Yesterday I found myself near the local Volvo dealership (which is a 45 minute drive from home) so I thought I'd stop in and check on some parts and prices. After nice long talk with the parts manager, he brought in one of the certified Volvo mechanics to answer some of my harder questions. The following excerpts are from a conversation that took place on Thursday, May 28, 2003 from about 11:45 a.m. to 12:45 p.m. at Betten Imports in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Please use the information below at your own discretion, and please don't blame me if it's incorrect, etc. I'm not a certified Volvo mechanic and I'm trying to remember the conversation as best as I can per my notes. I’ve separated some of the main topics and titled them. I hope this will answer a few of the questions that came up on this board recently, -and it would seem that I was incorrect about the interference issue in a B230.

----------Piston Issues in 85-87 engines and ‘lifter’ noise-----------

Fitz: “I’ve got an ’87 240 wagon with a rebuilt B230F with about 20,000 miles on it. It makes a very soft tapping/knocking sound after I start it, -about 30 seconds if it’s a warm start, and 2 minutes if it’s a cold start. It almost sounds like lifter chatter but I’m pretty sure it’s not. Is this a case of oil starvation?”

Volvo Mechanic: “No, it’s not oil starvation. The ’85 through ’87 engines used a new lightweight type of piston rod that caused some minor noise issues. What you’re hearing is piston slap, but don’t worry, it’s not damaging the engine. I’ve seen them go for 400,000 miles and still run just fine. It could slap all day long, but it’s not hurting anything. Eventually, Volvo did issue a new type of piston set to deal with the noise issue in those engines. You’re familiar with the ‘C’ and ‘D’ bore marks on the engine block, right?

Fitz: “Yes.”

Volvo Mechanic: “Well Volvo introduced a new type of ‘G’ piston to replace the ‘C’ and ‘D’ pistons when the engines came in for rebuilds. This was to address the piston-slap problem. Did the shop who installed your engine rebuild it themselves?”

Fitz: “I hope not. They messed up a lot of stuff while they were in there and they didn’t fix the issues that cause the first engine to fail. Both the Flame Trap and the IAC valve were clogged and the timing was set at 25 degrees BTDC at idle.”

Volvo Mechanic: “Ok, they probably just bought a rebuilt engine from a company that rebuilds them. That company probably didn’t know about the new piston series when they put it together so they just ordered ‘C’ and ‘D’ pistons as needed per the stampings on the engine block. There was a notice sent out to all the Volvo shops, but many of the other companies who rebuild engines don’t get these and are not informed of the improvements.

Fitz: “Is there anything I can do to help alleviate the noise?”

Volvo Mechanic: “No. Not without spending $600 on a new set of pistons. However, there is one other possibility. There are a set of cups under the cam that could be causing the problem.”

Fitz: “You mean the shims under the cam lobes?”

Volvo Mechanic: “No, and don’t call those black things shims or we’ll laugh at you. They’re called ‘Pucks’ and no, those aren’t what I’m referring to. If you pull your camshaft out, remove the pucks, and pull out the remaining lifter assembly, you should be looking straight down on the valve stem. On top of the valve stem is a little cup-shaped object that sits on top. When 3rd party shops rebuild these engines, they typically put the old cups back in and have no clue what they do or what specs they should measure against. We see this a lot and it’s a good idea to replace them when rebuilding your engine if they don’t have the proper tolerances. This could be the source of your soft lifter chatter, and again, it’s probably not going to hurt you. If you want to, you could change these.”

Fitz: “How long would it take? How much time should I set aside for a job like that?”

Volvo Mechanic: “15 minutes or so. Just pull the cam and keep your lifters and pucks in order of where they came from. If you mess any of them up or put them back in the wrong place, you won’t be able to start your car when you’re done.”

(Note from Fitz: I forgot to ask if I needed to check the ‘puck’ clearances when I’m done with this operation.)

-------------Electric Fan conversion and body roll----------------

Fitz: “I’m in the process of converting the car to an electric fan. Any suggestions?”

Volvo Mechanic: “Yes, -don’t do it. If the electric fan dies on you, you’ll never know it until you engine temp gauge is in the red, and by that time you’ve warped your block. There is a reason that Volvo used mechanical fans as long as they did, they work great and keep the engine cool. When a mechanical clutch dies, it still keeps the engine cool. When an electric fan dies, you’re screwed. The only reason that Volvo used electric fans in some of their late model rear-wheel drive cars was only due to the fact that there wasn’t enough room to fit a mechanical fan and clutch assembly in there. Be safe, stay with your mechanical fan. One trip into the red on your temp gauge and it’s all over. –you will have warped the head and should expect an expensive repair bill.”

