posted by
someone claiming to be Mike
on
Wed Sep 15 14:05 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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I have a 1980 and 1989 240 non-turbo and would like to know how to place the wires for a remote starter to perform diagnostic work. The instructions do not specifically address Volvos. Do I disconnect anything? Do I put one wire on the positive terminal of the starter solenoid and the ground the other? Also, how do I shut off the ignition when I'm done?
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I made a remote starter once out of a spanner. I can't remember what I was doing, but it can't have been any part of the electrical system, because I hadn't taken the negative lead off the batter (cos I'm stoopid). Anyway, I must have shorted out something on the starter leads, cos the car kicked over while I was working on the motor. As if that didn't give me a big enough fright, the car was in gear at the time, and drove into my leg.
Fortunately it didn't actually start, or I would have been run over by my own car.
I've got more careful about removing the negative earth now.
--
Drive it like you hate it
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On my '81 240, I hook one clip to the big wire on the starter solenoid (on the starter) and the other one to the small wire on the starter solenoid which is controlled by the switch in the start position. You can then crank the engine whether the key is on or off, but it will only start if the key is in the ON (run) position. It is easily reached from above the engine, but you'll get your hands and arm greasy.
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Mike, I believe both of your cars have a 1/4" spade connector near the very center of the firewall above the end of the cam cover, coming from a blue or blue/yellow wire, I think, which serves as the remote starter connection. Just run 12V from the battery to that terminal and away she cranks. If you want it to run, you'll have to first put the key in position II.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
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Art -
You responded to my post on problems after installing a new wiring harness.
Is it possible to create a circuit that energizes the ignition and the starter motor when the key is switched on and keeps the starter engaged while the engine is running even if the ignition switch is turned off.
The Haynes manual refers to a remote starter lead on my 81 240. I've eliminated the fuel pump relay and ignition switch so am wondering if a circuit is being created through this lead and the starter solenoid somehow.
The new harness has a blue/red wire that connects to a solid light blue wire going into the firewall.
Any thoughts or clues?
Thanks!
Andy --
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Sorry, Andy, all I have are more questions!
How are the starter terminals wired, i.e. what wires are connected to terminal 50 and what appears on terminal 16?
The blue/red in the engine harness has me baffled. Where does it go? All the underhood wiring I see in '81 ignition circuit diagrams (15) is blue.
Certainly if starter circuits at 50 (blue/yellow) and 16 (brown) short together, you'll have the same symptom plaguing those who haven't yet changed the harness-- continued cranking/running with the key off.
What engine? 81 year has a lot of choices.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
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Art - thanks for the detailed reply. To your questions:
On the starter solenoid blue/yellow is on 50 and solid brown is on 15.
The new harness uses blue/red to the aux air valve (and CPR I think) and also connects to light blue coming from the firewall.
B21F engine (non turbo)
How does the fuel pump relay complete both ignition and starter circuits once 12 volts is put on terminal 50 and then removed? Car starts and runs normally(but briefly) if relay or fuse is removed.
Can a bad coil do this?
Really appreciate your help! Andy --
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>On the starter solenoid blue/yellow is on 50 and solid brown is on 15.
OK, though my book says "16".
>The new harness uses blue/red to the aux air valve (and CPR I think) and also connects to light blue coming from the firewall.
Light blue agrees with the map as the feed from the fuel pump relay terminal 87a. Is your fuel pump relay the correct one? 3523639? (Help Lucid!)
Book has aux valve and cpr wiring as blue, not blue/red. Right harness? Maybe a change?
>B21F engine (non turbo)
Not B21F-MPG (computerized ignition) right?
>How does the fuel pump relay complete both ignition and starter circuits once 12 volts is put on terminal 50 and then removed? Car starts and runs normally(but briefly) if relay or fuse is removed.
Fuel pump relay should only supply fuel pumps (87) yellow/red, and aux valve and CPR (87a) blue. I'm now unclear on the symptom-- I've been thinking the symptom was cranking after switch off. But it is really no run after crank, but "run" during crank? What relay are you removing; which fuse?
>Can a bad coil do this?
Depends on details of symptom. If it doesn't run after cranking stops, coil may be too weak to operate with ballast in series.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
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Art - see my responses below **
>On the starter solenoid blue/yellow is on 50 and solid brown is on 15.
OK, though my book says "16".
** This is the brown wire coming connecting the coil to the starter solenoid.
Light blue agrees with the map as the feed from the fuel pump relay terminal 87a. Is your fuel pump relay the correct one? 3523639? (Help Lucid!)
