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Since a few days now my 1952 PV444DS is on the road again since August 2002. The original engine, gearbox and rear axle have been replaced by a B20F, M40 and 544 rear axle. Disc brakes have been installed as well.
The wheels were widened 1” and shod with 165-15 tires. An IPD bar was installed at the front and Bilstein shocks were mounted front and rear. The results don’t make me very enthusiastic and especially the roadholding is something I would like to improve a good deal further, because I find the car still too sensitive for cross winds and unstable on uneven road surfaces. Now I could go to 185 or even 205 tyres and 6” rims perhaps, but will it help sufficiently or do I want the impossible, I ask myself. Would it for instance be beneficial in any way to replace the complete front axle by one from a 120, 140 or even 240? Or should I lower the the car and fit progressive springs? Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Belinda
on
Thu Jun 3 18:22 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Excellent that your car is back on the road Ü
No idea how to improve the road-holding, as you say. All I know is my 444 feels great in turns (IPD sway bar?) and squirrely on the straights (steering box needs adjustment?), so I know what you mean...
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posted by
someone claiming to be mjamgb
on
Tue Jun 1 12:58 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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For my money, I would rebuild the king-pins and replace all the suspension bushes. Adjust the steering box a little if you have room to do so but as another poster stated, it is easy to screw it up by over-adjusting it (also a little scary on that first test drive when the steering won't turn past center and you can't avoid your neighbor's nice new cadillac. Not that I would have any experience or anything ;)
I am surprised at the post saying that the semi-shimmies were solved by a sway bar. As Spock would say "Illogical." Not to put him down but I suspect he tightened up some other things along the way (like, reduced some play in the front end with the brackets/links).
I drove a VW Westy for a loooong time. When the speed limit was still 55 I would snuggle up behing them and let them "tow" me along. Of course the buffeting was very tiresome and on occasion the trucker didn't want to play and would do things like sway around, brake or go 75 (hah, in MY VW???). In that instance, the buffeting was very bad and we went though steering bushes and ball joints like candy... saw a set and they were SCARY.
What's the point? Oh, yeah, see to the suspension bits first and I betcha the handling will improve dramatically.
Save the sway bar for when you want to canyon carve.
Mike!
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How is it illogical? Prior to the installation of the sway bars you could push and pull sideways on the car on the drip rail and it would easily go several inches side to side. With them on front and rear it is very firm side to side. Nothing to do with the steering, the car was just being pushed on the sides by wind gusts trailing off the semis and being physically rocked side to side.
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posted by
someone claiming to be mjamgb
on
Tue Jun 8 05:06 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Then the condition being described was misunderstood by yours truly.
I interpreted "unstable" as difficult to control or feeling dis-connected from the road/wheels. Apparently an added measure of body roll was intended. As I was commenting on the suspension and steering (which should not be affected in a lateral motion by a properly designed and installed sway-bar) "illogical" is absolutely the appropriate word.
Since you meant the body roll was better controlled, then of course the anti-sway bar would control such motion.
A separation of the characteristics was made in my head, no intent to flame was present.
Mike!
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My 544 shook so bad when I first drove it that the steering wheel came off in my hands. New Kumho 165/75 tires and a balancing helped somewhat. After having the wheels _rebalanced_ the car will go up to about 80 mph before I get scared that something might fall off. The funny thing was that both balancing jobs were done at the same place. Apparently the first balancing was not nearly as good as the second.
IPD sway bars added more pleasure to driving the car than anything else done so far (tires, wheel balance, shocks, rebuilt carbs, paint, stereo . . .). There is no question that the car is less disturbed at highway speeds by wind buffeting. However, driving in heavy storms requires a white knuckled grip on the steering wheel.
I don't have trouble driving the 544 on rough roads. The car was designed before there were many good roads. Mine does need some new bushings and clunks when driven over pot holes or speed bumps but I don't feel a loss of control.
Perhaps upgrading the shocks, tires and sway bar have overburdened your springs and/or accentuated any bushing shortcomings. Weren't some cracked upper A arms discovered on some of these 40 - 50 year old cars?
Joe in WV
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As someone else has pointed out crosswind instability is largely down to steering. Check the steering box. DON'T overadjust it, it will wreck it in short order. The steering box has a high spot in the centre of the worm, it must only be adjusted in the straight ahead position, never try to adjust out play at the extremes, it's supposed to be there.
Similarly check the steering idler for play
I don't really think the IPD roll bar will make a lot of difference. It's a bit like very large tyres. It makes the car feel better, but compare a good driver in a car with a standard roll bar and one with the bigger bars or oversize tyres, the standard one will be faster, but more untidy.
I reckon the standard front axle is preferable to the 120, 140 conversion, simply because it is more adjustable. Again as someone else has pointed out it needs to be in good condition, there is an awful lot of metal to metal contact in there.
You need to establish a baseline for the adjustments. For instance after we put a norrowed 240 axle on the '58 PV we measured the suspension settings to be:-
Rear axle Camber Left -0 degrees16 seconds, Right -0 degrees 27 Seconds.
Rear axle Toe Left +0.6mm, Right -1.3mm Total toe -0.7mm
Front axle Caster -0 degrees 37 seconds, Right -0 degrees 48 Seconds
Front King pin Inclination Left +5 Degrees 56 seconds, Right +6 degrees 08
seconds
Front Camber Left -1 degree 09 seconds, right -1 degree 07 seconds
Front Toe Left 3.9 mm, Right -2.7 mm, Total toe + 1.3 mm
I'm not saying the above figures are right, or even that you should aim to achieve them, but settings are adjustable on a PV and if you don't actually know where you start you are groping about in the dark. Incidentally the '58 PV drives very well.
