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900, B230 engine. The idle is normal but down the road drops rpm to a rough idle. If I put the car in neutral or park the idle is normal. When I turn the engine off and start over is normal again gear engaged. I may go bad again or sometimes I get home after several miles and still normal. Next day things repeat. If I use the AC seems worse.
Seems like a lack of response to compensate the idle speed "up" when the gear is engaged or the AC, but not always sometime is fine for the whole trip. What can be causing this. Thank you. I have not posted here in years, good little car.
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As others mention, your first suspect should be the IAC. There's a really simple test you can do anytime, any place that's almost guaranteed to tell you if the IAC is involved (I do this as part of routine maintenance to spot any problem developing). While idling, tap the IAC valve a few times with the end of a stick, even a broom handle. If the idle changes (returns to normal) then it's a sticky/dirty/worn IAC. Remove for an attempted cleaning with carb cleaner (or even paint solvent), but be careful not to let it soak lest cleaner get into the motor, shake thoroughly a number of times, rinse to see what comes out, repeat and dry. (BTW, Phil, the LH 2.4 IACs aren't spring loaded like the LH 2.2 ones -the giveaway is that these use a 3-pin connector, not two.) Although you don't want oil residue in it to act as a dirt magnet, if needed you may want to try getting a good spray of WD-40 down to the piston bushing, let stand vertically to soak in a bit, rotate the piston back and forth to work it in (I just flick the whole IAC in my hand to do this) and give it a quick final spray of carb cleaner to remove the excess. For a bad case, I'll repeat this step using 3-in-1 oil to lube the bushing. Also for a bad case, I'll finish by using OBD DTM 2 on port 2 of the diagnostic connector to fully exercise (tic-toc) the IAC from end to end of travel to work it in and confirm operation (see the FAQ), also often temporarily improving its function if you let it repeat a number of times.
Second on your suspect list should be the throttle body. Best to remove it to the bench for a thorough inspection and cleaning (which I do every oil change), including the two brass nippled tiny vacuum ports (if needed, ream them out carefully with an undersized drill bit). The triangular gasket usually separates without damage if you're careful. If not then they're cheap (I always have a spare on the shelf, ordered with my oil filters, also a spare rubber ring for the oil filler cap and a copper crush washer for the drain plug). In a pinch you can cut your own paper gasket from a cereal box. Another thing you can do while idling is spray carb cleaner (or starter fluid or water) around the end of the throttle shaft (under the spring) to see if the idle changes, indicating an air leak at a worn shaft. A little wear in the shaft is normal in these old cars, you just don't want a significant leak that can make for a slightly unstable idle, also this is unmetered air intake not seen by the AMM which makes for lean running conditions (the O2 sensor may not respond quickly enough to adequately deal with this).
Third is a plugged PCV system, something that's often neglected until it becomes serious. A dirty PCV system may include a plugged flame trap element ( NB turbos don't have an element in the flame trap), a plugged small vacuum line (connected to the flame trap) also hoping the oil separator box isn't plugged (difficult to check, if suspected then remove the oil filler cap and try using a hose to see if you can blow any air back into the oil box, if not then it may be completely blocked). Every other oil change I routinely check and clean the whole PCV system.
Fourth, check all air/vacuum hoses for splits at the ends and at the bends (especially the small vacuum line that attaches to the flame trap). Remove and carefully bend and check the accordion air intake tube for splits (often out of sight underneath).
After dealing with all those regular maintenance items, please report back and we can give you further guidance if needed
--
Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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Hi Dave,
I just read your latest post and as usual you are more detailed than I am.
I have six cars. One is a K jet mechanical with auxiliary air valve for warm ups. A heating element changes the idle speed so it in general mimics the warming up of the engine. It is actually very effective if you get the spring tension set correctly from the outside adjustment.
We have come a longs ways from that mechanical injection system but my gosh I have had less trouble with just by keeping fresh gasoline in its veins.
The other cars started in 1984 LH 2.0 for me. The IAC has three pins to move the vane in each direction.
This went on to my 1986 on with three pins but it is a LH 2.2 doing the same thing.
My next cars are 1991, 1992 and 1993. LH 2.4 with some cars getting LH 3.0 with some having a variable resistance throttle switch. I do not have one of those.
