Hi all, I am thinking about replacing oil, transmission, brake, differential, power steering fluid with synthetic. Any ideas on problems or risks & who makes the best for the above??

I just switched from Mobil 1 back to dino. There were some posts at this site from drivers who had an analysis done of used Mobil 1 and found that it lost viscosity. I find that using Mobil 1 here in Canada the cost is three to four times the cost of a good dino and the oil was just as dirty upon visual inspection as the dyno after 5000 km. In addition when using Mobil 1 I had to add one to two litres to keep the level topped up in between changes (5000 km). This is not the case with dino. Also I found that the engine is noisier with Mobil 1, and the valve train is noisier just after start with Mobil 1. I think that there some benefits when considering lab tests but in practice I could not tell the difference between Mobil 1 and dyno other than the cost and increased engine noise with Mobil 1.

Not a synthetic convert, 92-960, 200 000 km

I am Canadian too, and did a fai bit of research before the original post. Several friends in the Volvo Club of Canada have cars with 1.75 million miles, all of these use synthetic fluids.

Two things are for sure: before the switch to synthetic in transmission, engine, and brake, it is wise to have them professionally flushed and vacuumed to remove as much of the old fluid as possible.

Second, where the engine oil is concerned, it is wise to half the length of time between the first two oil changes. Because the synthetic oil is a superior cleaner, the oil get extremely dirty, and will plug the oil filter. After that, the regular interval is fine.

I had not heard that synthetic was bad for seals and gaskets. Any other problems with synthetics?

Chris .... Where the heck did you find AMSOIL in Halifax .... Have never seen the brand hereabouts EVER .....

--
Brett Sutherland & the 1.5 million mile 122 Canadian

Hey Brett, How's the 122 doing? Good I hope :) Believe it or not, I found a source that sells AMSOIL in NB. I searched and searched for it because I had to have the best oil I could get my hands on (at a reasonable price). Adam (my mechanic) carries it for me now and we have a some of his other customers using it as well. He trusts my reasearch and recommends it to select customers. Currently, my 745 has Amsoil 10W40 in it. I ran 10W30 for the first change, but I put in 10W40 after 5K km to try to quiet the piston slap a bit. Unfortunately, my Vo's slap returned (to a lesser degree) after Adam rebuilt the engine last summer. I guess I'll have to live with it. The Amsoil does seem to help with it a bit though and the engine is running great otherwise :) If you want some Amsoil, just let me know (email) :)
--
Chris. Halifax N.S. '91 745Ti, 273K km.

Synthetic oil will find leaks in your engine so be prepared to spend some money on gaskets. I had to do my rear seal when I switched. The thing leaked like a sieve after the switch.

Don’t be seduced by high mileage cars and the type of oil they use. SAE research found that high mileage on a car is not an indicator of how well a particular oil performs. A few years ago when Duralube, Slick 50 and other brands claimed super-lubrication because of Teflon and other additives, the SAE conducted research into these claims and found them false. As a result all of the advertising had to be re-worded so as not to mislead the consumer. One of the things the SAE found was that virtually all of the wear in an internal combustion engine, regardless of the oil brand or type, occurs during start up. Further, synthetic oils outperformed dinos only in extreme load conditions (prolonged high RPM state). I can’t remember the last time my 960 went over 4000 RPM. From my experience with synthetics in the 960 and my Sunbird coupe, I believe that using Mobil 1 for a daily driver is about as useful as putting on Z rated tires. It is purely an academic exercise that will put a dent in your wallet.

The other thing is, do you want to keep a car for 1 750 000 miles (2 800 000 km)? Last week I drove my mom’s 98 Corolla in the city. It has a less jarring ride than my 960 and the cab is quieter. I also went to look at the new Accord and I drove the new Altima. As far as interior room goes the front seats were comparable to the 960 but the rear seat room was significantly greater. The Altima was a V6 and wow did it move. Driving the 960 after the Altima felt like the 960 had a four cylinder in it. Also, the Altima was a lot quieter. I did not drive the Accord but I imagine it is similar to the Altima. My mother-in-law has a 97 Accord 4 cylinder and we are just waiting for her to get a new one so we can buy it from her.

92-960, 200 000 km (most of it on dino)

Hi, I'm in Canada too (just outside Halifax). I converted my B230FT to Amsoil about 7K km after the engine was rebuilt. I ran the first fill of Amsoil 5K km and I'm probably going to run this fill 7K km and then at 8K km intervals thereafter I think. It seems to be excellent oil. My engine only used about 1/2L in 5K km and even though the engine is rebuilt the turbo is original so I expect to loose a little oil. I also have my rear diff ('locker') filled with Amsoil 80W90.
--
Chris. Halifax N.S. '91 745Ti, 273K km.

