a few seconds but only with starting fluid sprayed in the throtle body. I did this origionally before checking the relays to determine if it was a fuel or a spark issue. With the white cover off I can see the main relay actuate with the ignition switch on, the fuel pump relay does not move at all, the pump does not come on while cranking. I added a few gallons of fuel to the tank. I then tried the "Hint" and put a piece of paper to hold the main relay closed, and used a jumper wire on the left side of the fuse block from the 4 to the 6 terminal, I cranked the engine, I could hear the louder pump while cranking the engine, but it didn't start. I tried the starting fluid trick with the relay bypassed It ran for a few seconds. I checked with my test light on the 86/1 terminal and it does not have 12 volts with ignition on, or off. That voltage should come through the coil? I have 4 wires connected the coil 2 blue on one terminal, and an orange and yellow wire and a larger white wire on the other terminal? I have voltage at the coil. I appreciate all of your advice, Thanks David...
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1 - I have 12 volts to and from the 25 amp blade fuse.
I still suspect low voltage when cranking. Doesn't take much to show statically on a meter or Test Light.
But now I wonder if you are on the right relay????, based on your comment below—
2 - "I have 4 wires connected the coil 2 blue on one terminal, and an orange and yellow wire and a larger white wire on the other terminal? I have voltage at the coil".
>> I can't figure this out (which color on which terminal)? "The" coil? We know there are 2 coils inside the white FI relay cover. And it sounds nothing like the FI relay, which has the following 6 wires:
30 Red from 25 amp fuse. Feeds Main coil + side, and both Main and Fuel relay armatures
86/1 Yel/Blk to Main relay Ground side from ECU 21 . Should see +12v thru coil, then Gnd with Key On
85 Red/Blk from Key On. Feeds +12 to Fuel coil + side (also to ECU pin 18)
86/2 Blue/Green to Fuel relay Ground side from ECU 17. Should see +12v thru coil, till ECU sees ignition is working.
87/1 Orange and Brown from Main relay output (2 wires). Orange to AMM 5 and Brown to ECU pin 9
87/2 Yellow from Fuel relay output to Fuse 4 for pumps, and to a common point for injectors, O2 sensor, IAC valve.
I'll respond below to your other comments, as they apply to the Fuel Injection relay, but we need to talk about terminals and wire colors. You lost me at #2 above.
3 -"I checked with my test light on the 86/1 terminal and it does not have 12 volts with ignition on, or off. That voltage should come through the coil?
>>Yes, until the other side is grounded (at Key On)—AND it should come from the 25 AMP FUSE, into terminal 30. Which I suggested you check yesterday. Do you have a Voltmeter? Under $20 at Radio Shack is good enough. Test Light at the fuse is OK, but measuring where it's used is better.
4 - "With the white cover off I can see the main relay actuate with the ignition switch on, the fuel pump relay does not move at all, the pump does not come on while cranking."
>> White cover sounds right, but what's up in #2 above? And so does the Main relay. But why didn't your Test Light show light when you probed 86/1 (#3 above)? The Light should have been On, until the Key was turned On and the relay was grounded and "actuated". (Maybe a bad ground on the Test Light?)
We know that the Fuel relay should actuate when cranking. Again, low voltage from 25 amp fuse is is a possibility. But we are just guessing if you don't have a voltmeter
5 - "... tried the "Hint" and put a piece of paper to hold the main relay closed, and used a jumper wire on the left side of the fuse block from the 4 to the 6 terminal, I cranked the engine, I could hear the louder pump while cranking the engine, but it didn't start."
>> That has me stopped.<< At least until we figure out what relay you were describing in #2 above, and you have a basic digital VOM (Volt-Ohm Meter).
And ONCE more—how DID you "bypass relay" as mentioned in your 2nd post on Wednesday?
P.S. A little "white space" in your posts would give my lookers a break. Or are paragraphs a thing of the past (like me)?
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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I am sorry I threw you off when I mentioned the wires that go to the ignition "Coil"... "I have 4 wires connected the coil 2 blue on one terminal, and an orange and yellow wire and a larger white wire on the other terminal? I have voltage at the coil". I mentioned that information as I had disconnected 2 wires from the coil when I installed the engine wiring harness and may not have them in the correct positions?