I do not know when, from 1986 or the eighties forward, when the IACs changed to the two pins.
I assume that the change over came with ECU improvements somewhere around the 1988-89 EZK-16 and CPS away from distributors with Hall effect sensors.
The ICUs on those were in the engine bay.
The solid or positive return spring IACs was a safety refinement. IMHO
I have not had any problems with excessive idles with the three pin models but I can realize a possible failure. A DIRTY or worn IAC can still raise its ugly head.
I clean both the way you suggest. The three pins you can twist violently to check for a clunk.
On the two or three pin I used a 9 volt alkaline battery to simulate the drop in system voltage during cranking.
I use thin leads going into the connector. Things are narrow in there.
I listen for a nice snap on both types. You want it both ways even on the three pins.
Moving the lead around during pin swaps gets that result.
Plus the battery is a lot lighter to use on a bench š
The lesser current available, in my mind, simulates the ECUs power capability because they are transistors after all and have limited power circuits.
Now I think I have my LH series in order of production correct with my ownerships.
You do a lot of excellent writing and if itās an error you are definitely allowed it!
Itās hard to get as much as you put down in writing and not have it absolutely correct or we as the readers reading or interpreting it wrong!
My chronological order I have missed some years along the way.
This is not say that the rest of the world get changes sooner or later during productions besides to different countries and sold later in life.
I really appreciate your posts with any clarifications and trust me, I read this one a couple time before I said anything.
Between our two analogies I think he should have a good picture of what he is dealing with.
I too need to hear about the results.
š it being written is our only hope to know our efforts worked!
Excuse my mistakes please.š¤«
Phil
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Hey, Phil. The IAC valves changed from the spring loaded design in both the 240 and 700 series when they went from LH 2.2 to LH 2.4, starting in 1989 with the B230F and B234F, and in 1990 with the B230FT. There are no longer contacts wearing grooves into the IAC commutator, so no wear grooves (which was previously an issue) and the IAC's now last considerably longer. Both my LH 2.4 940s are happily on their original IACs with no hint of problems. At 400K km on both 940s, I've never even needed to clean them and my idle is as stable as you could ever ask for.
Having said that, I do spend extra time keeping my throttle bodies and PVC systems scrupulously clean at very oil change, as I recommended in my reply to the OP. I've got it down to a matter of minutes taking the throttle body off for a thorough inspection and a cleaning if needed for any hint of grunge, pulling the flame trap for an inspection and cleaning as needed, and always check my TPS click adjustment when I'm done. I learned the hard way early on with my brand new LH 2.4 B234F to not tinker with throttle body adjustments to try to improve idle unless you know what you're doing. The LH 2.2 systems with the bypass adjustment required a bit more finesse to keep them idling as nice as possible. The K-Jet systems were much more of an art to keep them idling nice.
--
Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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Hi again,
I agree with you wholeheartedly about your post.
I have torn into the three pin IACs to see the grooves. I kinda figured out that since it uses current to move the vane in each direction there was more wear on the commutator and even more at one end where the vane operated the most back and forth. I could see that the groove even began to taper to which I think helped it start start sticking at the end of its life cycle.
I agree that a spring returning the rotor back without using power must reduce arcing under the carbon brushes.
Even though it may take a tiny bit more current to move the rotor under spring tension some stabilization occurs against that force.
It just not there twitching šµāš« with every vibration OR air pulsation.
I figure they had their reasoning to rubber mount it and the AMM too on the 240s.
I donāt know anything about the post models you speak of.
I donāt think I have ever seen a B234. That was an all aluminum 6 cylinder right?
In those years GM and GERMANY experimented with a high silicon content aluminum for engine block.
The Vegaās engine was made in Germany but I cannot say if it was only a block or the whole engine in 1972.
The pistons ran against the block without liners.
Rumors had it that the cost to GM for them was only about $99 ea.
you have to Remember itās 1972 and they only spent NINE million dollars to put that whole car into production. That was unheard of and possibly a record.
It went into production about as fast as it went out too! Even though Iām sure there have been other to do that. Some models of every manufacturer have made their bombs at one time or another.
My brother-in-law had one that he let go into repossession.
No lemon law back then. It really hurt his credit ratings for years!