Certainly if you fitted another rear axle you need to know where the wheels are actualy pointing before making further changes.
Finally remember that a steering box will never feel as positive as modern rack and pinion, the solution is to leave he modern in the garage more often and acclimatise!
Regards
Pete
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My PV initially would shake from side to side on the freeway, especially approaching large trucks from behind. This wasn't related to the steering at all, just to the tall flat sides combined with the light weight and the lack of serious roll resistance allowed side breezes to rock the car. IPD sways front and rear without any re-alignment of the front end nearly completely banished that trait.
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There are many factors to work with when you're trying to improve tracking and handling in the PV-series.
First, take some time to ensure that there is no play or looseness in the steering gear or the linkages. You can adjust the steering gear box quite a lot before you actually have to make any internal repairs.
If you're satisfied that those components are as good as they can be, look to your bushings. Use urethane bushings. You can machine them if you need to adjust the fit, and they are much tougher and beefier than the stock rubber ones. Cost is negligible.
Check your king pins...those internal pins that are inside the steering knuckle that attaches the front spindles to the A-arms. You can still get king pin kits for these cars, and they aren't very hard to install. Worn king pins would give you a feeling like worn ball joints in other cars - instability.
Next, check out those front and rear shocks. All the shocks need to be in top condition, otherwise the car tends to wander. Sound familiar? I'd install gas-filled shocks if you can get them. They work much better than the standard hydraulic shocks.
Last, once you have inspected, adjusted, and replaced everything and you know that you have done all you can, get the car aligned at a good shop. They should check that both the rear end and front end setups are dialed in.
If it handles badly after all that, shoot it!
Good luck!
Steve
'64 PV544
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posted by
someone claiming to be Erik
on
Mon May 31 06:31 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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I assume you have replaced all the bushings too? They make a big difference. There is a rear sway bar from IPD as well that will improve handling but make it a little more rough riding. You may also want to check out what some of the 544 race cars are using for a chin spoiler and see if you can utilize one without making the car too ugly.
send photos.
-Erik
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Sounds like a great car you got... how about some pics.
As for the handling, going with wider tires would probably make matters worse... but I'd do it anyhow. I never really noticed much trouble with 544s in the aspect you mention.. But I'm also pretty non-picky. were I you, I'd get a second opinion (assuming you've got a first already) on the alignment. Sounds to me like the toe in adjustment is a bit too toed out...
-Matt
--
-Matt '70 145s, '65 1800s, '66 122s wagon, others inc. '53 XK120 FHC
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Matt, you can see a picture on the PV-Register http://www.bearmanmotorsports.com/pv.html
The chassis number of my PV444DS is 30994.
Re toe in, this was initially set at 3 mm as per the manual. However this made the car behave rather crazy. I asked a specialist and the first thing he said was: Did you mount wider wheels? Well, yes I did. Adjust toe in at 5 mm, he said then. So I did and it seems allright now. What alignment experiences do others have when wider wheels are used?
I don't see why wider tires would make things worse. Experiences with other classic cars give me reason to believe the contrary. I already would have mounted them on my PV instead of 165, were it not that I hate the very heavy steering at slow speeds which it brings along. And heavy it is now already!
Gert
'52 PV444, '48 Riley RMA, '54 Morris Minor, '73 Saab 99
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My experience has been more different tires than width causing problems... just luck of the draw. I've got wide ones (205) on my 1800 now that drive fine. I've had 195s on the same wheel offset that were a real handful.
Beautiful car you gotcha there!
-Matt
--
-Matt '70 145s, '65 1800s, '66 122s wagon, others inc. '53 XK120 FHC
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I've got 205/50/15's on 6 inch wheels on my PV, and the steering is barely heavier than with the 165R15's on stock wheels. Of course, it's a bit heavy both ways, but with long experience driving non-PS cars (including some pretty big old 50's trucks) I just never turn the wheel much with the car at an absolute stop. Even rolling as little as an inch or two makes turning lock to lock half the effort.
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posted by
someone claiming to be mario
on
Sat May 29 12:59 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Crosswind issues can be amplified by a worn out steering box. Check it out, if you are able to get the play out of it you may improve the handling a lot. There should be a certain amount of adjustment that you can perform before actually rebuilding it.
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The PV is unstable in cross winds due to its shape, a big and ugly rear wing would probably cure that, not something I would do.
Also the engine is set back further than the 122/140 which makes the PV more responsive but less stable. I had a PV with almost exactly the setup you have, ( 5 inch rims, 165 tyres disc brakes ) I think its limiting factor in terms of roadholding was the tyres, 6 inch rims with decent tyres and some stiffer springs would improve the roadholding, I don't think it would do anything for the stability in cross winds etc.
I have another PV which is turning into my life's project with 140 suspension, as I haven't run the car I can't tell you if it works, it was quite involved though.See
http://volvoadventures.com/544PVHans.html
If you are looking into this 140 suspension on the front is the best fit, 240 on the rear has some advantages ( anti roll bar, handbrake set up )
With the benefit of hindsight I would stay with what you have and fit springs wheels and tyres.
Ciao
Hans
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