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Very strange. Heading into town the signal lights stopped working. Coincidence? Shut off at a store and when trying to leave, have no ignition. Starter is fine. lights in dash are off. Hazard & headlights work. Other lights OK. Power to ignition control unit & coil are OK. Coil tests low at 8000 ohms (a bit low), but otherwise OK. This seems to be a connection issue... Where to check?
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Bob
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I am just reporting back that it was fuse #13. What we found was that the fuse looked fine and tested fine on the front, but when looking at the back, one end was broken and not connected to the end. I find it hard to believe that it would keep running without the fuse, but then would not restart after shutting off. I verified that this is the case today. When I first started testing I am pretty sure there was no power to the left side of the fuse and that is why I replaced the ignition switch. With the new switch I had power to the left side of the fuse, but not the right. These fuses don't hold up very well to vibration caused by driving gravel roads.
I was very gentle when pulling the plug from the Chrysler control box, so may not have caused any damage.
It doesn't idle very smoothly, but is no longer dying. I'm having trouble convincing myself to do any more work. She gets us to town and back getting about 20mpg, so I think we'll just drive her.
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Bob, old retired electrical power engineer (not electronics), living off grid and using good old lead acid batteries that are now 99% recycled. (Just an inconvenient truth.)
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This post has been marked as an answer to the original question.
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Congrats, Bob. Sounds like it might have been both the fuse and the ignition switch. My very first advice in my post above was to carefully inspect the fuse, saying it can be deceiving. The reason I said that is I got stung by that more once. In one memorable case I wasted a couple of hours taking the dash half apart to do further investigation to find the fault as the fuse looked perfectly okay when all along it was the ends of the fuse having worn through because I would occasionally spin them back and forth a bit to make sure they had good contact.
There are all kinds of reasons why it might not be idling smoothly, including vacuuum leaks, fouled plugs, old ignition wires and dirty throttle plate. As long as it's reliable and not going through too much oil and gas then for a 40 year old car, I'd cut it some slack and say it's just got a quirky personality.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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I think this can be called resolved, but I'll let you know in a few days, maybe after Christmas. It now seems obvious that the problem is the ignition switch and I remember having an intermittent problem with the dash lights before. I see no point in doing any testing. A new switch has been ordered from IPD. Shipping is 2/3 of the cost of the switch!
Happy Christmas everybody.
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Bob
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Bill nailed fuse 13 as the suspect circuit. If it turns out fuse 13 looks intact then pull it (as in remove it) to make sure the ends haven't worn through -it can be deceiving. If the fuse is okay then it could be the ignition switch. The hot side of fuses 11, 12 & 13 are on pin 15 of the ignition switch. With the ignition ON (KP-II) check for 12 volts on those fuses. If none have 12 volts then it's likely the ignition switch, otherwise the problem is likely elsewhere in the fuse 13 circuits. If you don't have a meter handy then if either the backup lights still work (fuse 12) or the dash indicator still lights when you set overdrive (fuse 11) then the ignition switch is okay, otherwise suspect the switch. It's simple to replace with two slot screws holding it to the back, but a pain to access the screws and see what you're doing. Best to remove the instrument cluster and access from above using a light and mirror rather than try from under the dash.
Your 1984 wiring diagram green manual can be found here in the OzVolvo archives
https://ozvolvo.org/archive
Type 1984 into the search field to find it.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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Hey Dave;
Thank you very much for the link to the diagrams. I had no idea how bad the diagrams were in Bentley until looking at these.
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Bob, old retired electrical power engineer (not electronics), living off grid and using good old lead acid batteries that are now 99% recycled. (Just an inconvenient truth.)
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Bill's right. Fuse 13. Give it a spin.
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Art Benstein near Baltimore
A man was driving down a muddy road when his car unexpectedly became stuck in the puddle of mud. Despite his best efforts, he was unable to get his car out of the hole.
He abruptly noticed a villager riding his bullock cart near him.
