Ok - I thought it would be easier to start a new thread - I have been through the ringer trying to get my timing belt and distributor rotor to stay tight and keep running without something throwing the intermediate shaft (and therefore the rotor) out of position. I think that is set and stable now because every time I start the car it runs and now keeps running even though it idles very rough.

One thing I've been finding is that most of my problems have been because I've dropped a different engine in and may or may not have hooked everything up right. So I'm leaning towards something not being connected right... or tight enough... or not connected, etc.

In any case the car now starts and stays running... idling rough... black soot on spark plugs... white smoke coming out exhaust.

timing is currently correct, belt is new and I'm hoping sprockets and tensioner is all tight so it won't somehow slip.

I am fairly certain that all of my hoses are good or new and that there are no vacuum leaks after the AMM

Fuel pressure is 43.5 psi when the pumps run without the car running

Fuel pressure is 44.5 with FPR vacuum line disconnected (and capped off) and the car running

Fuel pressure drops to 39 psi when I reconnect the vacuum line, I couldn't check the residual pressure but I think it is ok.

Compression on cylinder 1 is 161 psi, cylinder 3 is 165 psi, and cylinder 4 is above 152 but cylinder 2 is 130 (significantly lower but I believe still within tolerances)

No codes fire on OBD ports 2 or 6 (I haven't tried anything but the first diagnostic control function 1, just learned that there are 2 more functions that will flash LED information)

So my questions are:

1. if I mixed up the wires to the different fuel injectors would the timing of their squirting of fuel be off from the timing of the spark?

2. If my valves (which never got adjusted because the engine was running before 12 or so years ago when it was removed from the car) need adjusted would this cause rich running and poor idle?

3. Machine man suggested (in my earlier thread) that the EGR might not be functioning - is there a way to test the EGR function.

4. should I swap in a spare ECU from my other 1990 240 to eliminate the ECU as the problem?

Thanks to all who have helped me so far... I am learning a great deal through all of this but mostly I'm learning how much I don't know!

Jack
--
2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!

​​I don't know if all the folks who helped me will see this but I wanted to post that...

... I have good news - I'm 99% sure I have found the problem - I AM AN IDIOT!!! (My wife says she's 100% sure)

After thorough study of the FAQ discussing how the RPM Sensor (CPS?) works I began to realize that I probably failed way back (when engine and transmission were out of the car) to install the drive plate (ring gear?, flex plate? flywheel? slotted wheel,??) lined up correctly between the engine and the torque converter. The RPM Sensor couldn't read the timing correctly if this was misaligned!


So after realizing my probable idiocy and contemplating the FAQ info. I began slowly, bit by bit removing the transmission from my 240 ... so I could see if I was right about my failure. I finally got it off 2 days ago and confirmed that the slotted wheel was way off the proper alignment described in the FAQ section of the brickboard.

I believe I have it lined up correctly but I was hoping someone could help me figure out how to post a picture of the new alignment so someone (who is not me) could confirm that I have it in the right spot before I put the tranny back on.


Anyway thank you to all for your help with this way back when I was trying to figure it out (assuming they see this post).

If I can attach a picture I will add it to this thread for anyone's confirmation

Once again learning what "amhik" means

Strackerjack

--
2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!

Hi John,

I really can appreciate your last line of communication.
“Thanks to all who have helped me so far... I am learning a great deal through all of this but mostly I'm learning how much I don't know!”

Isn’t that and always the case with the amount of X factors mixed in with our imaginations.
If there is a boundary of knowledge or having a boundary defined in the cosmos even, we would then ask, what’s beyond that?
I have written some off to what “we think know” being very limited and the facts that there’s the present and there’s infinity in the equation.

Luckily we only have to deal with those things we made to the best of our abilities of which occasionally last longer than other items.
We have this dilemma with our self imposed confinements (money) and limitations driven by survival need’s first. After that it’s about keeping life interesting enough to fix things we can.
Here is where us fix- it types dwell. 🤫

You did mention the EGR so this engine has one I assume?
What year engine is it?
The soot is still appearing on the spark and that fact is talking to us?
Could be that there is excess air entering but not the fresh stuff?