I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get converted to synthetic. Were you per chance leaking oil anywhere? I'm always quick to point out that synthetics find leaks, they do not cause them.

Also, visual inspection of an oil's dirtiness is not an indicator of how well an oil is doing. The point of a good oil is to suspend dirt and other particles that aren't caught by the filter within the oil itself. The best oil in the world would still get dirty regardless.

As for losing viscosity, I definitely recall reading the same thing here by a brickboarder so I have to agree with you there.
--
Kenric Tam
1990 Volvo 740 base sedan (B230F)
My Volvo 'Project'

No leaks, just annoyingly high oil consumption. I have owned cars from all of the big tree and never did I have to check my oil level weekly and, on a longer trip, daily.

I have to disagree with you about oil’s appearance and suspended dirt. If an oil looks dirty, it is dirty. Suspended particles act as abrasive agents. Further if the colour change of the oil is due to chemical contamination or chemical changes than you have an even bigger problem than just suspended particulates. My problem with Mobil 1 was that I could not bring my self to keep the oil in the car for more than 5000 km when it was black as asphalt and thin as water. Also the fine print for Mobil 1 and Amsoil recommends changing the oil as per the engine manufacturers instructions. No extended service intervals are recommended. What does this tell you?

I imagine that Mobil 1 outperforms dino in high load/RPM applications but I believe that using Mobil 1 for a daily driver is about as useful as putting on Z rated tires.


92-960, 200 000 km (most of it on dino)

The Amsoil bottle in my Vo's trunk clearly states that the oil can be used for longer then the manufacturer's recommended change interval in any non-turbo engine. In a turbo, it's suposed to be changed at the manufacturer's recommended interval.....
--
Chris. Halifax N.S. '91 745Ti, 273K km.

How long did you run with the synthetic before concluding that it was overall dirtier? I should also point out the fact that synthetics are known to clean the engine better than dino oils so appearing dirtier makes perfect sense. I would rather have the 'gunk' in my engine suspended in the oil and removed when drained than built up in places where it shouldn't be.

I know for sure that Mobil 1 does in fact say to drain it at normal drain intervals according to manufacturer specs. But I'm not sure about Amsoil. However, I would venture to guess that these are more of a disclaimer than an actual fact. When was the last time you heard of ANY product telling you flat out to go against manufacturer recommendations?

Oh well.
--
Kenric Tam
1990 Volvo 740 base sedan (B230F)
My Volvo 'Project'

“How long did you run with the synthetic before concluding that it was overall dirtier?”

I have tired a synthetic in my 4 cyl. Pontiac Sunbird for about 15 000 km and in the 960 for about 40 000 km. I changed the oil at 5000 km or sooner regardless of oil type.



“ I should also point out the fact that synthetics are known to clean the engine better than dino oils so appearing dirtier makes perfect sense. I would rather have the 'gunk' in my engine suspended in the oil and removed when drained than built up in places where it shouldn't be.”

I think that the appearance of the oil depends on the engine. The 6304 is a “dirty” engine. The oil changes colour in less than 1500 km. This is also true of the 4 cyl. Tempo engine. On the other hand, the 4 cyl. Sunbird engine “stays clean” for about 3000 km. and the valve train has no deposits.



“I know for sure that Mobil 1 does in fact say to drain it at normal drain intervals according to manufacturer specs. But I'm not sure about Amsoil.”

I am sure that Amsoil does as well. When I was switching I researched both oils but I could not readily purchased Amsoil here is Canada so I went with Mobil 1.



“However, I would venture to guess that these are more of a disclaimer than an actual fact.

That is precisely it. It is a disclaimer because any increase in performance can not be substantiated. When oil is full of contaminants it is harmful to the engine regardless if it is a synthetic or dino. A colloidal suspension has the same abrasive properties regardless of the medium.



“When was the last time you heard of ANY product telling you flat out to go against manufacturer recommendations?”

Many after market replacement fluids and replacement parts state that they will not violate the warranty yet Mobil 1 or Amsoil do not do this with the extended service interval. Where did this idea of extended service interval come from?

That is precisely it. It is a disclaimer because any increase in performance can not be substantiated.

Many after market replacement fluids and replacement parts state that they will not violate the warranty yet Mobil 1 or Amsoil do not do this with the extended service interval. Where did this idea of extended service interval come from?

When oil is full of contaminants it is harmful to the engine regardless if it is a synthetic or dino. A colloidal suspension has the same abrasive properties regardless of the medium.

“Wait, I never said anything about performance and neither did you.”

I thought that is what we were talking about. An extended change interval to me represents better performance since it implies less deterioration in composition and better ability to handle contamination. To me a disclaimer is a disclaimer. Either the product is proven to perform as stated and backed by the company or it is not.


"First to introduce the concept of "extended drain intervals" with a recommended 25,000-mile/1-year drain interval."