He asked him to extricate his automobile from the mud as soon as the bullock cart arrived. The farmer used his bullocks to pull the car after they agreed to a price of Rs 1000 for the service.
He gave him the money after giving him a huge sigh of relief.
“There must be many cars that would get stuck in the muck like this,” he inquired of the local man.
The villager responded, “True sir, “You are the sixth guy since morning whose car got trapped in this mud.”
Man: “Oh my God! so you pull all of them off. “
Villager: “Yes, sir.”
Man: “This service keeps you busy for a full day pulling the cars from the mud, having no time to do your own work.”
Villager: “Very true, Sir. I have to do all my work at night only. “
Man: “Oh, I see! By the way, what is the main work that you do during the night? “
Villager: “I just ensure that this mud is never dry.”
A good part of the government’s job is to ensure that the mud is never dry. -- famous paraphrased by Abhishek
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Hi Bob,
I don't have the 1984 manual but think Fuse 13 is for the directionals
so you can have a dead fuse and/or corroded fuse socket.
There's several ignition schemes in that era with different controllers
so you need to specify what engine and ignition setup.
My two cents before a 240 heavy hitter chimes in.
You can service the connectors to the controller and the distributor 3 pin connector for the hall. Use Penetrox-A on the connector pins.
Perhaps it's a transistorized controller and is mounted
on a heat sink, if so you can renew the thermal compound.
Check out: Ron Kwas's Old Volvo distributor and Ignition page here:
http://sw-em.com/Volvo%20Ignition%20from%20Scratch.htm
and wiring guru
www.davebarton.com
Goto for wiring parts and info.
See his 240 wiring fix pages.
Read his section "ACZP" Anti Corrosion Zinc Paste (Penetrox)
Good luck, Bill
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Thanks Bill. The first thing I checked while it was still running fine was that fuse. We are lucky to live where corrosion caused by humidity is very rare and the car came from the desert SW, so except for the bad insulation issues this car is nearly perfect underneath. It is a conglomeration with the Chrysler control box and LH2.0 on a later engine. I figured that out after buying it when trying to fix the AC. People here helped with that. Imagine driving a 40 year old car with working AC! To make matters worse, I am no electronics genius and I had just found a cracked vacuum line that goes to the control box, that had been causing hard starting and rough idling. I don't even know what a Hall sensor is. It was running perfectly and has a nearly new starter, but I have to wonder what I touched when fixing that vacuum line. I suspect the signals and dash warning lights have nothing to do with the engine dying. I went back yesterday with tools and gave up when my hands were freezing. I will be towing her home today, put her in my shop and start by looking in the dash.
One of my motto's is that I am too stupid to give up. You don't want to know what all I did to Daisy before a hail storm destroyed her. Anybody else would have hauled this hail damaged old beater to the crusher long ago. We keep old Daisy Lilly for gravel roads and now have a 745T for the highway. I think it is the only one in my Montana county and the dealer in the next county over doesn't have anybody old enough to work on these things.
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Bob
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Hi Bob,
You stated you might have disturbed something?
You say you replace a vacuum hose on the controller of which is of Chrysler fame.
The fame comes from the connector that has one way one time terminals inside it.
It’s the only link to the outside world other than that one hose that sucks! 😉
Our 240’s have a long life history of a few mistakes but that hasn’t lessened the joy of owning something reliable and repairable by using common sense.
No need to have a large wad of money, from an already scrimped wallet, to make payments for some shop with specialized equipment.
I have a 1986 and my 1984 after my 1986 year with that same controller.
I had a problem with losing spark on one or the other a long time back.
I’d say it was my 1986 that I learned my lesson on about that plug. Do not remove!
I think it had a yellow(?) wire in that connector too.
It was not making a good connection inside caused by me wanting to service the terminals with corrosion preventive.
I ended up cutting one corner of the connector away and soldering the wire onto that pin and having the rest of the plug fit back around the whole affair.
I never touch those connectors again! Maybe I spray something only any more.
I suspect a previous owners mechanic or you may have pulled on the that plug like I did and now you got the gremlin.
