posted by
someone claiming to be andyknight
on
Mon Jul 28 15:28 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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I'm having trouble with #1 injector getting current,the injector is fine and the harness is fine(checked continuity), the connector on the computer is good as well, so now I have to fix the computer or buy another, I'm handy with a solering iron, is it fixable for the do-it-yourselfer? Thanks.
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Viper. Give no1 cyl more clearance,if improvement noted it would point to worn front cam brg. With static adjustment pushrods hold camshaft down,when engine is running gear thrust pushes cam up. If brg chewed tappet clearance will close with engine running. Jack McIntyre. Aust.
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Jack,
That is an interesing thought. What would you adjust to?? .022 or so??
I did have the new cam bearings pressed in when I did the motor. The have less then 200 miles on them. Did lube the cams well with cam/assembly lube on each install. I would give it a try next valve adjustment. Would not the Cam have to flex/bend alot if I assume the back two bearings are good.
Greg
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I had problem in my b20e before rebuild. The only way i could stop the miss was to open tappets untill it evened out,turned out front brg was badly worn with metal in sump. If your cam brgs are new they might have picked up if oilway is blocked or not lined up properly, or std brgs with -010 camshaft. It might not relate to your problem ,but you seem to have covered all other areas in your faultfinding. Opening valve lash .05 to .10" will instantly negate a fault if it is in this area. Regards Jack McIntyre.
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Jack,
Thanks. I verfied the bearings were over the oil holes. When I the engine back the back one was misaligned (saw with mirror) and I had him reinstall correctly. He said the bearing hole even spun or off alittle would not cause a problem as the cam requires little oil but I made him redo it. I will try to open up the #1 exhaust and intake from spec the .05 to .10 and see. I still beleive the cyl temp at the header pipe is lower on #1 due to cooling and seeing one other person (the only that tried with the IR thermometer) with similar offsets in temp between #1 and the others.
Greg
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Greg, have you tried colourtune to see what air/fuel charge is in #1 cyl?. Looking at your list the piece of gear you did not replace seems to be inlet manifold.Closer look with straight edge and check branch to no1 closely?. Regards Jack.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Viper1800E
on
Wed Jul 30 10:38 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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I would swap the injectors first. If the problems still is there. Turn the ingition on and move the throttle and you should hear clicks from the bank of injector the trigger points are selected to 1/3 and or 2/4. You can rotate the distributor to select the other bank. You can then pull the each of the connector off to see if which one is/are clicking or injecting fuel. If it clicks it is probabley OK electically. You should get some resistance or <10 ohms (wire to injector and 3 ohms for the injector winding) from the ECU connector to the injector and back to ground on the manifold. If it is 0 ohms you may have a short in the harness or you have not zeroed the meter and or are on to high a scale. If the ECU is suspect you maybe able to extend the #3 line to swap #1 and #3 harness cables. I talked to one ECU repair guy and he said the solder joints are the only problems he has ever found on ones he has repaired. You can Oscope by back probing on the injector connector and comparing pulses to the working ones as another check.
Greg Bodner
1970 1800E
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posted by
someone claiming to be andyknight
on
Fri Aug 1 08:45 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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Thank you for the tips, I have determinced that after swapping injectors 1 and 2 that I have no injector problem, after checking continuity of the harness deduced I have no harness problem, after checking resistance at the ECU pins 3,4 and 5,6 I have 10 ohms resistance, so it seems the ECU is good, the primary sympton that I notice is noticably less drop in engine speed when plug wire #1 is removed, I also checked for spark on that plug, it's firing. Maybe this is someting mechanical but compression on # 1 cylinder is 164 psi hot, that would tend to eliminate camshaft,valves, head gasket, rings, as being problematic, maybe it's a fluke, the good news is I have already resoldered all the joints in the ECU I could get to and it still works, I even squeezed the harness connectors together, to ensure proper contact on the ECU pins. Overall I still
prefer FI to Carbs, when it works it works great, D jet was so way ahead of it's time, it is a well engineered system in my opinion, I will investing further into the contacts in the distibutor , I have a dwell meter somewhere,thanks.