My father-in-law subscribed to this theory except he used dino. All he did was add oil when needed and changed the filter in his Pontiac 6000. The car died of other causes not engine wear. The fuel system rotted out and was not worth replacing after 10 years and about 300 000 km. So I don’t think that Amsoil has anything on dino in this respect. And I also wander if this is the reason for longer service intervals using dino on some newer cars. It may seem that the increased service interval may not have to do with oil type as much as previously thought.



“In addition to that, a bunch of people here who may not read the 900 forum have attested to having oil analysis done on their oil showing that the synthetic has not broken down after having been run well over 10,000 miles.”

I don’t know what “not broken down” means but if you handed a sample of that oil to any mechanic or engineer they would tell you the oil is contaminated. If you could keep oil clean and free of chemical contamination it would lubricate for ever.



“Perhaps I am wrong in assuming this but I am under the impression that the oil filter is responsible for removing contaminants that may be abrasive to your engine. The stuff you see being suspended in the oil is below the filtration level of the oil filter. I understand that some stuff may slip by the oil filter.”

Not “may” but does. Further as I mentioned before , a few years ago when Duralube, Slick 50 and other brands claimed super-lubrication because of Teflon and other additives in the oil and in the filter media, the SAE conducted research into these claims and found them false. As a result all of the advertising had to be re-worded so as not to mislead the consumer. One of the things the SAE found was that virtually all of the wear in an internal combustion engine, regardless of the oil brand or type or filter, occurs during start up when there is little or no lubricant present hence the add statement “this product will increase engine life” became “this product may increase engine life”. Further, synthetic oils “outperformed” dinos only in extreme load conditions (prolonged high RPM state). I can’t remember the last time my 960 went over 4000 RPM. From my experience with synthetics in the 960 and my Sunbird coupe, I believe that using Mobil 1 for a daily driver is about as useful as putting on Z rated tires. It is purely an academic exercise that will put a dent in your wallet.


“After all, it's not a 100% effective purification system of some sort.”

In an extreme case it can be. All media filters improve in performance as they get clogged up. Unfortunately this also reduces flow.


“This is an interesting discussion. It's nice to have a good discussion with someone without it degenerating into something immature. :-)”

Yes it is.

92-960

I thought that is what we were talking about. An extended change interval to me represents better performance since it implies less deterioration in composition and better ability to handle contamination. To me a disclaimer is a disclaimer. Either the product is proven to perform as stated and backed by the company or it is not.

I don’t know what “not broken down” means but if you handed a sample of that oil to any mechanic or engineer they would tell you the oil is contaminated. If you could keep oil clean and free of chemical contamination it would lubricate for ever.

Not “may” but does. Further as I mentioned before , a few years ago when Duralube, Slick 50 and other brands claimed super-lubrication because of Teflon and other additives in the oil and in the filter media, the SAE conducted research into these claims and found them false. As a result all of the advertising had to be re-worded so as not to mislead the consumer. One of the things the SAE found was that virtually all of the wear in an internal combustion engine, regardless of the oil brand or type or filter, occurs during start up when there is little or no lubricant present hence the add statement “this product will increase engine life” became “this product may increase engine life”. Further, synthetic oils “outperformed” dinos only in extreme load conditions (prolonged high RPM state). I can’t remember the last time my 960 went over 4000 RPM. From my experience with synthetics in the 960 and my Sunbird coupe, I believe that using Mobil 1 for a daily driver is about as useful as putting on Z rated tires. It is purely an academic exercise that will put a dent in your wallet.

In an extreme case it can be. All media filters improve in performance as they get clogged up. Unfortunately this also reduces flow.

I am glad that my post has generated such interesting debate. I believe I can lay to rest the debate. In the slick 50 matter, Quaker state was found guilty of misrepresentation that slick 50 improved engine life, and that using slick 50 was superior to starting without it. Quaker state paid $10 million in penalties. Here is the US federal court link. http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/9707/slick.htm

However, we must distinguish between synthetic addatives, and synthetic oil. As shown above, the addatives do not measure upo the their claims. It is however true, that the synthetic oils do produce many benefits. They have a lower viscocity, higher flash, and will remain fluid at much lower temperatures.

It is also true that synthetics do clean more better than conventional oils, and may reduce friction on moving engine parts. They may also encourage leaks which conventional oils do not. Amsiol is the top rated synthetic but most inductry and indepandent studies.

One should not change their oil change interval with synthetics, because dirty is dirty. I spoke to the technical manager at Volvo Canada since I first started this post. He said to keep the oil change interval at 5,000, even wioth synthetic. The only place one could consider not changing it, is with transmissions and differentials.

Because the synthetic is better for moving parts, it may be easier on the parts or engine, and may help seals and parts a little longer. Re the leaks, I have not had any direct experience suggesting this. More posts may indicate the truth.

