posted by
someone claiming to be Jeff
on
Tue Nov 6 12:02 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Once again I thought I had pushed this problem out of exsistance, changing out all of the injectors made this little problem vanish for a short while yet once again it has reared it's ugly head. My Car is a 1983 240 GLT (Intercooled) b21ft/k-jet.
The problem itself is random at best, sometimes the car will run perfectly, at other times it starts stumbling around 2.5k-3.5k RPM - the car itself will be jerking back and fourth violently as if missing on a couple cylinders. It will not improve by pushing down on the throttle more, and around 4k RPM the car will not accelerate further.
I'm confused as to what exactly could be causing this problem. I've found similar problems with newer model cars, but I think the same information would no longer apply to my own.
Any Suggestions -
And thanks to those whom suggested where I look for my oil leak - it turned out to be a cracked oil feed for the turbo, which was leaking and running back along the side of the engine - from there it ran down to appear it was more or less comming from the rear seal.
Thanks,
Jeff
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jorn Schreurs
on
Tue Nov 6 21:05 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Jeff,
Just a long shot, but check wether your voltage is constant enough. Sometimes the alternator regulator goes bad causing the alternator to give more AC type power. The battery can only iron that out so much. You can check using a standard multimeter with AC voltage measurement. The 700/900 FAQ has a chapter on it.
Although you have mechanical CIS there is plenty of electronics left that can get confused. A new regulator solved all my problems (after 4 months of trouble shooting and replacing parts).
Reg,
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posted by
someone claiming to be Norm
on
Tue Nov 6 14:50 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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I experienced a similar problem back in the 80's on a 80 242. It was a gummy pusher pump in the fuel tank (Delco). I removed, placed in a container of hot water and Simple Green and ran from a 12 volt battery. It would barely pump in the forward direction. I then reversed polarity and after a few seconds it started to pump brown gunk from the gummy gas deposits out the intake port. After a minute of this, I then returned back to normal polarity and it pumped great...repaeted a few more times and replaced. The pump was fine right up until I sold the car a few years later. I also had to do this on another 79 240 and it lasted from 110K until 230K when it sold..again no recurrence. I found the bucking problem to be worst on warm fuel and it would clear when a few cool gallons of fuel was added to the tank. It would also sometimes clear just by turning off the ignition quickly and back on while running..be careful not to lock the steering. Hope this helps.
Regards.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Randy Starkie
on
Tue Nov 6 12:51 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Original wiring harness??
Randy
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jeff
on
Tue Nov 6 12:57 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Sadly as far as I know - yes. It looks to be in good condition however, but just in case mind pointing me to a place I could buy a replacement from? (Online if possible - or else I have to drive to Vegas to the Volvo Dealer.)
Think that could be it? I was pondering it myself - but I'm not sure I'd be up to doing something like that. How hard is it to replace?
Jeff
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jessie
on
Tue Nov 6 14:29 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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I just replaced my 84 turbo harness. Its not that bad if you are used to working on cars. You pretty much have to remove the intake to do this. For some reason Volvo snaked the harness around the control pressure regulator and other stuff under the intake. I made my own harness but it would be much easier if you got a new one from IPD. The worst spots on my harness were under the manifold where you could not see. On some wires there was not enough insulation left for me to tell what color they were. I found the hardest parts were cleaning the engine up enough to remove the intake, and routing the wires that go under the engine to the alternator. The alternator is hard to work on because the turbocharger and oil filter get in the way. It is time consuming so you could save a lot of money doing it yourself.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Randy Starkie
on
Tue Nov 6 14:02 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Sometimes they show up on eBay. Replacements that have done their duty until the car reaches the end of its life and end up at the boneyard.
I have never replaced one but I believe it involves removing the intake manifold to get at things.
Randy
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jeff
on
Tue Nov 6 13:04 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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To list a few other symptoms that follow when this happens - Rough / high idle. It sometimes will idle as high as 1500, and lopes between 1000 and 1500 commonly. Also it randomly stalls at it's own free will, normally sitting at idle, revving up the engine and then letting off the throttle really quick will cause the idle to drop low (500 or so) then shoot up to 2000 before killing the engine.
