Still another follow-up on my P444 engine questions.

Following the consensus of advice from several here and in light of issues with my B18 from donor car (cracked block, need for con rod and oil pump, possible need for rebore/new pistons), I want to educate myself on using a B20 in my 444 project. So some B20 questions before I start checking the local junkyards or looking for an engine on the internet:

If I find a B20E or F but do not want to use fuel injection, how difficult and expensive will it be to convert to carb/carbs?

What carb setup do you recommend? I assume an injected B20 drive the fuel pump from a carb car - right?

What ignition/advance curve issues will come up - do I need to change the distributor (maybe my B18 ignition?)

What parts do you recommend for exhaust system that will be compatible with the carb set-up and meet 444/544 clearance issues? I question that my B18/544 exhaust manifold will be adequate.

If I come across an older B20 with carburetors any special precautions?

In the meantime - continuing to take parts off the 544 "donor", and trying to learn to like the aura of penetrating oil that follows me around lately.

Keith

Keith,
I concur with Erik, but suggest that you go into the BB Archives and, of course, those at VClassics.com. Cost can be quite variable depending on work required and location. The machine shop work on my B20 (moderately shaved F head, hardened valve seats, .020 overbore) came to about $500, doing the taking apart and putting together myself. (That may be hard to match in Illinois.) Add to that a new K cam with lifters and bearings , new oil pump, pistons and rings (not Mahle), IPD silicon front and rear seals and new gaskets all around, and I got away for less than $1200 -- including the carb overhaul. For carb work the best deal around is Tom Bryant of West Bath, Maine, tbryant@suscom-maine.net . I think he just upped his price to $150 for a complete rebuild, including return shipping and a lifetime warranty. I spent another $380, or so, on a P1800 downpipe, 240 turbo muffler, and 2.5 inch piping, including labor. I drove the car with the original B18 exhaust at first, but going to the 2.5 inch exhaust a couple of months later made a world of difference. I used the cut-off exhaust portion of an integral, in and out manifold, and the alloy intake manifold from the B18. Lots of good discussion of this subject on this Board lately. Warning: if you go for the B20, you will soon be lusting after an M41, but, never mind, a B18 would have pretty much the same effect -- just not quite as intensely.
Bob S.

Talking about the BB archives: There is a message from Hans in which he claims a B21 dual front pipe to be a good fit in a PV after shortening it at the top. What I experienced is that a B21 dual front pipe did not fit at all in my ’52 PV444 after I installed a B20F last month (with cast iron manifold for twin downpipes). So question for Bob S.: Did your P1800 front pipe fit without any modification, was it of the single or dual type and what’s the diameter?
I’m thinking of having the rest of the exhaust made up of stainless steel by a specialist. Excluding the front pipes from this operation will bring considerable savings...

If I remember correctly, the pipe that Hans was referring to was a dual with one pipe above the other -- used on right-hand drive cars to clear the steering shaft. Not available around here. The P1800 pipe I used was the standard one for late model P1800s - two 1.75 inch pipes next to eachother, going into one 2.5 inch Y-shaped pipe about a foot after making the bend below the firewall. Perfect fit, except that I still have to modify the support bracket. Support at that point may help to keep the exhaust manifold from cracking. Take those measurements I'm giving with a grain of salt. I have a lousy memory, and the PV is wrapped up outside and under a load a snow, so I won't be able to get at it for measuring till Spring.
Bob S.

When I put a B18 in my 58 444 I used a stock dual downpipe from a 122 and it cleared the suspension fine, close, but it cleared. To that I welded the rest of a stock B18 544 exhaust. I believe that I had to shorten the downpipe just a tad before the bend to horizontal. I think that the stock B18 exhaust is 1-3/4". I also have this stock exhaust on my B20 and am looking to go to 2", but am waiting for a stainless aftermarket 2" to be affordable - long wait.

I just saw a B20 exhaust manifold on ebay and am including the the link below:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34203&item=2455016120

It's a manifold AND downpipe.

Danny, were you able to use your original (B16?) clutch linkages after you put the B18 in? B18 linkages look similar but a number of them must be different as they have different part numbers. I have not been able yet to hook up the original linkages.

You'll have to forgive me as this was in '76 when I was 27. I was putting a B18 with D type OD into a '58 444.
I used a B18 clutch shaft and the bracket that bolts to the bellhousing supporting the inboard end of the shaft.
The outboard end of the shaft mounting point had to be changed as the dimensional differences BTW B16 and B18 didn't allow the shaft to allign with the B16 location on the body. I made a couple of modifications:
I ground the welds on one of the cranks on the shaft and adjusted them slightly (just a hair, but it gave a few more degreees of rotation, and thus more pedal) and then brazed it back onto the shaft. You know how those mechanical linkage parts wear, stealing pedal)
The outboard end of the shaft takes more load from your foot and the pedal, and I got tired of the rubber grommet wearing out and increasing pedal play. I made a new "housing" for a bearing which supported the end of the shaft, and bolted that to the structural extension which goes forward to front end. I've a attached a drwing (not to scale) giving you an idea of what it looked like. email if you need further clarification.