In fact I would almost say that car model caused the ālemon lawā to slide into motion!
American manufacturers were killing consumers back then and selling some junk!
I learned this my own way as well but I could fix things ever since.
In 1974 Briggs & Stratton lawnmowers didnāt use liners either
You had to pay more to get cast iron liners with a marketing decal.
If you look into their cost today, to make a walk behind lawnmower for our hardware stores, outside of California of course, an inexpensive mower is like $400 I figure the complete engine has to cost only about $150 to make with that kind of ceiling in retail.
The deck and handle hopefully sell the accessory features.
Oh by the way B&S left Milwaukee, Wisconsin in the nineties I think. Milwaukee was not happy about losing those jobs!
This ideal or technology was about that era of Time that castings molds were made of styrofoam versus wood and were left in the sand casting box.
In jewelry itās called the lost āwaxā method. You just remold another styrofoam piece very quickly.
If you look closely onto later engine blocks outer surfaces you could see the flatten tiny bubbles too prove it. I like recognize them some thirty years ago on Saturns.
I assume since, they had to abandon R12 in blowing styrofoam molding, so, the bubbles may not be so pronounced as they were. Of course they may have move on from even method.
Iām not a new car enthusiast enough to go poking my head under hoods with those plastic engine covers either.
Their there to hide other sins from the buyers of FWD or exotic cars for that matter. IMHO
Was that B234 a Scottish or was it Swedish motor?
They were put into the DeLorean stainless steel gull wing car? Long before Telsaās.
Those motors really sucked from what I have read.
Oil leaks or head problems.
How well did yours hold up?
Yes the K jets required finesse that is still needed on the LH.
You have to figure out what they are using to get the same results.
So yes, itās about tuning in, while tuning up!
Have a great day!
Phil
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Hi Phil,
The B234F is a 16-valve DOHC B230 red block and uses the same LH 2.4 injection system. I had one in my 740 and really liked it. A smooth and powerful engine, at 155 HP it puts out almost as much as the B230FT turbo at 165 HP. The B234F first appeared in the 1988 740 GLE in Europe then in 1989 in North America. It carried on a couple of more years in the 740 GLE before being switched to the first of the new 940 series as the 940 GLE model in 1991/92 only, which was pretty much the end for that engine.
On the plus side there's no turbo lag, but on the minus side the torque curve is notably skewed to the right. To deal with that they re-geared the AW71 trans and gave it a lockup torque converter as the AW72L. Lockup worked really well with that engine as a "5th" gear that still had moderate power for passing at freeway speeds while providing extra fuel economy. The AW72L gear ratios still left a lot to be desired, which is why many preferred the optional M47 5-speed manual trans with the B234F (very few were made).
The revamped '89 740 GLE ran into production delays at the Halifax plant getting the B234F engines from Sweden, so the first ones didn't hit the show rooms in North American until January 1990 (dubbed 1989-1/2 models). I was in the market for a new Volvo at the time to replace the '74 144GL I'd had since new (it was getting a bit long in the tooth for use as a young business executive). After checking the early reviews and doing a test run, comparing it to a turbo, I decided to buy the 16-valve. The dealer wouldn't sell the showroom model (there were only one or two in Western Canada at the time), so I had to order mine. Halifax production was just starting to catch up and I didn't receive mine for another two months in mid-April.
Volvo also produced a 2 litre B204F 16-valve for the European market (to avoid a Euro surtax on larger engines) with a respectable 139 HP. Staying within the 2 litre surtax limit, they were able to add a turbo as an option for even more power (to compete with the likes of sporty BMWs) as the B204FT, which produced an impressive 190 HP. That turbo, which was mostly just sold in Italy, was much sought after by B234F types as it can be easily retrofitted to a B234F to produce well over 200 HP!! (unofficially, I've seen it said as high as 300 HP, but I'd guess closer to 230HP with stock wastegate adjustments). Compare that to a 240/700/900 B230F with a mere 116 HP! Unfortunately, production was low and those turbos were always as scarce as hens teeth and as good as impossible to find now.