** Yes this is the fuel pump relay that I am using - have a spare and it
** does the same thing.
Book has aux valve and cpr wiring as blue, not blue/red. Right harness? Maybe a change?
** Definitely blue/red and black. The old harness has a different color.
Not B21F-MPG (computerized ignition) right?
** My car does have computerized ignition - no points
Fuel pump relay should only supply fuel pumps (87) yellow/red, and aux valve and CPR (87a) blue. I'm now unclear on the symptom-- I've been thinking the symptom was cranking after switch off. But it is really no run after crank, but "run" during crank? What relay are you removing; which fuse?
** Fuel pump relay numbered above and fuse #7 16A
** Symptoms with fuel pump relay and fuse in place:
**
** 1. Turn key to first position past "off" position.
** 2. Starter turns and engine starts and runs
** 3. Starter remains engaged and spinning during idle
** 4. Turning key to "off" and removing has no further effect
** 5. Must remove negative batter cable to kill starter and fuel pump
** 6. With relay or fuse removed - the ignition switch operates normally
** 7. Car will start and run briefly - then quit due to lack of fuel
>Can a bad coil do this?
Depends on details of symptom. If it doesn't run after cranking stops, coil may be too weak to operate with ballast in series.
** Car starts and runs fine if I jump pins 30 and 87 with relay removed.
** Though the jumper wire gets pretty warm.
** Thanks for your patience and advice.
** Andy --
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Yikes, Andy. Pull the 50 wire off of the starter. Still start? The only thing that should ever connect to in an 81 is the spring loaded key position III! Sure does sound like that light blue wire is somehow shorted to the blue/yellow wire. That's what I'd look for if it doesn't start after pulling the 50.
If it still starts with that wire off, you need to double check those starter terminals or pull the solenoid for a look-see. Easy to test first. with the blue/yellow wire not connected, try sending 12V to terminal 16. Nothing should happen.
>** 1. Turn key to first position past "off" position.
>** 2. Starter turns and engine starts and runs
>** 3. Starter remains engaged and spinning during idle
In #1 above, you mean accessory, marked "I" or ignition marked "II"?
>** My car does have computerized ignition - no points
Computerized ignition has a three-wire "hall-effect" distributor (B21F-MPG). Breakerless uses a two-wire reluctor distributor (B21F). Neither has points. Just wanted to be using the right page in the diagram book.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
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Art -
Lots more testing and a few more clues. I used a jumper wire to put 12v on terminal 50 and to measure current from the blue/yellow wire going to terminal 50.
1. 12v to 50 w/ engine harness plugged in - engine starts and quits
2. 12v to 50 w/ engine harness unplugged - starter spins engine, no start
3. 12v is on fuses 6-10 constantly regardless of key position
4. 12v is on pin 30 at fuel pump relay constantly
5. 12v is on blue/yellow (50) wire briefly (when fuel pressure achieved) when
key turned to ignition position II then again on position III
6. 12v on red wire coming from ignition II w/ harness unplugged
7. 12v on blue/yellow wire coming from ignition III w/ harness unplugged
The car has a 2 wire distributor.
Clearly current intended for the fuel pump is finding its way onto the blue/yellow (50) and I'm trying to determine how that is possible. This occurs even with the CPR, Aux Air Valve and cold injector unplugged.
These results would appear to eliminate the starter solenoid, though I did leave the brown wire connected to the solenoid and the coil through all testing scenarios - if that has any bearing.
This is a brand new harness - am beginning to wonder if I have the right one?
Thanks again for helping me with the unfolding saga...
Best,
Andy --
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Wrong harness??
The different color wiring blue vs blue/red would make me begin to wonder too--
>1. 12v to 50 w/ engine harness plugged in - engine starts and quits
Where was key?
>2. 12v to 50 w/ engine harness unplugged - starter spins engine, no start
Good - that means fuel pump relay doesn't see pulses.
>3. 12v is on fuses 6-10 constantly regardless of key position
Those fuses come directly from the battery.
>4. 12v is on pin 30 at fuel pump relay constantly
It should. It is wired to fuse 7.
>5. 12v is on blue/yellow (50) wire briefly (when fuel pressure achieved) when
key turned to ignition position II then again on position III
Not good. Means your fuel pump relay is supplying the starter. But you knew that, you're wondering where the connection is.
Could you trace the wiring at the thermo-time switch (TTS) and cold start injector (CS)? It is not enough to disconnect the CS from the harness; you'll need to trace the wiring here. For your 81, the blue/yellow should appear on one terminal of the CS and one terminal of the TTS. A white wire should supply the switched ground from the TTS to the CS. If you have that blue/red wire there...
