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no start...desperate...please help! 200 1992

the problem im seeing is that when the car seems to be cold (sits overnight), i get weak/no spark out of the coil and a no start condition. i tested this by pulling the high tension line off the rotor, and placing it about 1/2" from the frame and watching the spark...i see intermittent/weak spark. after trying to start a bunch of times (10-20), it eventually seems to start and then will run fine for the rest of the day. the next morning the same thing.

This is the testing i have done so far:

1. ran the ICU (ignition control unit) diagnostics, received no faults.
2. ran the ICU diagnostics with starter engaged, received a good signal from the crank position sensor
3. ran the diagnostics while moving throttle, received a good signal from the fuel injection computer
4. tested the ground on the ignition amp
5. tested the ignition amp input, with voltmeter, saw fluctuating voltage between 1 and 4 volts.

presumably the above tests should rule out the ICU, CPS, Fuel injection computer

6. ran impedance tests on coil. and actually swapped coil with a supposedly good used one.

this should rule out the coil, unless ive got my hands on two bad coils which im told almost never fail.

7. replaced the ignition amp with a used untested one.

this didn't change the behavior one bit, so i guess its possible its broken in the same exact manner as the original? does anyone know how to test the output of the ignition amp?

Once the car starts, and i check the output of the high tension line, i see a strong consistent spark. Finally, occasionally when trying to start the car, the starter will be turning over and then it will seem to slam to a stop for maybe half a second, and then start going again...its almost as if it isn't strong enough to turn the engine...but after a short delay it will resume...usually when this starts happening, the car is close to starting. in addition..once it starts firing, initially if i don't give it fuel, it often will stall. ive noticed the colder weather seems to make the problem worse.

Ive been banging my head on the wall for weeks with this problem and am trying like hell to avoid taking it to the shop. any ideas? thanks so much!








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    no start...desperate...please help! 200 1992

    I'm w/ Fitz - It sounds like you have a weak battery. The key for me being thta it sometimes cranks slowly and you get a good spark after the engine starts (alternator providing power). How old is the battery?








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    no start...desperate...please help! 200 1992

    >>>"i tested this by pulling the high tension line off the rotor, and placing it about 1/2" from the frame <<<"

    1)I think 1/2" is too long to expect a big, fat spark. 1/4" is more realistic.

    2) Didn't see where you've tested Fuel Injection Main relay yet. Try Cliff's idea to jumper power (from Fuse #6) to Fuse # 4. This bypasses the relay and powers both pumps directly.

    3) Don't run it too long, if it runs with fuses jumpered (Fuse 4 may not like it).
    If it doesn't run, go thru the Relay Ops below. Try Fuel relay ground 86-2 first. No Pulses means no Ignition signal. (This follows on Fitz's tip #4)

    Please take time to read thru this. It's what I use, as brief as I can make it...

    The Fuel Injection (aka "Main") relay is mounted inside, on the firewall, just above the passenger's feet. It's input voltage comes directly from the 25 Amp blade fuse near the battery.

    There are actually two relays inside the case, referred to here as "Main" and "Fuel". By following the operation described below, a Test Light or meter can be used to diagnose "no start" problems. This description is based on the Bentley/Haynes wiring diagrams for the '86 — '89 240 LH 2.2, 2.4 (as are the wire color abbreviations). The FI relay is #217 in the diagrams.

    The relay terminal functions also apply to the 700 series B230, but the wire colors may differ and the relay connector is not as easily accessed. Tnn means relay terminal number. The term "pick" means energized.

    1. Key ON II —> Main Relay picks with +12v on T30, and Ground on T86-1, as follows:
    •> +12v on T30 (R wire) from 25 Amp fuse.
    •> Ground on T86-1 (Y/SB wire) from ECU #21.
    ••> Main Relay T87-1 now feeds +12v to ECU #9 (OR wire), and AMM #5 (OR wire)