I am working at the relay with the 30, 86/1 86/2 85 87/1 87/1 terminals labled on the relay. I purchased a digital volt Ohm Meter. The #30 terminal has 12 volts while cranking. when I probed 86/1 terminal at the connector I get no voltage. I made sure I had a good ground and tried again with a test light, No voltage.
From one of the earlier posts, I bypassed the fuel relay by using a jumper wire from the fuse block at the left side 4 and 6 terminals, just as you discussed. Thanks DAvid...
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David,
Yes, the "coil" reference threw me off. The Ignition coil terminals are numbered. The 2 blue wires go on #15. The "larger" (maybe a whitish sleeve over a white/red wire?) white goes on #1. I never saw an Orange/Yellow wire anywhere that I can recall. I suggest you remove it for now and tape the end.
Glad to hear you have a meter The 12 volts at #30 sounds good, but I still think you should see that 12v at the other side of the Main relay coil 86/1 until the Key is turned On.
And I'm still confused from Thursday when you said: "The relay that is on the left side when looking down at the relay closes while cranking and stays closed while cranking" The "left side" with the terminals pointing TOWARDS YOU is the FUEL relay, not the Main as I assumed. I wasn't explicit early-on, and we may have gone off track there. if you were instead holding the relay with coils toward you.
Holding the uncovered relay with PC board down and terminals toward you, the FUEL relay is on the Left, MAIN relay is on the right. You might mark them on the PC board. Heres the sequence of what should happen with the Main relay (before cranking):
1) Terminal 30 is hot all the time (from 25 amp fuse). (OK)
2) 12V at 30 should go thru the main relay coil and be present on 86/1 <(are you sure it doesn't?)<
3) The Key is turned on.
4) The ECU grounds main relay 86/1, which should go from 12v to 0v as the coil is energized.
5) The Main relay armature should then actuate and stay closed.
If we can't get thru that list and pick the Main relay, it would seem either the relay or the 86/1 connector contact junction is bad. If it does pick, we can go on to the more common Fuel relay issues. (Yay!)
Does your meter read resistance/continuity? And have an audible indicator for the lowest measuring range? (nice but not essential)
If the Main relay fails to pick, as above, I'd unplug the relay and probe from 86/1 (in the plug) to a good ground. I'd expect a "No Continuity" or "Out of Range" indication, which should then go to "0 ohms" (and/or buzz ) when the Key is turned ON, assuming the ECU behaves as expected. Try this and let me know please.
Bruce
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Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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Sorry for the delay, I took a short vacation. I checked the items as you described.
A) The Terminal 30 is hot all the time (from the 25 amp fuse).
B) 12V is available at #30 and is present on 86/1 terminal. 12 volts go through the relay and are present at 86/1.
C) The Key is turned on. The 86/1 terminal goes from 12v to 0v as you described the coil is energized.
D) The Main relay actuates and stays closed.
I then went on to check for resistance, I unplugged the relay and probed the 86/1 connector, connected the other lead on the meter to a good ground as you discussed. It displayed "No Continuity" or "Out of Range" indication on the meter with the key off. I turned the key on... The meter did not go to 0 ohms, it remained "out of range", I checked to make sure I had good ground and good connection at the connector, it remained "Out of Range." Does this mean that the ECU is defective? Thanks for walking me through this, David..
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I checked the items as you described.
A) The Terminal 30 is hot all the time (from the 25 amp fuse).
B) 12V is available at #30 and is present on 86/1 terminal. 12 volts go through the relay and are present at 86/1.
C) The Key is turned on. The 86/1 terminal goes from 12v to 0v as you described the coil is energized.
D) The Main relay actuates and stays closed.
That's good, but a bit confusing because on Mon Oct 11 02:33 EST 2004 you said. "when I probed 86/1 terminal at the connector I get no voltage". These conflicting results make for slow going. I have to keep retracing the thread to recall what is and what isn't.
Also, I should have suggested the final step—making sure that voltage is available on 87/1, the Output terminal. (the armature could be closing, but provide no output due to bad contacts)
At least we now know the Main Relay works properly, as controlled by the ECU, and which one it is for sure. The next part, however..."I then went on to check for resistance, I unplugged the relay and probed the 86/1 connector ."....is irrelevant I'm afraid , and thus confusing you, because I suggested that business only if the Main relay failed to pick (see my last post). And you proved that it does pick properly.