So, the bottom line is this: always change engine oil at 5,000 with all oil; synthetics likely are easier on moving parts; but may engourage leaks. Hope this clears things up.

I switched mid-stream (90k miles) on my wagon. At 115k my rear main started leaking.... Now I have 165k and this weekend I'm doing the front seals. Is their a connection, how would I know?
Will I continue with Synthetic? Yes, definitly. Changing oil min.1/3 of the time is a big plus. Inside the valve cover it now looks like a new engine.

I also dropped the first few a the same intervel as Petrolem, just for the fact that the Syn. tends to clean everything up

Have you replaced your flame trap?

Castrol also makes a DOT 4 fluid, however the bottle is not as cool looking as the Valvoline. I buy whichever is cheaper at the store.

As far as the Oil thing goes. I always used Castrol until I found out on this board that their synthetic is not truely synthetic. Mobil sued them over this fact but lost. I fear that Mobil will now change their formulation to save money just as Castrol did.

I have a feeling that Amsoil is the best but I have not gone through the trouble of finding a dealer. I saw an interesting post by a mechanic that says he as seen 2 engines that were damaged because the owner used Amsoil when the car was brand new. The oil provided such good lubrication that it prevented the engine from breaking in properly. It must be pretty damn good oil to do that.

Prevents break-in, huh?

Old wives' tale.

Mercedes, Porsche, Viper, Mustang, etc. come from factory with Mobil 1 in the crankcase.

Never, ever trust the opinion of a mechanic about motor oil unless for some reason he or she is a chemist or petroleum engineer just out of a real job.

I don't think Mobil will change it. It's been several years since that 'real vs. fake' synthetic lawsuit thing came up, and Mobil's still using a PAO base stock. I even emailed them less than a year ago inquiring about it and they told me that it was definitely fully synthetic, and not hydrocracked.

edit:

Here we go:

Mobil 1 is not made from hydrocracking petroleum, it is made from
converting a gas in the form of Decene, converting it to a PAO synthetic
(group 4).
Tri synthetic consists of 3 synthetic chemistries, PAO, Synthetic Esters and Synthetic Aromatics. PAO is the largest portion of Mobil 1, and the key component, The other 2
mentioned work to allow the excellent performance with regards to additive
solubility and seal elastomer swell characteristics. If you were to
formulate a 100 % PAO product, you would have an oil that will not hold any contaminant or water, and would leak out by your seals. The bottom line is that "Nothing outperforms Mobil 1" at any price.

I would urge you to contact our competitors and ask them if their synthetic
is PAO.

You may find the following website interesting. --
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-overview.html

Please notice the final paragraph, it sums up the situation nicely. There
is more to selecting an oil than "the numbers"

Many of our competitors can formulate an oil to do well in one test
required by API for approval. No oil can match the overall performance of
Mobil 1 "on all tests combined" In other words, you may be able to make an engine oil that one a single test would appear to outperform Mobil 1, but overall this is nearly impossible.

Mobil1 Supersyn motor oil is still a PAO based oil which is a group IV and it also has proprietary anti-wear synthetic package which would be a group V basestock. So to answer your question Mobil1 is still a fully synthetic oil and it always will be.

Valvoline makes a synthetic 'Synpower' brake fluid that is Dot 3 & 4 rated. It can be bought at most places including K & Wal Marts. I've been using it in both our Volvo's for the last couple of years.

I agree with the comments of Jbowers and Ringlee and in the same order.

I've used synthetic fluids since 1984 in engines, transmissions, transfer cases, differentials, power steering units and brake systems. I personally swear by synthetics (I live in a climate range of 100 to -20 degrees).

If you do nothing else, I would highly recommend using synthetic ATF in the AS30-40 trans. It's money well spent IMO. M1 or Amsoil.
--
1998 S90 062,925 1995 964 145,750

All brake fluids are synthetic. ;)

If you're looking for a decent brake fluid that has a good wet and dry boiling point, get some ATE Super Blue or ATE Type 200 (same thing, different color only.)
--
Kenric Tam
1990 Volvo 740 base sedan (B230F)
My Volvo 'Project'

I doubt very strongly that all brake fluids are synthetic,,

Engine, Mobil 1 is a good value, Amsoil better, but more $, Redline,to expensive

Transmission, same as engine.

Brake NEVER! if you mean silicone. Won't work with the ABS system and even in older cars requires COMPLETE rebuild of system to gain any benefit.

Differential, Probably not unless it is rated for use with your limited slip.

Power Steering, same as engine.

Search the archives for more information. I use Mobil 1 products.
--
'96 965 with 16' wheels at 101K. Had '85 745 Turbo Diesel for 200K.

No problems, only good performance. See the FAQ. Amsoil makes the best, followed by Mobil, Redline, Valvoline.