Andy Knight 72 142
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You can pull the FI injector connector each injector and see if the stammering is equal while the car is running on all cyl's. I was chasing ghosts on my 1970 1800e after a rebuild going by similar type problems after a motor rebuild. Read the old posts for cylinder #1 low power and low temp by me and others. If the plug color is good and your car is runnig OK I would drive it. I beleive the #1 cylinder is differnt in the heat arena from mine an others input. Read the old posts for a better explaination. I Oscilloscoped all my injector lines, replaced spark plug wires, ECU, Distributors (points to pertronix version, rang out all lines, bought an OTC Fuel burn (burn time, peak/average spark voltages) meter, changed cylinder head, did leakdown and compression checks and changed a heard of plugs.
Bottom line is it running OK drive it. Did you do the wire swap and new plug thing?
Greg Bodner
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posted by
someone claiming to be andyknight
on
Fri Aug 1 13:22 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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I've swapped plug wires and plugs #1 and #2, BTW both of those plugs were a grayish tan color which suggest good mixture and spark, so with 164 psi (good comprssion) reading this is pretty baffling, although I used a known bad injector in #1 and it ran horribly, barley at all, which I took as proof it was at least getting some combustion in there with a known good injector, pulling the injector harness for #1 produces the same results as pulling the plug wire, a very little, but perceivable drop in RPM, pulling 2,3,or 4 produces much more noticable results. The 142 has good power, but I have to coax it to keep it running until it warms up, I've adjusted the dial on the ECU to best idle,
I know the Aux Air valve never closes, so I plug it after the engine warms, I'm getting another one soon, after warmup it has good power but a rough idle, after reading a what you went throught in a effort to get the car running even exhaust manifold temps, I'm experiencing a little trepidation, maybe the head gaasket is leaking when the engine is cold, and retorqing it would inmprove cold idle, anyway I hope you have sufficiently recovered from your surgery to work on your 1800, thanks.
Andy Knight 72 142E
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I think you are mimicing what I tried and if it runs OK warm I would not worry about it . I would look at the air slide and temp sensor like you are and maybe spray carb cleaner or propane to see if you have an intake gasket or FI injector gasket leak. Mine does not idle the best unless the air inlet sensor is disconnected that I think causes it to run rich. Even when I adjust the ECU full rich I can not get to idle as well as with the sensor removed. This sensor was diconnected when I got the car alos. I have an O2 Halmeter in line so I see it go richer with the knob adjustemt. My theory is the injector timing is changing also with the air inlet temp sensor is disconneted. I defer to Phil or George on what you should do or if it a real problem (chasing Djet ghosts like me). Here is the recap of my toils. I would try the retourqe but I did 5+ head gasket changes and a complete rebuilt head change with little help.
Greg Bodner
1970 1800E
Here is what I have done since the fault.
Noted after initial rebuild and startup (30 min cam break-in, 1 hour
drive. ) #1 header pipe was not discolored and #1 plug not brown or
looks un used. . #1 temp = <200 deg F. #2,3,4 = 600 deg F or
greater. Temp does not increase from idle or more that 50 degs upon
3-5k revs .
Rebuild included. block baked and cleaned, Rebored .030, New Mahle
ceramic and dry filmed pistons, balanced clutch/flywheel, balanced
crank and rods, crank polished/turned for .010 under new rod and main
bearings, new cam ISKY VV61, new cam bearings, new lifters, new ISKY
chrome moly push rods, new oil pump, new starter, rebuilt
distributor, new water pump, new fiber timing gear, 4 new injectors,
ceramic coated intake manifold, new aux air slide, new temp sensor,
new thermostat, Stage 1 header.
