so i'm about ready to give up on my 244 and its brakes. here's what i've done:
replaced both front calipers, all the pads all around, turned the rotors, replaced master cylinder, and bled the brakes about 4 times.

I've still got no brakes. when the car is off, it seems like the brakes are building up pressure. when the car is on, the piston pushes out (i saw this when the MC was off) but there appears to be no pressure in the brake system. no bubbles in the tube when i'm bleeding it and now for the first time since i started the brake job the brake failure light is on. and there are no visible leaks.

...wha's goin on?

Does pumping the brakes make it firm up? If so, you've got air in your lines. Do the brakes firm up after pumping and then sink to the floor? If so, your replacement MC is bad. It's not unheard of.

I second this thought. After getting numerous bad replacement parts from my local parts shops, I started buying only genuine Volvo master cylinders from the dealer. No problems since.

Let me say this once again, with emphasis: DO NOT TAKE SHORTCUTS OR BUY CHEAP REPLACEMENT PARTS FOR YOUR BRAKES. The results can be disastrous.
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80 262C Coupe- (FSO black, M46, original) 82 244GLT- (auto)

If your pedal is droppping to the floor, you probably have air in the MC. Bleeding the calipers won't get the air in the MC out. For a quick fix (if this is the problem) see

http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=853321
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1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb and M46 trans

...the infamous Three Hose Bleeder Jar. Ditch that vacuum pump and make a three hose bleeder jar, so you can bleed all three bleeder screws on each front caliper at the same time, like it's supposed to be done.

No one mentions checking axial rotor runout with a dial indicator after mounting new rotors, either. Even the smallest piece of debris on that mating surface where the rotor bolts to the hub can easily translate into .015" of axial runout.
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80 262C Coupe- (FSO black, M46, original) 82 244GLT- (auto)

"the infamous Three Hose Bleeder Jar. Ditch that vacuum pump and make a three hose bleeder jar, so you can bleed all three bleeder screws on each front caliper at the same time, like it's supposed to be done."

I agree with ditching the vacuum pump. But as far as I know, that 3-hose bleeding method went out years ago. "Like it's supposed to be done"? According to who? I've seen it in one 1976 240 Volvo Greenbook, but not in any later manuals. Or earlier for that matter.

We are dealing with 2 separate systems with the 3 front bleeders. What's the benefit of bleeding both systems at once? It's cumbersome and messy. I prefer the sequence I learned from 140 manual, which is still used in Bentley, Haynes, etc.
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Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.

Oh, so I guess both my Haynes and Chilton's books are wrong then, as well as the old guy who used to be a dealer mechanic who taught me to do it this way. And, after owning four 200 series cars, and working on countless other friends' bricks all these years, and getting all the air out of their brake systems, I still don't have the hang of it. (sarcasm off). Seriously, this is the way I have always done it, both the manuals I have say to do it this way, and you never see me here trying to figure out why my brakes are spongy. Mind you these manuals BOTH show photos OF A 240 being bled this way, not a picture of some Chevy with a single bleeder line attached and generic instructions cut and pasted like so much of the quality documentation floating around these days.

"But as far as I know, that 3-hose bleeding method went out years ago." I have two different manuals that say to bleed 'em this way. Why don't YOU back up your own statemwent, with a lil bit of proof.... this went out years ago, according to whom? If you want to TRY to discredit me on this one, you're going to have to do a lot better. Neither of the manuals tell me to check axial runout either, but I do it because I know how brakes work and I know it's the right way to do it.

Cumbersome and messy??? psshaw, get a clue, open all three nipples at once and be done with it. Drill three holes in the top of a mason jar and add three nice long lengths of clear tubing. All the fluid lands in the jar unless you're just plain a klutz.
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80 262C Coupe- (FSO black, M46, original) 82 244GLT- (auto)

Dear Coupe',
I apologize for rattling your cage, but your, "like it's supposed to be done" rattled mine. In my experience, it's not "supposed to be done" that way in any manual later than the 89 Chilton. I'd really like to know where that 3-hose method came from, why it was introduced, and where it went. I may post it as a question just to satisfy my curiosity. But I must admit that it's not in my '76 green book like I thought. And I know I should have said it "looks" cumbersome and messy, since I never really tried it.

Going back through my (9) 240 books (starting with a Clymer manual from 1982) it looks like the "3-Hose front bleed" came in around 1980 (although there were no relevant brake changes around that time) and was illustrated by a Volvo factory photo(?). The latest mention of it (that I can find) is in the 1989 Chilton, where the brake info is basically copied from the1983 edition, thus carrying the 3-Hose method up to '89.

But Haynes dropped it after their 1986 260 manual. And it's no longer shown in the 2 latest Haynes 240 books (1990, 1994), nor in the 1993 Bentley 240 manual. That's why I said it "went out years ago". I still think that's true, as far as most 240 do-it-yourselfers are concerned..

In my opinion, the Clymer and Chilton manuals are historically interesting, but aren't considered "authorities" by most experienced 240 fixers.( Although I did find the Haynes 1974 thru 1990 manual helpful before the Bentley came out in 1993.) But the Haynes now gathers dust now, while my Bentley is falling apart from use.

I guess you must know the 240 really well though — fixing them all these years using Chilton and Haynes manuals. But I feel pretty brake savvy too, having been bleeding that dual-diagonal system since 1967, when I bought my only new Volvo. Except for the warning switch, the 140 system is essentially the same as 240.

Like your axial runout tip, I'll close with one too — You can prevent Master Cylinder Brake Fluid Loss from any/all open brake line(s) on 240s by blocking the brake pedal depressed an inch or two before you start. Disconnect the battery to keep brake lights off. I've been using this trick on 240s for about 9 years now—ever since I learned it from an independent Volvo specialist. I made a wooden prop that hooks to the bottom edge of the pedal and bears against the 240 seat adjuster bar. It's handy for checking brake lights too.