If the engine is prior to the 1989 and without the newer fuel management system you might have an issue with the coolant temperature sensor being not compatible with the ECU. The mechanics of the engine remained pretty much the same as usual and as far as I know useable.

I think there are different color ones from the eighties to ninety cars with EKZ or EZK system. Slightly different ways to obtain timing and controlling spark but the basics are equal.

This sensor change might explain it running to rich.
It’s not winter time OR could it be a bad one OR a wiring issue so I can see why you are leaning one ear up and one ear down … thinking. 🤔
Also, I think it “might” be possible that the throttle switch connector can be crossed. I have only read about it by some posters but have never investigated it.
I have a problem with it reaching to each one let alone with the pins inside being three versus two.
Maybe it’s the knock sensor or instrument gauge wiring to be looked into.
I had better stop thinking on those possibilities without more knowledge myself.
So you are not a first person to go down that road looking for answers. 😊

The EGR also has a controller on the strut tower.
I have discussed in other threads about their arrangement and how the valve has to vent the vacuum line to turn off.
The little piece of foam rubber rots. It’s the filter on top under a cap that gets plugged. I replaced it with polyester fiber fill but it still gets dirty over the years. I’d say about every ten has been my experience but at least pieces don’t get down inside it. I washed it out with denatured alcohol. No more EGR/ CEL lights.
BUT … you are not getting either lights or codes but the ECU looks for a temperature change.

It must be getting a signal back from the body of the EGR within the time limits of the program?

As far as checking the EGR for it to be sealing off the exhaust port, I have never ever had to mess with mine but if you took a connection loose or off, would think it shouldn’t pass air into the engine as it is pulled open with vacuum.
These engines run rather clean anyways.
The oxygen sensor arrangement double checks that.
So the issue of engine maintenance isn’t as bad as the first smog engines.
Those had them directly under a carburetor onto a flat aluminum plate.
It in turn got eaten away by exhaust gases and caused very rough idling.
That item got tossed out of my old Ford 100 before inspections along with its vapor canister that filled up with water from the right front tire spray.
The truck only came with a 12,000 mile warranty so it was easy for them to wait me out!
I did, no more Fords or new vehicles ever again.
Shopping for better designs and “used” comes with some debugging already.
It was a pitiful 1974-5 saga for Ford’s products in these times.
The gas embargo years really put our American shorts in the wringer that still get bunched up.😬

I’m glad to know that you are giving the 240s the respect they deserve.

I’m still having to think on why you have white smoke? Blue, black and white are indicators.
There some contradictions here in the assessment.

Are you sure it’s not water vapor? Incoming air has humidity and therefore water vapor.
Does anything condense on your hand or can you smell the monoxide in abundance when it running?
Incomplete combustion varies the amounts because of the lack of heat to thin it all out.
Apparently it is starting to run long enough to get into an operating zone but is it warm enough to be read correctly to the ECU.
So it’s back to coolant temperature in my mind.
An accurate 92 degrees centigrade thermostat is best IMO.
I think the fuel pressure is on target for the injection cones.
The cylinder heating and air content is affecting all the cylinders.
Your one cylinder doesn’t appear to be all that under specification considering it’s a cranking gauge test. They do request only a 10% differential in an ideal world.
There’s lots of engines running just fine if the ECU can determine its signals are righteous. The system is designed to be self tuning very quickly.

What number OR heat range spark plugs are you running?
I think you stated the gaps set on .65 mm that is a little tight when .028 is my preferred. So .71mm is closer but not much more or it goes the other way.
These engines do best without any fancy tipped and expensive plugs.
Bosch silver or super name.
I think the set is Bosch 7900 and has a copper or nickel or both plated for an electrode.
It depends on how much description a vendor puts in the page.
In stainless steel nickel is for heat resistance and chromium for its rust resistance quality.
Henry Ford made it a more popular product to replace chrome plated trim that has gone to a vapor coated plastic.
A limitation on what we build or use = $$.

Plugs were made to be inexpensive by design and haven’t changed as much as they want to you to buy into.
Auto store Spark plugs are similar to French fries of fast food chains.
$2.50 to 3.50 for a potato?
Certain ones and brands for some cars have become overly profitable to a naive customers.
RA shows ours to be $2.12 each of which is about right for a lawnmower too.
In the seventies it costs $.25 to make a plug out the factory door to any manufacturer, packagers and on to other wholesalers.
It is probably automated and faster today, so a $1 tops and in flats like eggs.