    2. Key ON III (cranking) —> Fuel Relay picks with +12v on T-85, and Ground on T-86-2, as follows:
    •> +12v on T85 (R/SB wire) from (Conn. unknown), to Ignition Switch.
    •> Ground on T86-2 (BL/GN wire) from ECU #17, IF ECU #1 gets Ignition pulses from Ignition CU #8.
    ••> Fuel Relay T 87-2 (Y/R wire) now feeds +12v to:
    •——>(Conn. unknown*) to Main Pump (Y/R wire)
    •——>(Conn. unknown*) to Fuse #4 (Y/R), thru fuse (Y/R) to Tank Pump
    •——>Injectors (Y/R)
    •——>Idle Air Control (BR)

    (May be a 4-pin connector under glovebox area)

    --
    Bruce Young,
    940-NA (current)
    '80 GLE V8 (Now gone)
    '83 Turbo 245
    '73 142 (98K)
    '71 144 (track modified--and still here)
    New 144 from '67 to '78
    Used '62 122 from '63 to '67








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    List of things to check. 200 1992

    For starters, have you verified that your battery is good? Do you have an Autozone or someplace that will check/test batteries for free? A blown cell might be providing a low-voltage starting condition. Once the car is running, the alternator will pick up the slack. Restarting later in the day would be easier since the engine is already warm and the battery was recently under charge from the alternator.

    If the battery is not the problem, I would go right down this list:
    1. Clean contacts on the inside of the distributor cap and rotor tip.
    2. Remove and verify that the spark plugs are clean. Replace if dirty.
    3. Replace the 25 amp fuse and holder in the engine bay with a new waterproof fuse holder and a new fuse. Solder in the new one and seal it with electrical tape or shrink tubing, don't just crimp it.
    4. Swap your main relay with a known good one. I had a 'delayed' start problem with my car that was being caused by a main relay that was slow to engage.
    5. Clean your IAC valve and test it for good operation. If this is clogged or dead, you will have starting problems and typically a slightly low idle along with a rich mixture (that will foul your spark plugs). If it fails in the open position, you will have a lean mixture at idle, starting problems, and possibly a fast idle speed.
    6. Test/Replace your temp sensor (the one that sends its signal to the computer). There's two temp sensors, one for your instrument cluster gauge, and one for the computer. If the one that sends it's signal to the computer fails, you'll have starting problems and rich/lean idle situations depending on how it failed.
    7. Check/replace the inductive pickup in the distributor. This device tells the ignition computer when the engine is at the proper point to fire ignition coil.
    8. Lastly, check/swap the AMM for a known good one. It's a long shot, but it may play a role in your start/die situation.

    God bless, and I hope it's one of the above mentioned possibilities.
    Fitz Fitzgerald.
    --
    '87 Blue 245, NA 223K








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      List of things to check. 200 1992

      thanks Fitz!

      i think the battery is fine. it seems to allow me to turn the starter over 20+ times without dying. im starting to worry about killing my starter prematurely. to completely rule out the battery, could i connect it up via jumper cables to another running car, and then try and start it? this should provide a solid 12V, right? if it starts right up, then ive got a battery issue, if not...im still looking?

      -kevin








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    no start...desperate...please help! 200 1992

    just long shot here, but do you live in a moist climate or frequent showers. Also, have you done an amp check on thec fuel pumps and when you turn the key on can you hear the main pump kick on for a few seconds ?
    Does the engine appear to crank normal or is it a little sluggish in the morn?

    Also when the crank sensor is intermittant, it usaully happens when the engine is hot.








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      no start...desperate...please help! 200 1992

      THANKS! so much for the help. ill definitely check the battery. didn't think of that. however, the starter seems to turn over fine. is it possible for the starter to turn over fine, but hte battery not be producing enough juice for a good spark? the battery is relatively new, but it came with the car when i bought it a year ago.

      as far as the responses aimed at the fuel pump...if the fuel pump or some fuel component was bad, wouldnt i have a solid spark and no fuel? is there anyway a failing fuel component, could induce a weak spark? initially i thought it was a fuel issue, but then i realized i had no spark and followed that path. in addition, after trying to start it for a while, i do smell a moderate fuel smell. so i think fuel is getting to the engine. and before i switched gears and went down the electrical path, i did listen for the fuel pumps engaging.

      one thing that noone seems to know is how to test the output of the ignition amp? any ideas? do you need an oscilloscope for this?

      thanks again for all the ideas.
      -kh







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