posted by
someone claiming to be FactoryFive245
on
Fri Jan 30 08:24 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Hi fellow brickboarders, I'm the kid that has the 86 245 Wagon named "The Hearse" in the photo gallery, and yesterday, I encountered a problem with the fuel system. I really need help. Let me explain:
I want to point out that I live in Lebanon, Indiana, where the tempatuyres have been below 20 degrees farenhiet all week.
I was driving about 30 miles away from my house to a job interview in Frankfort, doing about 65 @ 2000 RPM. While i was driving along, the engine cut out for a split second and wend right along again. I thought nothing of it. I went into my destination, and came back out an hour later. Then, when I attempted to start the car, the first 2-3 seconds of cranking did nothing but turn the engine over. Then I hit the ignition, and it fired right up. "Okay" I thought. Then, about 15 miles down the road, It just flat out gave up. My dash lights came on (as if i was just turning the ignition to "on" before starting the engine) and the tach hit zero. I parked it on the side of the road and cranked and cranked to no remorse. me and my dad left the car overnight becasue the temp had dropped below zero and it was way too cold to tow it home.
This morning, we pulled it home thinking that the gas line had simply iced up. I added some fuel tank and line antifreeze, and we went driving home. Just to see what would happen, i cranked it over while in tow and it started and ran fine. No problems. I didnt rev it up for fear something would happen. So, I shut it off. When we got home i was like "dad, check it out!" I cranked the car and.... nothing. It just turned over and didnt start. We pulled it into the garage and cranked the temp inside to 70, hoping to thaw out any frozen lines. WEll, it's been 4 hours now, and nothing. It still wont start. I have checked the following things:
Spark (it gets a good spark on all plugs)
Fuses (all are well)
Fuel line going into the fuel rail......
now here's my problem. No fuel, even when I turn on the ignition.
What do you guys think? Should I let it "thaw" out for longer? Or do you think I have faulty wiring leading up to my pumps, or faulty pumps? I'm in a real bind. I need my car before the weekend is over.
I appreciate your help, anyone. Please reply ASAP.
Andrew Gyger
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I don't think you are suffering from fuel line freeze up. Chances are your fuel injection relay isn't working. It is the white relay you can see on the firewall above the passenger's feet once you remove the black fiber cover under the glove box. Unplug the relay and carefully pry off the cover. There are solder joints on the green printed circuit board. Those joints are prone to failure over time. If you use a magnifying glass under strong light you might even be able to see which one is bad. At any rate you can resolder all the joints on the board and put it back and see if it starts. If you do not have experience soldering you can enlist someone who does to help you out. Make a note to learn to solder as it is a good skill to have.
Randy
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posted by
someone claiming to be FactoryFive245 (waiting for login password)
on
Fri Jan 30 13:12 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Randy,
As a note to your soldering idea, I found the problem in my relay to be a busted component underneath the first coil on the relay. I wished I could have used your soldering idea becasue i do in fact have the ability to soldier.
Thanks
AG
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if your relay does not prove to be the cause, I would consider replacing your intank pump. It may have done it's last spit goodbye during the brief cut out before you shut it off last.
chuck
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'88 244 171K, '87 BMW 325e 173K (used to feed a '84 245, '84 244, '85 744)
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posted by
someone claiming to be FactoryFive245 (waiting for login password)
on
Fri Jan 30 13:14 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Thanks for the help, but after shorting out the 30 and 87/2 connectors in the socket for the FI relay, i can hear both of the pumps whirring to their heart's content. I believe that my problem lies in the relay. Although, in my haynes manual, it says the car can live off of the external fuel pump only.... if that is the case, then why do they even need an in-tank pump?
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In my experience, a dead intank pump will not cause stalling out or a failure to start.
--
Bruce Young,
'93 940-NA (current), '80 GLE V8 (Sold), '86 240dl, '85 244 ti, '83 245t
'76 244 (R.I.P at 255k), 73 142 (98K), '71 144 (ex circle track car)
Used '70 144 from '78 to '92, New 144 from '67 to '78, Used '62 122 from '63 to '67
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posted by
someone claiming to be FactoryFive245
on
Fri Jan 30 10:08 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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I'm starting to think that my external transfer pump may be to blame. I checked the soldier on the relay Randy, and it appeared to be fine. Luckly, I do have soldering experiences, I work with installing car stereos as a side hobby. With that in mind, i turned my car on, and listened for the external fuel pump (i got under the car and listened and it presented no noise, vibration, or any other sense that it was working. Is this a good diagnosis or a really quiet fuel pump? If it's dead i have to spend 90 dollars on a new one.
Thanks all,
Andrew
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Andrew,
On the 200s, you can easily "hotwire" both pumps (bypassing the FI relay) with a jumper from fuse 6 (always hot) to fuse 4 (left side holder contact. More on that later).
Both pumps should run immediately. If so, you can try starting, but the basic problem remains — why no pump when cranking?