I hope this chatter can give you more to ponder over and provide encouragement to keep at it!
You can learn what ever you really desire to learn.
😊
Phil

Ok I have gathered some information regarding my rough idle situation

In no certain order

I ran the engine with rough idle and it lasted seven minutes before stalling out.

While it was running I put my hand in the white smoke exhaust out of the tail pipe and I got water and black specks on my hand along with white smoke and some bad smell.

I found the engine stamping under the exhaust manifold and behind the motor mount - it reads as follows:

B230 890809 (then a symbol that looks like a backwards Pac-Man) then 13

My Jetronic computer stayed in the car from the old engine and has this number on it:

Bosch 0 280 000 951

While running this time it fired a CEL - 1-1-1 in port 6 and in the 2 position ... the code read 1-1-3 indicating fuel mixture to rich /lean.

I am 65% sure that I put my old engine's EGR into the engine that is now in my car which would suggest this engine probably did not have an EGR valve before I cleaned it and painted it.

I'm not sure how to find out what year engine this is from my stamped block number (maybe call a Volvo dealership?) but I know I put a new ECT in this engine and the new ECT was purchased for a 1990 Volvo 240 from FCP Euro.

Next I'm gonna try to figure out how to tell if I have strong spark or not and maybe disassemble the intake and look for air leaks on all the hoses maybe swap out injectors to make sure one is not leaking.

This is quite the detective job and I'm certain I'll be finding a stupid mistake that I made

Thanks Phil and everyone else considering this conundrum!
--
2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!

Hi John,

Just a quick note as it is late for me.

I was tinkering around on my 1993 tonight and noticed it does not have an EGR valve.
My eighties cars do not either.
The ‘93 car originally came up from Arizona from a hertz rental to a corporate entity.
The PO got it from them or Hertz themselves and later moved it up to Reno Nevada.
It was from them I purchased the car in 2017 and brought it into California. It cleared the smog testing and title requirements just fine.
I never had a CEL on this car so I don’t know if it would give me one. You just cannot look at a menu screen as they are before scanners like OBD II. OURS are classified as OBD I that made things wonky as far as any standards went with a blinking light in an instrument cluster even.
The EGR signal was added in a minimal manner then it was setup to bring in customers to get maintenance every two years or so. Then came headaches if you have a light on for a loose gas cap!
Cars have alway been a luxury elsewhere but us Americans never gave its “due recognition” as the masses of them covered our roads.

If I get time I will check my 1991 that has an EGR. I seem to remember it has a 931. It has always been a California car according to records the PO had.

I also have a 1992 California w/ automatic transmission.
It’s the only one I have as the others are all stick shifts.
I used to think it was a transmission thing with ECUs.
But apparently it’s more of what is sold what state . A DMV-VIN entry thing.
You are cleared on that so the engine is just a swap out. IMHO
It can have an EGR or doesn’t just as long as it passes emissions and inspection.

Rapid RPM changes of a stick shift causes emission issues. Some brands are no sticks shifters but paddle shift automatics sneak through.

What is the status of your engine number or codes versus years have over the body codes?


I do not access to it until it’s closer to winter time as I turn into an anti-rain bird.
So I looked into the numbers on the ECU and it is definitely a 951 ECU.
The adding an EGR might make a tuning conflict if not done correctly.

Got sleepy got to stop.

Later
Phil

It appears Bosch 0280000951 (Volvo p/n 6842115-5) may be a non-EGR ECU. In the Volvo 240 Pocket Data Booklet it's not indicated either way, but is shown as non-EGR in some online databases.

One way to determine whether or not your ECU supports an EGR valve is to disconnent the temperature wire. Start the engine and you should get a Check Engine light. Then switch off and read the codes. In port 2 (fuel ECU) you should get code 3-4-4 "EGR temperature signal absent or faulty" (if it supports an EGR) and in port 6 (ignition controller) you should get a corresponding 4-1-3 ("EGR temperature signal absent or faulty" (if it supports an EGR). If you don't get these codes then there's no sensing of how hot the exhaust gases are getting when the EGR is opening. Now as I recall, I accidentally left the temperature wire off once and didn't get a code until I'd driven for a good 20 minutes, so keep that in mind if you don't get a code and try driving with it disconnected for a while.