But it did show that I was wrong in thinking you would get those ECU responses on the "open" 86/1 wire. I don't know much about electronics , but suspect that the ECU circuit can't be tested "open loop", so to speak, and probably needs the load of the relay coil to respond like I though it would.
Please try the same test on the Fuel Relay, as follows:
A) 12V at terminal 85 with Key On, and reading thru coil to 86/2
B) 86/2 loses 12V when grounded by ECU during engine cranking.
C) If A + B, then 12V should be present at Output terminal 87/2 while cranking
D) If C, then 12V should be present at Fuse 4 (left contact) and pumps should run
Let us know how this test goes, but I'm still thinking about the harness replacement, and that "Orange/Yellow" Coil wire you mentioned on last week. Was that part of the new harness? Or maybe an overlooked ground connection. Did you tape it off for now as I suggested? It's not "stock".
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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A)Thanks... To clairify: When I originaly probed 86/1 terminal at the connector I got no voltage. This was because, I was probing the connector without the relay plugged in. I realized my mistake after reading your last post.
B)The wire that is attached to the coil is actually red with a white stripe, it is some what faded and dirty and appeared to be orange and yellow.Sorry for the confusion. That wire was never disconnected from the coil when I replaced the harness. The harness came with two wires that connect to the coil, a Blue wire and a fat white wire. I believe the red and white wire to be stock as it goes into another harnesses that goes through the fire wall.
I have it connected to the coil. The coil has two blue wires on one terminal, and the red with white stripe, and a fat white wire on the other terminal.
c) I tested the relay as described with it plugged into the connector: Terminal 85 has 12 voltage with the key on, and reads through the coil to 86/2 terminal.
d) terminal 86/2 loses 12 volts when grounded by the ECU during cranking..It drops down to 9 volts and then returns to 12volts when I stopped cranking. It didn't totally loose voltage. I checked twice making sure I had good connections. I stopped there.... Thanks for your dedication, David
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Hi Dave,
We're making progress. That 9V on the Fuel relay coil ground (86/2) is the battery voltage dropping lower due to the cranking load—and the absence of the ECU-provided ground. According to Art Benstein, "It should be around 0.5V when the ECU sends the "ground". I didn't suggest you observe the armature, but am sure it didn't move.
An Ignition failure could cause this symptom, but since it runs on starting fluid, we'll assume that's OK. That leaves the ECU itself, or the connection from ECU to Fuel rely 86/2, OR something ECU-related in the harness you installed, (after which you said "now it won't run").
Two suggestions:
1a) Give us more info on the harness — from a reliable source? did you get any instructions with it? what connections did you make? how many ground points", etc.
1b) If you have access to a Bentley 240 manual (recommended, to go with your new meter), compare your intake manifold area ground points to page 390-5, Fig. 10. (Fig. 11 is for 87 and later)
2) Temporarily substitute for the missing ECU ground with the free end of a grounded wire jammed into the back of the relay harness plug at 86/2 so it makes contact with the Blue/Green wire terminal . This should cause the fuel relay armature to close (and the Fuel Pumps to run) as soon as you turn the Key On, and send 12V to coil terminal 85.
But I'm not optimistic, based on 10-7, The fuel pumps ran while both relays were held closed with paper.
That's good, but...With both of the relays held closed with paper, the car didn't start
That's NOT good.. and later, I...used a jumper wire on the left side of the fuse block from the 4 to the 6 terminal, I cranked the engine, I could hear the louder pump ...., but it didn't start
Again, NG.
It's looking like more than a basic fuel issue, possibly something ECU-related (ie, no injector control) due to the harness replacement. Hope the battery holds up a while longer.
Bruce
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Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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1a) I got the harness from a reputable Volvo dismantler, it is a newer dealer replacement harness from a wrecked 86 volvo. I didn't receive instructions with it. I marked the connectors and layed both harnesses on the floor and labled the harness that I was going to install in the car. All the connectors matched, I didn't have to re-work any of the connectors.
I haven't been able to locate the Bently Manual but refered to the diagrams on the CD and the manual I received from the library. The harness has three ground points that connect to the intake manifold. I cleaned up all of the points where the ground wires bolted to the manifold. I also checked the ground strap that connects to the alternator to make sure that it had clean connections.
I substituted the missing ECU ground with the free end of a grounded wire placed into the back of the relay harness plug at 86/2 so it makes contact with the Blue/Green wire terminal.The fuel relay closed, the fuel pumps ran when the key was turned on and we got 12 volts to terminal 85. I have checked all of the harness connectors they are clean and tight.