Fitz: “How about saving horsepower?”

Volvo Mechanic: “It’s not worth it. You’re gaining what? –almost nothing. If you’re really after horsepower, come take a look at Tim’s (head Volvo mechanic) 240 that’s sitting behind the dealership with the 5.0 liter V8. It’s a pretty popular conversion and will give you some serious horsepower.”

Fitz: “Is he using strut bars on the V8 240 for reinforcement?”

Volvo Mechanic: “No, I don’t think he’s to that point yet. But really, what are you going to do to improve the handling of a 240?”

Fitz: “Well, I just picked up a set of turbo sway bars from the parts yard. A few weeks ago I was cruising down the highway at 65 mph and had to swerve hard to avoid a raccoon. I thought I was going to tip the car over on its side.”

Volvo Mechanic: “They tend to give a lot in corners, but you shouldn’t need to worry about flipping the car. The turbo bars will help a bit. There’s not a whole lot that you can do, especially for a wagon. The 240s have a lot of roll, the 740s have a lot of roll, but take an 850 down the S-Curve on US-131 and there’s a car that will hug the corners and feel like a true machine.”

-------------Timing Belt Tensioner and B230F interference issues-----------

Fitz: “How often should I replace the timing belt tensioner? -Ever other timing belt change?”

Volvo Mechanic: “They’re pretty durable and they tend to last awhile. When you’re changing your timing belt, check to make sure that it rolls easily/smoothly and isn’t making noise. If it makes noise or there’s resistance then change it. I’ll be honest, in the last couple years, I’ve replaced only one timing belt tensioner on a customer’s car.”

Fitz: “You’re not worried about an older one failing while driving?”

Volvo Mechanic: “No, and you look like a pretty handy guy with your tools. I’d expect you could change your timing belt at home in 15 minutes. Let’s say that your tensioner fails while you’re driving down the road and tears the belt. If you can’t change your timing belt and tensioner by the side of the road in 45 minutes, you shouldn’t be doing this at all.”

Fitz: “Is the B230F an interference engine? You mentioned that it was ok for the timing belt to fail while driving. Wouldn’t this cause damage to an interference engine?”

Volvo Mechanic: “Do you have a 16 valve head?”

Fitz: “No, it’s the regular stock engine and head with no mods.”

V-M: “Then no, it is not and interference engine. The 16-valve version is an interference design. You could be going 90 miles per hour down the highway and have it fail and you’re not going to have any damage.”

-------------Thermostat longevity------------

Fitz: “How long does a typical Volvo thermostat last in the 240?”

Volvo Mechanic: “If I knew the answer to that question, I wouldn’t be working here.”

Fitz: “Seriously, how often do you change them? Do you do it at every coolant flush or every other?”

V-M: “There’s no real way of knowing when it’s going to die. Two years, ten years, there isn’t any way to predict it.”


-------------Discussion on PRV-6 engine-----------

Fitz: “I’m curious, why does the PRV-6 engine have such a bad reputation? I’ve seen the schematics and it looks like a good design.”

Volvo Mechanic: “It is a good engine, but only the 3rd generation. Before that, there were issues with timing chains failing and camshafts that would wear down. –Not to mention that it was a pain to replace the camshaft. You had to cut a hole in the firewall from inside the car, unbolt the cam cover, and pull the camshaft into the car to remove it without having to pull the whole engine. This is a miserable operation to perform.”

Fitz: “How do I know which ones are the 3rd generation engines?”

Volvo Mechanic: “Volvo started making the first generation engines, the B27, back in the 1970s. The design was a joint venture between Peugeot, Renault, and Volvo. It had some issues and was succeeded in 1980 by the B28 version (second generation). The B28 is actually worse that the first generation B27 and they would typically run for about 80,000 miles and then die. The 3rd generation engines finally had the bugs worked out of them and they ran great. I think the end of production of the 3rd generation engines was 1987 or 1988 and these were pretty decent.”
(Side note from Fitz: I think the mechanic was referring to the B280 engine as the 3rd generation, which had a production run from 1987 to 1990. The 2nd generation engine, the B28, was produced up until 1986.)

Fitz: “If they got all the bugs worked out by the 3rd generation, how come there aren’t a lot of them around?”

Volvo Mechanic: “By that point, the PRV-6 had developed such a bad reputation that they couldn’t give them away. Nobody trusted them, and thus nobody was buying them. It was unfortunate because this was the best version of the engine. Overall, the PRV-6 ran excellent at highway speeds, but it had serious problems keeping a stable idle. If you wanted a car that runs well only at highway speeds, the PRV-6 will do just fine.”

Fitz: “If there were known problems early on in the production of the PRV-6, why did they use this engine in the Delorian?”