Now it turns out it's the ignition controller that operates the EGR valve. You might need to go through the Bosch p/n exercise again to figure out which of the EZ116-K controllers support or don't support EGR (I'm unfamiliar with that). Simpler is to use OBD DTM 3 in port 6 (ignition system) to continuosly operate the EGR, which you can either feel with your hand or hear (see the FAQ). If you don't hear or feel it operate then either the EGR valve is faulty (as in stuck) or the engine can't support an EGR valve.

In such a case, it may be just as simple to delete the EGR valve (plugging off the ports) than trying to find the right controllers. Running without an EGR valve doesn't really matter, it's mostly for emmissions, so isn't a big deal unless you're subject to emissions inspection, in which case you may flunk.
--
Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now

Thanks Phil!
Here are some of my responses:

"I really can appreciate your last line of communication." ""I'm learning how much I don't know""

Yeah - it seems there are a lot of things that can cause rough idle... I really should say I'm learning that I don't know as much as my pride thought I did! 🙄

"You did mention the EGR so this engine has one I assume?"

I think I may have added my old engine's EGR to this engine which may not have had one - it's been 3-4 years since I assembled the engine on a stand and I kept thinking I would regret not writing down everything I did... For once I was right on something! 😭

I am 90% certain I did not get the ECU from the donor engine car but I have quite a few old ECUs so I may have one that would work with the old engine... now that it's newly installed in a different car... But first I will find out the stamping on the engine to see what the serial number is and try to figure out how old the engine is.

"Does anything condense on your hand or can you smell the monoxide in abundance when it running?"

I will check that next - the exhaust is pretty smelly - maybe monoxide but I'm not good with smell identification - the exhaust might be a little bit bluish in color but it seems white to me.

"Apparently it is starting to run long enough to get into an operating zone but is it warm enough to be read correctly to the ECU."

How long do you think I should let it idle for it to get in the operating zone?

...

Let me check some of the things you've told me and respond to your other suggestions after that

I'm gonna look for:

air leaks around the intake manifold

Engine age

Condensation on my hands while in the exhaust stream

Spark plug type (NGK but I don't know their heat range?)

ECT sensor type

Thanks for the encouragement Phil!



--
2 1990 Volvo 240s - 1 is my son's sedan the other my 245 in restoration, 1 1999 S70 is my current daily driver until I can get back into the 245!

Yes, I'd also think hard about the EGR valve being at least part of your problem.

A failed EGR valve can cause very rich running, meaning a poor idle, sooty plugs, smoke out the exhaust and notably poor mileage. The low tech approach is to suck on the vacuum line and you should be able to see the diaphragm move or else stick your fingers in to check. If it's stuck open, consider temporarily inserting a blocking plate in the intake manifold flange to disable it and see if that helps (after re-cleaning the plugs).

Yes, consider swapping in another ECU for testing, especially if it's from an EGR engine. ECUs are sometimes different for EGR and non-EGR engines. Some ECUs reportedly work with both, which I suspect is mostly EGR ECUs working well with a non-EGR engine. What's the Bosch part number on the current ECU? (Bosch p/n starts 0280). A Google search can find you a few ECU lookup tables to see if it's noted as EGR or non-EGR. Note that Bill Garland's ECU tables, provided to him by user ZJZ here, came from a variety of official and unofficial sources, so try to find one by Volvo or Bosch.

Is there a cold start injector? If that was leaking you could easily have those symptoms. I thought they always used the EGR port on the back of the intake manifold, so I expect you don't have one. ECUs are designed to either work with or not work with a cold start injector.

Another classic candidate for rich running is a faulty FPR, as you've already tried to test. The FAQ here has a fair bit of info.

If you haven't found it yet, even better is to refer to the Volvo 240 LH 2.4 green Service Manual (1989-on) which can be found here in the OzVolvo technical archives along with numerous other manuals
https://ozvolvo.org/archive/?download=VFAzMTM2MS0xX0xILUpldF8yLjRfQjIzMC5wZGY=

--
Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now