>6. 12v on red wire coming from ignition II w/ harness unplugged
Which red wire - the one for the alternator tickler? D61?
>7. 12v on blue/yellow wire coming from ignition III w/ harness unplugged
Key switch gives you that, so its OK.
Keep plugging away on that blue/red wire; where does it go in the engine harness. You're close now.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
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Potentially another clue - disconnected light blue and red/white wire leading to ICU and this takes the fuel pump 12v off (50) when key is in position II.
Taking coil out of series also does the same thing.
>1. 12v to 50 w/ engine harness plugged in - engine starts and quits
Where was key?
** Not in ignition at all. Symptoms same with/without switch
Could you trace the wiring at the thermo-time switch (TTS) and cold start injector (CS)? It is not enough to disconnect the CS from the harness; you'll need to trace the wiring here. For your 81, the blue/yellow should appear on one terminal of the CS and one terminal of the TTS. A white wire should supply the switched ground from the TTS to the CS. If you have that blue/red wire there...
** Blue/yellow and white running to CS/TTS and blue/red and black to Aux Air
** and CPR. Blue/red connects to light blue at firewall harness connector.
>6. 12v on red wire coming from ignition II w/ harness unplugged
Which red wire - the one for the alternator tickler? D61?
** Don't know - it's the only red wire coming into the engine harness from
** the firewall side.
Keep plugging away on that blue/red wire; where does it go in the engine harness. You're close now.
** Thanks for the encouragement - sure do hope so...
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posted by
someone claiming to be art
on
Mon Sep 20 04:38 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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>Potentially another clue - disconnected light blue and red/white wire leading >to ICU and this takes the fuel pump 12v off (50) when key is in position II.
>Taking coil out of series also does the same thing.
But doing any of that would also prevent the fuel pump relay from receiving the pulsed ignition signal that operates it...
How about pulling the red/blue wire's pin out of the firewall harness plug. You might could then dismiss the idea the harness is mis-matched to the application through the wiring to the aux air and CPR. If the starter still operates, you might then try again with terminal 87b released from the fuel pump relay socket-- eliminating all but the fuel pump circuitry and fuse 5 wiring. Pull the cover from the fuel pump relay: does operating the contact manually cause the starter to crank?
No one else is helping; would you rather continue working on this off list? Click on the envelope icon from one of my previous posts where I was logged in.
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"If you want it to run, you'll have to first put the key in position II."
Art,
Does your remote starter have heavy gauge wires? The reason I ask is that I got one of these just the other day, but was disappointed when reading the manual. It said that the remote was only designed for cranking the engine when testing/adjusting, and that actually starting the engine might destroy it (the remote).
I found the term "Remote Starter" being more than just a little bit misleading after reading this. But as mine was very cheap, it may not be representative.
Erling.
--
My 240 Page
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posted by
someone claiming to be art
on
Thu Sep 16 09:52 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Hi Erling,
Did you know the way you love your 240 is the ideal many of us strive for? To seek to know every nook of its construction, the reason for every design and maintain it as new? But that we could reach back in time and get one new, or have the opportunity to inherit or purchase one so beautifully cared for!
I was aware of some commercial product years ago made to allow cranking without having an assistant behind the wheel. I presume it was just a switch, cable and clip ends to attach at the solenoid or where convenient. When I saw the subject of this thread, I thought it would be about radio remote starters-- clickers that do more than just unlock the doors. (I knew someone who installed the predecessors of these in black Cadillacs for well-off Chicago folk in the 60's)
Mine is just a convenience tool made from an old trunk release button and a length of 18-gauge (good for maybe 5 amperes roughly) lamp cord. Now that I have only Volvos to work on, I took the alligator clip from one of the ends and substituted a spade terminal to mate with the test point on the firewall. Not something I drag out often. I can't imagine how one could be destroyed- it completes the same circuit that is completed by the ignition switch by a real live assistant.
For a while, I also used it to operate the fuel pumps for FI troubleshooting. But I tired of needing the second alligator clip I'd previously cut off and needing one hand to hold the button down, so made another using a fog-light rocker switch instead. Anyone who doesn't find this work the utmost joy (or gets paid for it) would think these gadgets and the time spent on them silly.
Art Benstein near Baltimore
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The ignition will also be energized by the connection between the solenoid and the ballast resistor.
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posted by
someone claiming to be art
on
Thu Sep 16 09:23 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Good call on the '80 model Mike has- and a safety issue too if you weren't expecting the car to have spark during cranking. He might want to pull the coil primary wire to avoid that.
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