Retourqed head, readjusted valves, change plugs, swapped in old plug
wire, swapped injector. Flow checked injectors and checked spray,
Checked spark with inline spark gap checker. Failed same.
Removed head and replaced gasket. Adjusted valves. Did leakdown
<10%, Did compression 160,165,165,160. Retourqued head 170,165,
170, 170. Reversed fuel flow on fuel rail to give #1 first shot at
fuel from pump, cranked up fuel pressure 28 psi to 40, Changed
distributor back to point version one, changed cap, rotor, swapped #2
and #1 wires. Failed same. Did night time spark arc check. No
sparks noted. Removed FAN BELT to see if fan was causing #1 to be
low (closest to fan) . Did not help.
Installed original exhaust manifold (took off header) and inspected
intake manifold for blockage. None found. Checked header at the same
time but #1 tube AOK. Failed same.
Rang out all injection lines ( open, short to gnd etc.) back to ECU
AOK. Replaced FI ECU and failed same.
Removed head and had it decked and magnafluxed. Reinstalled with
new gasket, header back on and failed same. Removed and inspected
timing gear AOK, inspected relation of cam to distributor and valve
train, AOK. Replaced cam with a new one and back to stock D-Grind.
Failed same.
Bought new rebuilt head. Lapped in valves and had sensors installed.
Installed with new gasket. Did compression check, 165,160,160,165
Failed same. Retorqued head. 180,175,172,180 compression.
Readjusted valves. Failed same, Swapped distributor to rebuilt one
with Perlux pointless module, swapped cap, rotor, #1 plug. reswapped
#1 and #4 injector. Swapped ignition coil. Failed same.
Drained coolant and ran engine for a few minutes to see if head leak
that leakdown did not show. . Still no temp #1. Did leakdown with new
head this time ran pistons up and down bore. Had 78/80 leadown or
almost none.
Can pull injector connector and or spark plug to #1 and engine
stammers/misses as with any other cylinder. Some spark and some fuel
but no power.
Each time
Timing was adjusted each time and played with . 15 btdc +/- 10
tried. Verified timing and cap wire placement , Sprayed carb
cleaner and propane to check for intake leaks. Lots of new plugs and
some stuff I am forgetting.
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Got full lift on all the cam lobes?
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Paul brings up a good point. When I removed the D grind from B20E it was worn more on #1 than the rest of the lobes. Car did run good before my rebuild but had bad ring blowbye thus the rebuild reason. I had a brand new VV61 and finally a brand new "D" grind cam in my motor with the problem so that was not my issue but maybe yours. You maybe able to use a dial indicator/stand and check the pushrod/lifter rise or look at the adjustment screw to see if it more worn with out pulling the cam.
Greg
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posted by
someone claiming to be andyknight
on
Mon Aug 4 12:03 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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Thanks for all the info, I will file that for sure,I will check the pushrod and lifter for extra wear, thanks.
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Just double-checking that you also verified the problem injector's ground at the rear of the intake manifold.
Of course you can swap two injectors and see if the problem follows the injector or stays on the same cylinder.
The four injector circuits in the ECU are identical, so you can measure out a good one and compare to the suspected bad one. I don't have a schematic of the box, sorry, but failures are pretty rare. Could be a degrading solder joint at the connector, or something that simple.
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One of the other injectors pulses at the same time as #1. Maybe you
could find where they separate and fix it there.
It might just be a connector on one end or the other of the wire.
Do you have a diagram? If not, I do. I might be able to scan it.
--
George Downs, The "original" Walrus3, Bartlesville, Oklahoma
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posted by
someone claiming to be andyknight
on
Tue Jul 29 03:22 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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Thanks George you Okies are great, I would be greatly indebted if you could send me a diagram. I understand #1 and #3 pulse at the same time, I'm using a multimeter to check the continuity from the injector #1 connector to the #3 terminal(positive lead on #1 injector) on the computer, it checks out no resistance like it should, the ground (#26 wire) checks good to. Thanks.
davida_d_knight@yahoo.com
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Use your multimeter to see if you get a pulse on both one and 3 then,
Maybe your injector is dead.