The B234F is more fuel efficient than a B230FT, which is why Volvo wanted to introduced it. Unfortunately, it quickly gained a reputation as an unreliable engine, leastwise by Volvo standards, so Volvo soon backed off and stayed with the B230FT and their inline front wheel drive engines. The B234F's biggest issue is that it's an interference engine, so if the timing belt ever breaks you're looking at bent valves, and if it breaks at speed you can be looking at damaged valve seats and even damaged pistons. Worse still, the early B234Fs (to 1990) had a number of timing belt mechanism design flaws that could lead to even more broken belts (tensioner adjustment, oil pump pulley and balance belt drive pulley). Good 16-valve heads are next to impossible to find now, which doomed many of these cars to an early trip to the grave yard. It also has a serpentine belt for the twin balance shafts (to reduce harmonic vibrations) and if that ever breaks it normally takes out the main timing belt as well, so again a head crash. Both belts require special procedures for installation and adjustment (which is why I wrote the FAQ feature article that many consider the DIY bible on B234F timing belt replacement).
--
Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for the run down on Volvos engine history that took place after and during the purchases of my fleet of used 240s.
With you talking about the horsepower racing it helped explain Volvoās advertising with phrases like āblowing the doors off V8ās.ā
Iām remembering that terminology only because I didnāt know anything about several smaller valves replacing one or two, large turbocharging, supercharging or some inter-cooling buzz.
It was truly a mixed bag of models competing on the global stage.
When it comes around to variable valve timing and the driving of those components are still putting engine in the grave yards long before reaching appreciable mileages of the 240s.
It appeared to me they (the industry) wanted engines to wear out with the bodies that rusted in America.
I donāt know if Volvo kept up with body undercarriage coatings later either?
I donāt believe the American domestics ever got any as it was truly an item a person had to purchase here from dealerships or body shops.
Iām glad to see the poster has given you some credit at being as close to an expert as one can get.
The word experiences put you in the realms of an expert and being to express those findings in your posts has given you lots of credibility.
Art Benstein is one in my arena and you have a blend of the whole Volvo line from what is see in that last post.
Both of you have blended your observations of the things you have dissected and concluded to be an accurate validation of Volvoās evolutions.
As far as this thread goes, it seems he does have a bit of TLC to do.
The whole idle working and then not, is a failure of controlling a RPM reading thatās āgood or badā that goes with a failing CPS but he hasnāt said how it starts up?
What is the routine of the car starting and while during itās warming up?
More idle information or any characteristics is needed.
During this time the ECU is running programs per the AMM and later the O2 sensor.
If itās Okay, then I lean towards the throttle body area too.
The engine needs to know when to idle and thatās two different RPMs loaded by AC or not. The AC idle is triggered by the ECU that depends on the throttle switch/air plate position as well as the air through it or around it by the IAC that appears to respond OK.
It has been brought up about other outside air influxes that he is going to be working on.
My key is, he says the ISSUE gets created more sincerely when he activates it?
What state of tune are the spark plugs or the ignition system?
This question in general as far as any misfires?
My next thought is never want to blame any major electronics that we cannot test definitely.
So that leaves the crusty little intermittence group of gremlins to chase out.
As always š¤
Phil
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It turned out to be a bad coolant temperature sensor. makes sense after the fact. The car did better in winter. Terribly in hot days.
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Hi,
Itās not the first time one of those sensors to be furtive in a diagnosis procedure.
On the 240-900 red blocks they are in a hard to access area.
I see it took a month to chase it down.
It can be done from the ECU wiring side for a diagnostic method but that isnāt heart warming either.
I donāt know how hard it was for you to find it, let alone, replacing it on that type of engine.
The subject line says B234F. Was that correct?
Iām happy for you š.
Phil
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Hi Phil,
It's an ugly process to log-in to Brickboard lately with Google
apparently black listing some browsers.
I'm wondering why it took over a month to find the ECT messed up.
If he bothered to check OBD codes as suggested he would have found
an A2 1-2-3 code "...ECT signal missing or faulty".
He certainly gets a gold star for reporting what solved his problem.
Happy motoring, Bill
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Hi Bill,
You have changed the thread subject a little but you have justified your action.
I wondered it it was just my machine having issues with the Brickboard.
I agree the Brickboard is getting hammered with advertising.
I go out to https://www.sudoku-solutions.com/ and it behaves nothing like the Brickboard.