A little background information: I got the car and it wouldn't start it just clicked. I looked at the old harness it had a britle wires and a few wires that had the copper wires showing, and a few that were broken completely. The insulation was flaking off in many places. I thought this was the reason that the car wouldn't start, I replaced the harness and the positive battery cable end as it was corroded. The car cranks but will not start. Thanks again, David..
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Hi Dave,
Welcome back. First a couple of comments on your post... Then some guesswork...
"The harness has three ground points that connect to the intake manifold"
Slightly puzzling, as the Bentley shows only two manifold ground points for the '86 (3 for '87 on). Not a big deal, I suppose. Wish I had an '86 here to compare to.
"I substituted the missing ECU ground with the free end of a grounded wire placed into the back of the relay harness plug at 86/2 so it makes contact with the Blue/Green wire terminal.The fuel relay closed, the fuel pumps ran when the key was turned on..."
Did you try starting at that point? For now I must assume that you did try—but still a no-start, right?
Try starting again, as above (if you still have some battery life) then check for unburned fuel on the plugs, to see if the ECU is firing the injectors or not. You can hear them click too, using something like a thin screwdriver as a stethoscope between your ear and an injector.
A - If no fuel is getting to the plugs, even with ECU Fuel relay ground forced by a ground jumper, and pumps running while cranking, then we will assume there is still a fuel-related problem. Possibly ECU.
B - However, if fuel is (now) reaching the plugs, but still no start, the question is "Why isn't that fuel being fired? When it did fire the starting fluid?
Some guesses—
1) The spark is there, but weak? Put meter on Coil terminal #15 (verify terminal 15) two Blue wires, check voltage when cranking. How much does it drop below 12V? (or whatever battery shows with no load).
If it drops much below 9 or 10 volts, run a jumper from Battery positive to Coil 15 and check again while cranking. If not significantly better, get battery charged and try again. Remember to remove jumper wire.
2) Basic timing may be off. I think the more volitile starting fluid might tolerate this—and/or a weak spark— and fire sporadically.
• Rotate Crankshaft to 0°, #1 TDC using 15/16" socket on pulley bolt. Crank pulley/harmonic balancer 0° grooves on pulley edges must align with the 0° vertical reference mark about an inch long on the lower timing belt cover.
• The Camshaft should also have its 0° references lined up at this time.. I think your b230 has a notch in back edge of drive sprocket that should align with a mark molded into the rear timing belt cover (remove phillips head screw to check). My 940 b230 lacks this easy-to-see mark, so I'm guessing here.
• The Distributor rotor (centerline) should now be about 5/16" past (CW rotation) the 0° reference notch for #1 cylinder in the outer edge of the dist body. To see the notch, remove the rotor, then the plastic dust shield, then replace the rotor for reference to the notch. The rotor should be be past the notch, if the base timing has previously been set correctly to the nominal 12°±2° advance.
So with your car's unknown history, it's back to basics — Fuel to the cylinders, and a good spark — at the right time.
--
Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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Back at it...
A) The car ran on starting fluid three days ago. But did not start when relay was grounded at the relay harness plug at 86/2. It made contact with the Blue/Green wire terminal the pumps ran car didn't start.
b) I pulled a few spark plugs out they were dry, no moisture, no signs of unburned fuel the plugs were quite worn with a .60 gap the manual suggested .30.. I will be buying new plugs tomorrow.
c) I couldn't tell by listening if the injectors were firing, so I connected a digital volt meter to the injector connector. I got no voltage reading with the key on, or while cranking the engine. I am guessing that I should have got a voltage reading of some kind at the connector ? This Seems similar in nature to a "Crank, Spark, but no fire" issue mentioned earlier this year on the brickboard THANKS for your support David..
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"I connected a digital volt meter to the injector connector. I got no voltage reading with the key on, or while cranking the engine .
I am guessing that I should have got a voltage reading of some kind at the connector ?"
Yes—but it depends on how you used the meter. When the Fuel relay closes (running the pumps) it also puts 12V on all 4 injectors (the pins fed by Yellow-Red wires). The ECU fires the injectors by Grounding the other pins (Green-White wires).
If you put the leads across the 2 pins of an injector—and the ECU (for whatever reason) fails to provide the ground—I don't think you will read anything. Because that G-W wire is basically not connected to anything until the ECU grounds it.