--
Bruce Young,
'93 940-NA (current), '80 GLE V8 (Sold), '86 240dl, '85 244 ti, '83 245t
'76 244 (R.I.P at 255k), 73 142 (98K), '71 144 (ex circle track car)
Used '70 144 from '78 to '92, New 144 from '67 to '78, Used '62 122 from '63 to '67
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posted by
someone claiming to be FactoryFive245
on
Fri Jan 30 10:41 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Lucid,
I have eliminated the fact that the filter and pumps are to blame. Using your hotwire method, the fuel pumps turn on and shoot fuel to the engine (i took the line off and set it in a coffee can) perfect, clean fuel was my result. now my problem is exactly what you stated....
"Why no fuel pumps when cranking?"
This is my #1 concern. If anyone can help, please replay.
Thanks for all your help.
Andy Gyger
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Andy,
You are missing posts that offer suggestions. Why don't you take the few moments to register as a user. Then log in and check the box that directs the responses to you via email as opposed to "claiming to be...." ?? It is frustrating for people to take their time to try to help someone and then be ignored.
Randy
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posted by
someone claiming to be FactoryFive245 (waiting for login password)
on
Fri Jan 30 13:09 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Randy,
If you are referring to yourself as being ignored, I am sorry you feel this way. You were the first to bring my attention to the FI relay. If it wouldn't have been for this, I would have already bought a new pump for no reason. When you said "Looks can be decieving", I heeded that as a second warning that my Relay may be faulty. After testing it, and now replacing it with a new one, my car is now running great. I have ignored nobody, but if I am wrong, I apologize. I have been daftly moving from house to shop looking at the replies to see what may be wrong with my Brick.
The reason I have "Claimed to be" is that The Brickboard has yet to send my password for the FactoryFive245 account. I have previously signed up, but the liast time I posted was during the summer and I have forgotten my password. I requested it before I posted, but I have yet to recieve it. Just now I have made a second attempt. I am sorry for any inconvienence this may have caused.
Thank you all for your help. You have all saved me much time and money, and I owe you all one. I will continue to read posts from all threads and help out where I can.
Thanks again
Andrew Gyger
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There is no apology necessary. It seemed (and I evidently was wrong) that you were not getting all your posts read. I didn't feel singled out for being ignored :-)
Obviously you had a good reason for not loging in. I hope you retrieve your password as you probably realize how handy it is to have replies arrive in your box. It is not a perfect system, however, because many times people respond to the wrong post and the response is routed to the wrong person.
The good thing is that you figured out what was wrong with your brick and are up and running again. That jumper wire is a handy thing to have in the car. Each of my Volvos has one in the glove box with alligator clips on the ends. It saved me from a tow once and helped my son give me the information I needed to trouble shoot his car from 180 miles away. Just remember if you ever have to use it that it runs the pumps even with the ignition off.
Randy
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Andy,
I suspect the FI relay, since you say all plugs have good spark. The ECU should provide a ground for the FI relay when it "sees" that the ignition is working.
You probably noticed that there are 2 coils inside the relay. One (the "main" picks with key ON. The other is for the pumps, injectors, etc. That's the one that the ECU "ground picks" when it sees spark.
Connect the relay with the cover off, and see which coil energizes with key ON. Then *manually* actuate the other coil armature, if it doesn't get picked as it should when cranking.
If it works when manually actuated, I'd say the relay needs soldering, even if it looks OK. The only other thing would be to test for the presence (or absense) of the ECU ground on the Blue-Green wire at the relay plug, while cranking.
NOTE: Also see rstarkie's post below, about the 25 amp underhood fuse.
--
Bruce Young,
'93 940-NA (current), '80 GLE V8 (Sold), '86 240dl, '85 244 ti, '83 245t
'76 244 (R.I.P at 255k), 73 142 (98K), '71 144 (ex circle track car)
Used '70 144 from '78 to '92, New 144 from '67 to '78, Used '62 122 from '63 to '67
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One thing I forgot- the 25 amp fuse and holder on the driver's inside fender. The red wire from the positive battery post runs to it. Remove the fuse and clean the contacts (assuming the fuse is good). Try to start again.
You say the solder joints look good, but remember appearances can be deceiving. I would still solder it to eliminate that as a possibility.
Try this- Use a jumper wire to connect fuses 4 and 6. With that jumper in place the pumps should run. If they fail to run then I would remove the leads from the pump and attach a test lamp to the leads. Put the jumper from fuse 4 to 6 back in place and see if the test lamp illuminates. Test light illuminates but pump does not run? Pull the back seat up and make sure the fuelpump ground is good. Remove fastner and scrape the area clean to insure a good ground. Still no light when jumpered? Then you MAY indeed have a bad pump. Not positive that indicates a bad pump for sure. Once you have done those things come back and post again adding what you have done and perhaps there will be additional comments.
Randy
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posted by
someone claiming to be FactoryFive245 (waiting for login password)
on
Fri Jan 30 13:17 CST 2004 [ RELATED]
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Randy,
I took your advice and looked at my 25 amp fuse. And boy, was it dirty. I don't even see how it was able to function. It looked like the original fuse! LOL. I cleaned the contacts and the socket itself using an emery board folded in half. it worked very well. Also, I shorted out the fuses like you and Lucid explained and found that both of my fuel pumps are in good working condition.
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The pump shouldn't run if the car isn't running...
The injection system 'listens' for spark from the ignition system
and turns off if the car dies.
threads you may find of use...
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=734193
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=733771
Miguel
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My First Volvo - stock (for now) '84 244, 230+kmi. Owned it since 9/03
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