V-M: “I think you just answered your own question.”

--------------------------
--
'87 Blue 245, NA 214K

You're all very welcome. I found the quoted conversation so informative that I had to transcribe it and post it (since it answered many of the questions that have been itching around the back of my mind for some time).

One correction to make, in the original post, I wrote:
"If the electric fan dies on you, you’ll never know it until you engine temp gauge is in the red, and by that time you’ve warped your block."

This is a mis-print. You aren't at risk of warping the block (which is Iron), but you are at risk of warping the head (which is Aluminum). The mechanic said it correctly, but I typed it wrong in the original post. If you search the archives, you will find further info on this, and I believe SouthernFriedVolvo has had a recent experience with this:
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?id=624054&show_all=1 (sorry to use you as an example)

I hate to admit this, but I've accidentally overheated my '86 Pontiac 6000 on two occassions. The Pontiac's "Iron-Duke" engine, which has a solid Iron block and an Iron head to match, showed no ill effects from the temporary mis-hap (aside from needing an oil change after the events). Unfortunately, GM did some radical changes to the engine design in 1991 if I remember correctly, and the "Quad-4" engine that succeeded it had an aluminum head and only lasted about 100K to 120K miles of typical 'American' driving and abuse.

After the talk with the Volvo Mechanic, I am planning on putting my mechanical fan back on. I've been driving without it for the past couple weeks and I'll see if I notice a difference in power when I put it back on. -I'm guessing that I probably won't.

Also, thanks to the insightful help of the brickboard and those who have posted here (and on their webpages). -and yes, I am planning on putting the turbo swaybars on the car. I don't have the money to invest in IPD bars and this may be a bit extreme for my driving needs. I spend almost equal time on good roads and bad roads. If anything, I would guess that my car would ride better around here with stiffer sway bars and softer shocks. (in theory this would lessen the effect of poorly maintained rail-road crossings, potholes, and radically changing pitch/planes of a road surface.

Lastly, I agree that the times that the mechanic quoted to pull the cam and to replace a timing belt are a bit fast. Since this is the only thing that he does day-in and day-out, and the fact that he's paid the big bucks to do it well and do it quickly, I'm guessing that I'd take about 3 to 8 times longer than the times he quotes. -depending on the job and the fact that I don't have the repetitious experience to do repairs fast and do them well at the same time. It's usually one or the other for a thorough guy like me who doesn't fix Volvos for a living. I also love to learn about new parts of the engine I've never taken apart before and I tend to inspect assemblies and parts more than necessary.

God bless and happy bricking!
Fitz Fitzgerald.
--
'87 Blue 245, NA 214K

While I'm here, I'm still going to take issue with the comments about an
electric fan.

The failure of the fan to operate, electric or mechanical will not (by
itself) cause a catastrophic overheating event to occur***.

You'd have to ignore the overheating symptoms for a while for damage to
occur. The temperature gauge in the 240s is either not compensated
(pre-85) or not horribly compensated (unlike the 700s).

The example you gave, a radiator hose had broken. Very different from a
fan failure. In that case the cooling system had lost most of its
coolant. A failure of the fan to run wouldn't impact the cooling system
nearly that much.

Keep in mind that if the fan clutch fails on your mechanical fan, you'll
loose most of the benefit of the fan running anyways (and somehow I think
that's more likely than a failure of the electric fan).

Electro or mechan-o, it's your choice. I wouldn't go through the effort
of refitting the mechanical fan unless you have a more pressing reason to
do so.

*** Yeah, it CAN cause disasterous problems if you're not driving a Volvo.
Take a look at href="http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/9715/faq.html#cool1"
style="text-decoration: none">the silly design choices that Audi made.
Yeah, the fan (electrical or mechanical) could fail in a way that would
cause the blades to cause some damage, or a flying pulley, or something...
but that's an extremely rare occurance.

- alex

'85 244 Turbo
'84 245 Turbo

Good information, thanks.

Piston and noise issued: Little conflict with discussions on the board. Little rubber cup shaped things are valve hushers. They mount on the ends of the valve stem, under the tappet or "can" and the cushion the noise a little. I replaced these on my son's noisy '95-944T. It worked. They really cut the engine noise but for how long, I don't know. I see these as a new car, quiet engine, selling feature only. More on this below. More important, check the valve clearance every 100K or sooner.

Timing belt tensioner and B230F: There are probably a lot of B230F engines on the road with 200k+ miles on the tensioners. For preventative maintenance only, replace every other belt change. Cheap insurance. As for the timing belt change, it takes me at least 45 min to remove the acc belts. Add 45 min to change the T-belt, and 45 min to replace the acc belts. Add 15 min to readjust a belt. Add 20 min for looking for tools. Add 45 min BS time...