I believe it was the wagon that also had issues with the wiring harness going up to the gray connector on the ‘86.
A harness goes down around the engine on all these 240 cars since the beginning before 1978, my oldest car.
Starting with the LH 1.0 and going away from the K Jet system, they made that harness carry different wiring of course!
That’s where the idea of biodegradable insulation has come into play or not compatible with engine cleaners? Take a pick.
My 1984 had its harness rebuilt, I have discovered later, prior to me getting the car.
So, I’m pretty sure it’s now 1986 since thinking it through.
If your wiring harness under the engine going over the controller looks to be original I would say it’s a prime suspect.
Check the wires individually to the controller to see if anything wiggles down inside the connector.
Only pull that plug as a last resort no matter what you do like I had to solder mine back.
I tried to pinch them a little but even that didn’t work on that yellow wire and I think it was the heart of the system.
It might be going indirectly over to the distributor where the Hall Sensor is located beneath the rotor button.
That I don’t know.
The Hall sensor has a reluctor vane wheel in front of a coil of wire. The pluses may go to the controller one way or the other but for the most part they have be very reliable for me.
It was step towards the CPS and other proximity sensors use today in most every thing.
But now, that rotor button above it all can fail due to a crack developing under the sealant to the outer tip. So, on all these distributor cars, carry a spare.
Note:
This is the same distributor system or package used way back to the beginning of Volkswagen’s beetle. Only they had a breaker point gadget and a condenser. Both failure items besides the rotor button’s hidden identity.
On my 1984 only it has two separate relays under the glove box. One for injectors and the other for fuel pumps.
They are interchangeable in case the pumps do not run.
I swapped them around once to verify that one bad when the fuel pumps ran again.
So I opened the bad one up, with my handy LeatherMan and tied a shoe string around the contacts to get back home from downtown.
The pumps or the injectors will be on constantly with the string.
So, you have to pull the fuse or pull the relay back out until you find another relay.
You can look on the sides of the relay on this car and see a diagram.
Some relays today leave you hanging with part numbers only. I hate that planned obsolescence thinking.
On later 240 cars they combined those two relays into one but the problem can still persist as we all know.
It’s harder to diagnose as one side can fail and many times it has been said “due to bad solder joints or traces on the board below.” Let alone a magnetic coil can smoke in any mechanical relay or a capacitor or resistor or integrated chip in electronic one.
Logically it stands up to a reasoning that, If it’s man made or otherwise on earth, it’s subject to change!
We also carry one of those “system” relays plus a wire or two with alligator clips.
It all for good measure to override fuel pumps and doing diagnostics by hand and mind.
It a matter of mind over matter.
If you don’t have a mind, then it doesn’t matter.
😀
Phil
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Thanks Phil! It sounds like you are the man to talk with.
Now after dragging her home and parking inside a warm shop I am trying to figure this out. Of course I pulled the connector on the control box without reading the warning first in order to test for power there. I'll worry about that if I get power to the dash and the signals working. As of now, I doubt my work on the vacuum line has anything to do with this.
I replaced the ignition switch. What a nightmare they made that with slotted screws! No effect. How in the world did they decide the power for the dash lights had to go through a relay? It looks like that may be the problem, even though the factory diagram does not show it connected that way. I will need a younger set of hands to help test the wiring to the ignition switch. I have a neighbor who is a mechanical genius and he is certified on Volvo trucks. He is coming over later with relays and is optimistic that it will be simple.
This car has a fuel pump relay above the driver's feet and it doesn't click. A spare relay acted the same.
There is another relay in the center of the dash and it doesn't click either. I haven't looked under the glove box yet. You may hear from me again, but if I get it running I will report that here.
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Bob, old retired electrical power engineer (not electronics), living off grid and using good old lead acid batteries that are now 99% recycled. (Just an inconvenient truth.)
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Hi Bob,
I'm struggling to access the site, that works sometimes.
I have the Volvo manual for 240 LH 2.0, it has troubleshooting info.
Whats your email, I'll send it to you.
Bill
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