It may be a couple days before I can scan the diagram in. Why don't you
e-mail me about Thursday and remind me and tell me where to send it.
May not be able to e-mail it to your address.
--
George Downs, The "original" Walrus3, Bartlesville, Oklahoma
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posted by
someone claiming to be Niel
on
Tue Jul 29 09:33 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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Found the schematic some time ago on the net:
http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/ecu1.jpg
Check for 12 Ohm resistance between pins 3 & 9 and between pins 5 & 7. I'll bet one of those 5W resistors are either burnt out of has a broken solder joint. A 6 Ohm 5W resistor is rated for 5.5V average, and in D-Jet it is energised 50% of the time (T251 does the inversion between the 2 banks). If an injetor or an ECU output is short circuit to GND, the injector resistor will average 50% of the supply voltage (ignoring D502 voltage drop). At 13V supply, the resistor would see 6.5V and dissipate 7W. Would not last long in that state.
Solder joints get weak from heat cycling, and form intermetalic compounds: perfectly conductive, just very brittle. This is the infamous relay solder joins problem assosiated with newer models, and usually occurs after about 10 years. OD and fuel pump relays are famous for this, because they are energised most of the time (heating up).
niel at volvoadventures dot com
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posted by
someone claiming to be andyknight
on
Tue Jul 29 10:26 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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Thank you,now what wouldn't last long, the Injecotrs or Computer? I had some trouble finding the website you mentioned, has it moved? Am I killing the injectors? Yikes!!!
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posted by
someone claiming to be Niel
on
Tue Jul 29 20:15 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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The web site works just fine on my PC through a dial-up connection, and from work through a high speed connection. I just copy and past the addr. in my browser. I've had this from someone else as well, where their service provided blocked a very good site. The person just tried a different service provided, and it worked. Can I e-mail it to you? It is just over 300k in size.
If you did not get the schematic, you will not understand what I've meant. Inside the ECU there are 2 output stages, each driving 2 injectors (as you know). From each injector to the relevant output stage there is a 6 Ohm 5W ballast resistor connected in series between the injector and the output stage (i.e. 4 in total, one per injector). The part that could burn out due to a short circuit of an injector is the relevant resistor in the ECU, because then you will have 7W dissipating into a 5W rated resistor. If one injector on one output stage is working and the wiring is correct, it can only be the resistor that is burnt out (1$) or the solder that is broken or circuit track that is burnt (0$). Both conditions are inside the ECU, and you will have to open it. There will be no further damage, since we know both output stages work. To confirm 100% without opening it, measure the resistance between the connector pins as I've described before, with cables unplugged. The 12 Ohms that you should measure is 6 Ohms from the connector to the output stage, and then 6 Ohms back to the connector. Also check for a short circuit between the ECU case and the pins on the ECU that the injectors connect to, which would also blow one of the resistors. If you are confused, I've got a D-Jet ECU in the garage that I could open and give more exact info, including how to open. Never opened it before, and it came with other parts I've bought.
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posted by
someone claiming to be andyknight
on
Wed Jul 30 02:54 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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I must say I was puzzled to find infinity between #3 and #9 and #5 and #7 pins,
my thought was how could the injectors be working at all!#3 and #4 and #5 and #6 both have 10 ohms resistance between them, and there is no short circiuting to the case from these connectors, I have opened the ECU several times, and even gone as far as resweating all the solder joints I could reach, it was a bit time consuming, but probably worth it. Thank you very,very much for your help and I will try to locate the website you recommended again.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Niel
on
Tue Jul 29 20:17 CST 2003 [ RELATED]
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Correction to my first post, the injectors connect to pins 3, 4, 5, and 6. The 4 looked like a 9 on the schematic.
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