T-Stat: I agree, they can last two to ten years. I am not sure why I replaced mine.

The photo below shows the old valve hushers on the ends of the valve stem, on an eight year old B230FT, "cans", "pucks" or tappets removed. A new husher is sitting to the left. Warning, cans must be placed back in the same spot they were removed from. I don't wear gloves when handling these because I can't feel the grit and dirt on the gloves. These parts have to remain clean. Use cam assembly lube during reassembly since there is a tendency for the parts to dry out because of handling. 15 minutes for this job? Sure, for a pro. I'd be pushing it if I could do it in less than an hour or two.
--
Tom F

Thanks for the PRV section. That was alot of great info. I appreciate the time you took to type it. Thanks Again.

Sincerely,

Nickvjr
1979 264GL 119,900

Sounds like the folks at that dealer know their stuff. A great find, especially in the heart of American car territory.

As usual there are a few things I disagree with there.

First, while the later B230s got pistons with (longer) skirts to help avoid the piston slap.. I think it would be pretty hard to mistake piston slap for valve noise. I didn't ask the machine shop if the valves were way out of alignment, but I replaced the exhaust manifold gasketes when I re-installed the head. Much quieter. In comparo my friend's B230FT still makes loads of noise. We're guessing piston slap or rod knock. Either way, mine sounded like a light tapping, his sounds like a diesel. Two very distinct noises. Piston slap should go away once the engine warms up and tolerances become smaller.

An electric fan is of debatable merit. In fact the only time I'd consider one is if you've got a turbo (to help cool the engine down once you shut it off) or if you do a lot of low speed high temp driving. The only reason I'd avoid one is because it's just one more electrical hassle. As long as you are above about 35mph, you should have enough airflow over the radiator and engine to cool the engine without having any sort of fan. BTDT, drove without the fan for a few days in my sedan. Didn't notice any power difference (of course I'm pretty sure the clutch is shot anyhow). I would hardly worry about failure causing the engine block(!) to warp. I would worry about shoddy wiring causing a fire.

As for the PRV, I'm a bit curious why they described the B28 as being worse than the B27. I sure see more B27s (or cars with the 2.7 liter badges and V6s under the hood anyhow) in the yards. I was under the impression that the later B28s got harder cams than the early ones, which did help with the longevity. Of course, the B280 is the V6 to aim for.

As for handling, you can eliminate body roll almost completely on any Volvo if you want to. However, with the "primitive" live axle setup of the 740s and 200s, you'll give up a lot in ride quality by doing so. IMO body roll is pretty minimal on my sedan and I would feel pretty confident swerving to avoid stuff. The wagon is a whole 'nother story, its suspension is just in piss poor shape... wagon or no, you've got options. Have you seen Dave Barton's wagon? :-D

- alex

'85 244 Turbo
'84 245 Turbo

Whoops, I realized a few things could be taken the wrong way.

With the electric fan, I specifically meant low speed, high ambient temperature. With the mechanical fan being tied to your engine speed, if you're cruising around on a hot day at a slow speed.. an electric fan which can rotate faster would afford better cooling.

My shot clutch was the fan clutch, and not the one coupling the enginet to the transmission.

After a post to turbobricks, I just though I'd add one more thing about handling. Volvo put a whole bunch of thought into the chassis tuning of the 200s and 700s. This is not to say they ignored the later FWD cars, but you can really tweak a 240 if you want to.. Mike Justeen wrote a fantastic bit about the research Volvo did (and other makers like MBZ were too lazy to do) on accident avoidance (I'll dig this up later tonight).

The general theory of Blisteins + IPD bars probably holds quite true. However, there's lots you can do as well. The front end alignment is pretty well adjustable. You've got any number of bushings that can be replaced with polyurethane units. Chassis braces. And don't forget that the Blisteins can be revalved (about $60/shock IIRC). Different ball joints to induce more twitchy handling.

IMO, that whole "if you want power, go for a V8" is a bit of a cop out.. but.. oh.. this should probably go in the OPINIONS forum.

- alex

'85 244 Turbo
'84 245 Turbo

Interesting, and very informative. Thanks for sharing that Fitz.

I would have to disagree with him on the point of body roll however. I drove a wagon for ten years and the best thing I ever did to it was ipd sway bars. The thing wallowed like an old Cadillac before I replaced the bars, afterwards it cornered as flat as a go-kart. Bars and good tires make a huge difference in the handling of a brick IMO.

--
don hodgdon '89 744ti, '81 242t, '71 D-35

That was very informative and made sense. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

Joe Scott