The stalling also happens while driving, sometimes the car will just act like someone turned off the ignition (no response from the throttle and the tach usually drops to 0). Turning the key on and off then letting out on the clutch will allow the car to run again. Sometimes this will fix itself on it's own without me having to turn the key off.
If that is a bit more info for you all.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Lucas
on
Tue Nov 6 14:14 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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High idle, slow responding idle motor:
Sounds like the idle motor could use cleaning, and the Throttle Position Sensor might need to be adjusted.
Stalling Engine:
I agree with the wiring harness diagnosis.
Wiring harness could look fine on the outside, but the insulation on the individual wires inside the sleeve insulation is what matters. If those touch it could cause the symptoms you are describing. These years are notorious for this kind of failure with the bio degradable insulation.
Thankfully my 242Ti has the upgraded wiring harness.
Changing a wiring harness does not sound terrible, I have never done it personally. U can get one from iPd for our model (B21FT) for $250.
Removal of the intake manifold makes it easy, and in my opinion is necessary. Dave Shannon deatils it at his site http://www.homestead.com/volvo2/harness.html
I also agree with the pre-pump function. it will cause these symptoms too, take off the filler cap on gas tank and listen for a pump buzz.
Stumbling:
Does your 02 sensor feedback system work? There is a little relay near the high/low relay near the battery. Friend (john laughlin) replaced this relay with a different one to see if that would cure my idle cough, and it seemed to for a while. so we decided to head out, it made the running worse. It described symptoms like you detail. Putting in a different relay did not do much either. He cleaned the terminals of the harness relay plug and that fixed it!
So, if that system is not working quite right, the car wont run right.
The frequency valve near the air filter/fuel distributor needs to buzz, this receives power from that relay I was talking about earlier, and changes the fuel pressure, which changes the richness of the fuel.
hope this helps
take care
Luke
82 242Ti 165k miles
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jeff
on
Tue Nov 6 14:38 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Well I'm sure the feedback system is working, as the relay you mentioned does give off an audible buzz while the car is running - I'll order and replace the in tank fuel pump but as for the wiring harness itself. IPD doesen't seem to offer one for a b21ft engine any longer - so I'll have to try somewhere else.
Thanks for the suggestions so far and keep them comming if you have anything else to add.
Jeff
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jessie
on
Tue Nov 6 14:44 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Actually the price at the dealership is not that bad. When I was price shopping the dealer price was about 30 dollars more then IPD. I'm in Canada though so I had to deal with dollar conversions. The dealer might not be such a good deal in the USA.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jeff
on
Tue Nov 6 14:52 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Well My problem with going to the dealer is that I have to figure in 40.00 USD for gas money to get there it's well over 170mi from where I live. So that drives the price up further.
I'll assume on the IPD site that 240 Turbo (B21) Wiring harness is ment for the B21ft? As the B21 is the non-turbo engine correct?
Jeff
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posted by
someone claiming to be Lucas
on
Tue Nov 6 18:21 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Jeff
Yes, the 240 Turbo wiring harness is the one you want, and it is meant for a B21FT. Yes, the B21 is the non turbo engine.
Do u have any weird electrical stuff going on? Warning lights coming on at weird times, weird oil pressure readings?
if not, harness might be liveable and fuel seems more suspect. But for the price iPd charges for a brand new harness, seems like good insurance.
Reading the other posts and your further diagnosis, I would tend to agree with the pre-pump diagnosis more and more. have u listened to the tank to see if it works?
As speed increases, gas would be forced back more towards the rear of the gas tank, so it would be harder to pump it out of the tank (pump and connections at front), which would seem to concur with your symptoms.
have you checked vacuum lines and everything?
I currently have a stumble also, but it is during a very brief period of the engine warm up process, cold and hot the engine revs good with no stumbles.
it seems to idle kinda rough, replacing fuel injectors and making sure I have no vacuum leaks should fix that... I hope
hope this helps
good luck
take care
Luke
82 242Ti 165k miles
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jeff
on
Tue Nov 6 18:46 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Ah - well on the IPD site it only lists "240 Turbo - b21" Does not say "B21FT" so I'll assume that is is just a typo. And no, actually I have no electral Problems so I'm going to replace the FPR, Main Pump and In tank pump first to see what that does.