P.S. The later 2 Haynes manuals and the Bentley DO address rotor runout in the Brake Specs. If you decide to update, I'd recommend the Bentley.
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Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.

No wonder it's my mantra; most all my cars are from this era. Two '76 260 wagons, a '80 coupe, and a '82 244T. Overall, I've been happily bricking along for the past 18 years courtesy of fine Swedish engineering and mostly my own handywork. Thanks for the bibliography, you named both the editions I own. You've obviously done your homework and I applaud you for that. Maybe we can explore some minor discrepancies in bleed order between the two manuals I own. As for the fluid loss tip, yet another to add to my bag of tricks and aggravation savers.

All I know is the horror from when friends chase air all over the car, and then I have to come help them and the three hose trick has always worked (except when i started out with a bad Raybestos master cylinder, but that's another thread to be titled "Cheap Brake Parts from Hell"). I also find it works real fast when doing a fluid flush, since both circuits are active. IMO, it saves me a lot of extra work. Costs me a grip of fluid, though.

Today's Extra Tip for noobs working on their 240 brakes:
DOT4 fluid, people. DOT4, not DOT3, but DOT4.
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80 262C Coupe- (FSO black, M46, original) 82 244GLT- (auto)

Reading your previous thread I don't see that you answered some of the basic questions from others that can help us pinpoint your problem. The big question: is the pedal "soft" and does it sink toward the floor when you apply heavy brake pressure? If so then your replacement MC is no good -was it new/used/re-built? If not, then when you push the pads out and apply brake pressure, are you telling us that none of the caliper pistons advance? It's hard to imagine that you could bleed the system (especially without a pressure bleeder) and not have the pistons advancing unless the MC seals (or bore) are quite damaged as suggested by a previous poster.

Having your brake failure light come on after bleeding is not uncommon -it just means that the pressure in the two independent circuits was unequal when you stepped heavily on the pedal at some point. Sometimes the switch will reset by itself once all the air is out of both systems and there are no leaks, but in your case I expect you'll need to reset the switch at the brake line junction box down below the MC by removing the switch and stepping on the brake to re-center the internal tapered piston. You can worry about that after you isolate your fundamental problem(s). FYI, unless you have ABS, the independent circuits are configured as overlapping triangles -each circuit going to one piston of both front calipers and one rear caliper. If both circuits are completely malfunctioning then your problem is almost certainly at or ahead of the junction box.
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Dave -not to be confused with a real expert

The Brake failure light says there is an imbalance between the 2 systems. Did you bleed in the recommended sequence? Another possibility id that your front calipers have mismatched halves (explanation below). There have ben at least 2 cases of this on the board in the past year.

You aren't telling the year of your car, so I'm guessing it has 4-piston Girlings, not ABS.

MISMATCHED CALIPER HALVES

1 — In the Girling 4-piston calipers, the upper two piston chambers basically form an inverted U, with ONE common bleeder at the highest point.
The lower two piston chambers form an upright U, with bleeders at each of the TWO high points.

2 — Rebuilders sometimes get the INNER and OUTER caliper halves calipers mismatched. (i.e. The Left Side INNER half, where the lines attach, will have a Right Side OUTER half paired to it — but that OUTER half will be upside down.

3 — During the original assembly, Girling distinctly marks the bottom of each caliper half with a "dimple" mark next to the joint. So a mark on the TOP of an OUTER caliper half means a mismatch.

4 — Such a caliper will have:
A - No fluid path to the Upper-Outer cylinder
B - No way to bleed the Lower-Outer cylinder

What appears to be the normal Outside piston bleeder actually leads upward to a dead end, at what should be a lower piston chamber.

And the (misplaced) Lower-Outer chamber has no bleed path except down and then up to the Inside bleeder. Not good.

Here's a pic of the Failure Valve (courtesy of Randy Starkie)
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Bruce Young
'93 940-NA (current) — 240s (one V8) — 140s — 122s — since '63.

it's an 89

the caliper is matched...i had learned that back when i started it because the first one i got was mismatched. the MC was bench-bled and then i bled brakes with a hand vacuum pump...but the MC had been empty for a day while the car was sitting with no caliper in my garage

When replacing the master cyl, some mfg. reccomend bench bleeding the master cyl prior to installing. I am not sure if this just keeps from introducing air into the system or if it has to do with getting the fluid to flow back in after depressing the piston. Also ...... did you bleed the rear brakes even though you did not have them apart as far as the hyd. system ?
The brake falure light comes on due to the switch in the system that shows unequal pressure in the system from front to rear. If you have the dual master cyl (dual resivours means seperate system for front and rear) you have probably bled the fronts (or rears) and built pressure in the side that was not being bled causing the switch to trip in that direction. Sometimes they can be re-centered by bleeding the oppisite side , if you know which side is causing it and this will re-center the switch. If all else fails, bleed the entire system good, get the brakes working and replace the switch.
It sounds like you still have air in the system somewhere.
Dennis

Did you bleed the master cyl itself?
This should be done for each line from the cyl, at the connect point for the line to the master cyl. If there's any air in the master, it will take lots and lots of bleeding and still may never fully bleed out both cyl's. This is best done by a pressure bleeder. If you did the pedal bleed when there was air in the new master, there's a good chance you may have damaged the new master cyl.
btw, you shouldn't turn Volvo rotors. At the very least, a new cheap aftermarket rotor for $25 would be better.
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'89 245 Sportwagon, '04 V70 2.5T Sportwagon