Try again, but with meter + on a Y-R wire injector pin, and meter - on one of those manifold grounds. You could try first statically, with that added ground wire on relay 86/2, and Key ON. But for "real world" you should see the 12V there when cranking.
If you don't see 12V at injectors (Fuel relay closed), let us know and we'll try some other places.
If it had not fired on Starting Fluid. I'd be leaning toward an Ignition problem now (which in itself will stop Fuel operation—or have I said that already?) New plugs will be a good thing anyhow.
Did/can you check basic Crank-Cam-Distributor timing as I suggested at item #2 in last post?
Bruce
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Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Dave-ed
on
Mon Nov 1 15:07 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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I charged the battery and checked for voltage at the injectors as you described using the ground points as the ground and the positive to the injector YR connector and pin, they have 12 volts, with the added ground wire on relay 86/2, but only when cranking. I also checked the basic cam-distributor timming and it is right on the mark. Where should we go frpm here? Thanks David..
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Dave,
It may not be relevant, but injector voltage "only when cranking" puzzles me. Are you sure that external ground to 86/2 was secure? Because it should (and did) allow voltage to the pumps with just "Key On", which should also put voltage to the injectors as part of normal Fuel relay operation (in our "diagnostic" situation).
Also you say, "the basic cam-distributor timming...is right on the mark". Did you start with the Crank Pulley at 0° for #1 cylinder as I suggested? Because I think it is possible for the belt to strip or jump teeth at the Crank sprocket (where oiling is worse and belt contact minimal), and thus the Cam & Dist could be in sync with each other, but not with the piston — IF you just got the Cam 0° marks lined up, and then checked only the dist.
This may seem like I'm grasping at straws (and I'm close to that), but your response leaves me guessing.
Bruce
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Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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I apologise Bruce, I made a mistake in reporting that the injectors had voltage only when cranking. They have voltage when the fuel pumps have voltage when the terminal on the relay is grounded. The timming it is at 0 Degrees and the rotor matches up correctly with the #1 plug wire. I charged the battery installed the new plugs, still No-Go. I removed the fuel line on the fuel rail and actuated the fuel pump for a few seconds to see if we had fuel up to the rail, it pumped lots of fuel out. I did not have a way to measure the fuel pressure though. Thanks again for helping me wotk through this, David..
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Hi Dave, we may be close now. This thread is way too long now, so the following is my suggestion for starting a new thread, with the Subject line reading:
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"Volvo/Chrysler ICU pin 8 Signal to LH ECU pin 1 Missing?" 200 1986
No-Start background:
1) Car not running when acquired, bad harness replaced, wouldn't start
2) Ignition works (fires on starting fluid)
3) Pumps run when missing ECU ground is hard-wired to the Fuel Relay 86/2
4) Injectors get Voltage from Fuel Relay, but do not operate under ECU control
5) Current assumption is that the ICU pin 8 signal is not getting to ECU pin 1, as needed for ECU Fuel Relay ground and RPM signal for ECU Injector grounding
Questions:
1) Does anyone know the physical ICU-to-ECU path or routing for this signal?
2) Are there any intermediate connectors between ICU and ECU? If so, where?
3) Can a DVM be used to back-probe ICU pin 8 for a pulse when cranking? What voltage scale? What to look for?
4) Any precautions about the ICU connector (removal)?
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Modify the above to suit yourself. The stuff below is just conversation to end this thread and start you looking for that Gray signal wire.
Art Benstein clued me about the ICU signal being an injector timing pulse, as well as Fuel Relay control. (I should have known.) You may just have an unplugged or bad connector. This is based on a crude drawing in an obscure manual that shows the signal going from the ICU, around the front of the engine (maybe under the crank pulley?), then to a "connector under manifold", apparently about 3/4 of the way back towards the firewall. No indication of where it goes from there (wherever "there" is) to get to the ECU.
It will be a Gray wire, nd you may have to slice some harness insulation open to find and follow it to the mystery connector (under manifold) and beyond. I'd make it my first effort.
Regarding Question 3—Bentley p241-14 says ECU pin 1 should have +12 Battery voltage with Key ON. I don't know if this voltage comes from the ICU or the ECU. But this is something to explore later—finding and following that Gray wire comes first, IMO.
Bruce
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Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.
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