Thanks Danny. I will try and figure it all out. Interesting coincidence that we are of the same age. Re the clutch linkages, would you advise buying 544 stuff (the parts that are different) or wouldn't that be of any help?

I'll bet somebody out there has got the clutch mainshaft and bracket you need. Otherwise, you can go to CVI and download their catalog which has great illustrations with part numbers and prices (DO THIS BEFORE THE END OF THE MONTH)

http://www.cvi-automotive.se/

There you can see the two different setups (B16 and B18) and check which parts are the same and which you need. good luck.

Dead simple to use a D-jet engine with carbs - it was designed to fit the existing engine with as few changes as possible so the reverse is also true. If you use the FI exhaust manifold it will have a thickness difference compared to the carb intake - this matters in the 4 spots where they share a common washer and nut. In the past I've either used shims (a washer folded in half) or ground the thicker manifold down to match.

The injectors sit in little holes in the intake tracts in the head. You can either take the easy way out and leave them there, at least temporarily - they won't cause a problem. Otherwise remove them and their little aluminum mounts and securely plug the holes somehow. Some method that is both air tight, secure (won't pop out if there is a backfire), and doesn't interfere with the air flow inside. I threaded mine and cut bolts flush on the inside, then screwed them in with sealer. There is a bulky cold start air valve on the front right side of the head - but the little plate in the same spot on the carb heads is smaller - I'd just leave that valve there unless you feel like fabbing up a plate to replace it.

Either distributor will work - perhaps just pick the one with less shaft wobble. Note that the injected one will most likely be a vacuum retard - and won't work correctly hooked up to the distributor vacuum source on a carb car - just leave it unhooked as it is just a mild emissions trick anyhow.

The FI engines have a working mechanical fuel pump lobe hidden under a plate - the pump off the B18 will fit right on - don't forget the 1/4 inch thick spacer however.

As for carbs unless you plan on doing a -lot- of modifications to the engine and ending up with a snorting little beast then some SU's will work just fine. They will need to have some slightly richer needles installed to be happier on the bigger engine. The Weber DGV downdraft is only good compared to a worn out set of SU's or some badly mangled D-jet system beyond repair - generally avoid them as they are just barely adequate. Weber DCOE/Dellorto carbs will provide more power moistly in conjunction with engine modifications - but they are finickier to tune, more expensive, and (generally) thirstier.

I replaced the tired (cracked ring or two) B18 in my PV with a 2.2 liter B20. Initially I just bolted up the B18 single downpipe exhaust to the engine. Worked perfectly find at lower rpms - even with the original 1 1/4 ID exhaust system. But the power faded above about 4000 - 4500 and just tapered off rapidly above it. When I finally got around to putting a header and 2.25 inch exhaust it uncorked a lot of upper rpm power.

I was a little apprehensive about getting a header - in particular IPD's catalog that explicitly excludes 544's and 240's in their B20 header listing. Made me thing there was some odd fitment issue. Then I got a used set that had come off a PV - so I knew they would fit. They look just like the 4:1 IPD headers and fit perfectly. Can't tell if they've been worked upon or not - if so it was done properly somehow - no evidence of being beaten upon.

Keith,
Any B20 will convert to carbs with a simple change of the intake manifold from a carbed car (B18 or B20 will be the same). As for what type of carbs to use, alot depends on what you want from driving the car...performance, city drivability, etc. There are as many opinions as there are options, but a properly rebuilt set of SU's with the right needles will should make you happy.
If you find a used pair of SU's plan on having them rebuilt. Rhys at Island Automation is highly recommended (he has done two sets for me and they look and drive like brand new ones.) A proper rebuild will cost between $250-$350 so plan on that when purchasing a used set, and beware of "recently rebuilt" carbs...caveat emptor.
The stock fuel pump and distributor will work fine, and there are some inexpensive upgrades from Perlox and Crane if you want.
As for the exhaust manifold, I have seen the double downpipe used on B20's in 544's and some custom headers as well. Those who have done this should hopefully post thier sources. And again this comes down to how you want the car to drive, if there is no high speed driving or racing in your plans the stock downpipe will probably work and keep the car a little quieter. My 544 has a B18 bored to b20 and every thing else is stock, and the car is happy to violate every speed limit in Washington state, it just takes a high rpm over 75mph, and you will soon learn that 444/544's are not aerodynamic and can be quite scary at that speed without sway bars, etc.
As for the penetrating oil, buy a box of vinyl gloves, and your spouse/girlfriend/parter will no longer make you sleep in the garage. :)
-Erik