No subscriptions and I see 80% of my screen while not scrolling!
I pretty much gave up on TV.
Having 65ā screen of ads blaring at me and @ 100 watts of my power for five plus minutes got me to slink away.
Doing Sudoku or to post an answer is about all I can stand or sit through in the evenings before I nod out. š«¤š
Iām pretty sure several posters are experiencing the same ugliness, as you call it, to open up the Brickboard site with it codes.
It is losing lots of traffic from those persons that will not spend the time over such Tomfoolery.
He may have had the car fixed for a couple weeks now?
Yes, with him giving us an update, so much later that is highly commendable!
I have noticed the proliferation of landing an advertisement in the middle of a post that causes us to scroll down to see BB content.
The Advertising seems to load up right before the rest of the thread as it refills on the sides and bottom too.
It must take buffertime to rotate the ads over to those it hasnāt shown yet.
That is, If the site doesnāt drop out before that.
When you change tabs, it dumps in another string in quite quickly with its content shifting the information content part of the page around.
That makes my eyes go šµāš«.
So much for nano or milli seconds as itās hunting for ten more subjects of content after each click.
I make one request and they slide ten in before my requested data sees a glimmer.
Luckily when we are composing an answer to a post they stay at the bottom under my keyboard out of the middle of my screen.
Whoops, shouldnāt say that. š¤«
Selling data by the gig or unlimited itās still the same overpriced game as they are getting paid from all kinds of other angles.
I hadnāt thought about Google pushing on other browsers to slow down their searches. That might even be a bit much for them to do.
I certainly know the service providers try to limit the amount of speed in processing as that affects their bottom line.
Itās why the subscription rates get a jostle in marketing despite prime time slow downs to less demanding customers.
I cannot count the number of times cable TV āupgradedā my set top box.
Todayās Internet modems now monitor demands continuously and adjust yours accordingly.
I use to use a āseasonalā service for cameras @ only one house at a time.
I come home occasionally in between the six months to take care of the property.
They drop it to around ten megabytes per second and still charge for one third as much as if I was getting nearer the āUP TOā 300 MB.
It slowly speeds up but itās still capped if I use streaming.
I have decided itās not worth the hassle and they only let you have it for up to exactly six months to the day. Switching over to fiber optic service providers averages it back to being less and things for me runs fine on their 100 MB.
So far thereās not as many customers on it yet. They will get as greedy soon.
Since we are at the end of the line seeing these kind of provocations, I would hope the search engines have a way to put a data log set of eyes on any of Googles behavior to prove that Google or browsers are predatory.
Everything is logged and being studied for the new age of BIG DATA.
It is wasting a lot of peopleās time waiting while habits are collected.
We are paying dearly in money installments for the speeds that has been proven to be manipulated already.
Not connecting or running things at dial up speeds of twenty years ago or mobile tower speeds today is truly an unforgivable greed.
Maybe I should have started a new thread.š¤
Phil
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Hi again Phil,
It shouldn't be a total loss and another duplicate post
When trying to log-in today I got an error code
did a page-back with my browser and found I was logged in.
Then made a reply to you and beside the free ads in your face got another error code when trying to submit the post.
Then I found the post went in twice.
So now I'll click submit and ignore the error code and get another coffee
Phil I found titanium exhaust manifold studs are available from China and England. I got three from the UK. These will never corrode into the flange.
I ordered three for the turbo to downpipe flange and the muffler mavens don't want anything to do with changing out the old studs. These are the guys best able to do it. They also know about Randy Starkie's famous warning about busted bolts it seems.
Cheers, Bill
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Hi Phil,
I was unable to access last night, and this AM and the Brickboard server is acting like it needs its last rites.
Please put up your E-mail address so we can chat when the server here is busted.
You gave a Gmail link before and I got no answer. Try again.
Thanks, Bill
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Hi Bill,
I tried to reply back on a highlighted portion of you message from the Brickboard so maybe it would give you my address so I guess it hasnāt worked as it has been sometime since that post was alive.
I only have one email address and donāt use a burner email one but I got your email request with a bunch on numeral and letters.
So it must be encrypted to stop that from back or over to go around the Brickboardās server stash.
Iām not to savvy in what I propose below but will give it a try.