Jeff
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posted by
someone claiming to be Lucas
on
Tue Nov 6 19:57 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Jeff
Ya, it could be just a typo. Then again, the B21F is just a gasoline 2.1 liter fuel injected engine.
By saying Turbo they are technically correct in that aspect since a B21FT is just a turbocharged B21F with a few internal engine modifications.
To make things easier, u probably dont need to change the FPR, which is actually the Control Pressure Regulator(CPR, Warm-up Regulator). It just controls the fuel pressure changes during the engine warm up cycle.
Another idea might be to get a K-jet fuel pressure tester from JC Whitney for $50 or so and see what your fuel pressures are. Then u would be able to isolate your problem easier in theory. If you wanted to go that route instead of putting parts on to see if it would fix the problem.
I have gone that route as have others, and while it yields good results some of the time, if you are off then there is money spent on parts not particularly needed at that time.
hope this helps
good luck
take care
Luke
82 242Ti 165k miles
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posted by
someone claiming to be JM
on
Tue Nov 6 15:05 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Jeff:
Does the tach jump around when this happens?
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jeff
on
Tue Nov 6 15:13 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Which problem?
I'd say no, but when the car stalls while driving or stumbles sometimes the tach drops to 0 RPM, it will not function again until the ignition is turned off and then back on again.
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posted by
someone claiming to be JM
on
Tue Nov 6 15:24 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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During the "Stumbling" BUT while the engine is still revolving does the tach jump around OR fall to zero?
The Tach. is driven electrically from the same source that the coil gets its signal from................................................
Good luck.
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jeff
on
Tue Nov 6 15:57 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Not during the stumbling - while it is stumbling the tach stays steady at 3k RPM (Normally where it starts) and will continue to rise along with the RPM of the engine - Also to add a bit more info this always NEVER happens before third gear, the engine will run all the way upto the redline if I wanted it to in first or second, on third around 4.5k it starts to 'stumble' and in fourth around 3-3.5k - In overdrive sometimes it gets bad around 2.5k - which made me think it was a fuel problem.
But you all have given me many things to look into - which I will be doing. So thank you
Jeff
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posted by
someone claiming to be Jeff
on
Tue Nov 6 14:47 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Well My problem with going to the dealer is that I have to figure in 40.00 USD for gas money to get there it's well over 170mi from where I live. So that drives the price up further.
I'll assume on the IPD site that 240 Turbo (B21) Wiring harness is ment for the B21ft? As the B21 is the non-turbo engine correct?
Jeff
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posted by
someone claiming to be B.C.
on
Tue Nov 6 17:29 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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Jeff -
I am a n/a 240 guy, so I am not hands-on familiar with the B21FT. Can you get a harness from a boneyard that's an exact match for your car? If yes, here's what I would do to re-build that harness.
It will take some time. (1) get some split tubing in 2 or 3 sizes to replace the outer "shell" exactly. The old shell will likely have to be cut away with a razor-sharp knife. this will keep the configuration of the variour wires' entrance and exits as original.
(2) Get some colored wire, red, green yellow , blue, not black, other if available, all at 16 guage or a smaller number (fatter) and replace each wire one by one, soldering on to the new wire the tips or connectors from the old one. There will be some wires that are OK. You may find that the wires with the failed insulation are ONLY those which terminate in the gray firewall connector or those which are in the harness that goes under the front of the engine.
When that's done, double check everything. Putting it into the car does require removal of the intake manifold, but not entirely out of the car. I was able to pull it back from the head a few inches, but leave it resting on the support bar.
You decide if the labor is worth it. Shop around eBay or on the BB for OEM sellers, IPD isn't the only game around. There's fpcgroton, rprusa, and many more. Check with Evan R for a boneyard harness is you need to. Call a dealer parts dept and ask if the p/n for the n/a harness is different that the turbo version.
Good Luck.
Bob
:>)
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posted by
someone claiming to be walter
on
Tue Nov 6 12:24 CST 2001 [ RELATED]
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probably your problem with the engine not accelerating is your intank fuellpump as well as your injectionpump
I had the same prolem and it occured mostly with the tank under half filled
when i filled it up even only a little more than half the problem was solved
greetings
Walter Schutz
The Netherlandsww
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