I can give you a hint to think it through on.
This is so the robots wonāt glean it from here or in-between some big data sources.
The first part is like my name but itās what dirtās called in a hole.
The second part is not a hole or a box but several of those like containers double lined.
No numerals.
Then of course itās government mail sent by commercialization.
Phil
I will still have to monitor my junk mail unless you put in āBill or BB on the Brickboardā somehow to tag my contacts to catch it.
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Hi Phil,
Too bad that the the bulk of normal Brickboard functions are kaput,
I had my info in the profile. Not to mention that subscribers could swap email.
I feel lucky when Brickboard works at all lately.
Part two of your riddle is Google proof, not that they don't already know more
about you than your mom or wife does.
"Container" could be a gas tank, casket, something your Chinese food comes in.
Yikes!, How many guesses do I get?
This is worse than the 50-50 rule.
That's when you have a 50% chance of getting it right,
You have a 90% certainty of getting it wrong.
(This is the house edge with on-line gambling, and pyramid schemes)
More clues needed.
Hurry up before it's too late, Bill
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Ok I got yours from your profile and sent you an email
Look in junk for me. š
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Thank for your information. TLC. I will start there. It does not seem to me a throttle issue or the position sensor. O2 sensor, yes, I think is the type that would create weird problem like what I have. The car starts up perfect. I don't need warm up. I just go. You can show off with this old volvo in red lights. When they turn green and I step on the gas she takes off like a rocket with no hesitation and you think how in the hell the volvo engineers did it.
I will post again when I check a few things.
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Thank for your information. TLC. I will start there. It does not seem to me a throttle issue or the position sensor. O2 sensor, yes, I think is the type that would create weird problem like what I have. The car starts up perfect. I don't need warm up. I just go. You can show off with this old volvo in red lights. When they turn green and I step on the gas she takes off like a rocket with no hesitation and you think how in the hell the volvo engineers did it.
I will post again when I check a few things.
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Thank you to everyone involved. I see I have some work to do. Many things to check. I don't think the idle valve is sticking. Thant would be more consistent problem. The low idle is either when the gear is engaged or the AC or both. If I turn the AC of and put the car in neutral the idle returns to normal. That is the puzzle. I will check the vacuum system. Thanks again everyone, I can't follow the high tech talk much. You are all experts
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Hi,
Yes you are right about being gone from the board. Your profile has you living in Alabama by default.
I havenāt seen that in quite awhile. It is sort of a shame though as to know what type of climate the car has lived in can help obtain possible clues to the condition of the vehicle.
Iām putting together an idea like the other poster that the IAC is sticking to some extent but thatās not totally it.
You see, the IAC is spring loaded for a positive return to closed.
The ECU operates it after get a signal from the āthrottle switchā saying to idle the engine or the driver is stepping on the gas.
There a transition to start an into a program to add power. So you say itās not stumbling or hesitation involved so that can put it back on the IAC being dirty territory.
Now that I got you thinking the throttle switch think that it has a plate inside the mechanism that can get smutty. The throat of the air intake has tiny vacuum ports that control fuel rail pressure so thereās another cause for erratic idling.
And then there is the clause that extra air is sneaking into the intake manifold from a bad vacuum hose.
And then thereās another extra air issue that can come from the larger hose connecting to the throttle body.
It connects the AMM to the throttle body.
You cannot have any holes or tiny cracks in the volutes or it will affect running mixture that includes idle greatly.
So basically Iām saying you need to give the car some TLC.
Thereās no one simple answer but to say it needs some attention.
Work with and think with what Iām trying to put into this and more clues will guide all of us on the board to a more definitive answer.
Ultimately your time and patience will fix this problem but you took a great step in the right direction, so, āgood on ya,ā as they say in New Zealand. I visited there once many years ago. š more sheep than people, I was told.
By the way Iām a 240 man so its problems were inherited over to the 900.
I do not know how much difference there is but the basic principles are in that car and I have never seen under the hood of a 900, except at junkyards. š¤
Good luck and I hope this helps clean or clears things up for you.
Phil
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Possibly the idle control valve is sticking. Have you tried cleaning it out?
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Hi _?_,
Start by checking OBD codes at A2 & A6.
Post back, Bill
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