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EDIT: car is a 1995 940 wagon. It has the older, Bendix booster.
Basically what it says in the subject. I've read that one can install p80 front calipers and brackets (and longer hoses, I think) onto a 7xx / 9xx to improve feel, or something. So has anyone here done this, and what are your thoughts?
I'm asking because while starting a routine brake job this afternoon, I found one of my front caliper slider pins to be absolutely seized into the bracket. So I could do the smart thing, buy a bracket and be done with it. But of. course I can't seem to miss an opportunity to further ruin my car, so I'm thinking if I were ever to do the caliper swap, this would be the time. I really should replace the hoses anyway.
Thanks
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Following up, I freed my stuck slider. To my surprise, it doesn't look as bad as I thought. Some flaky crust at the boot end, for sure, but the majority of the length looks clean. And the free play after a light cleaning seems no bettor or worse than the other (upper) pin. Upper pin looking properly greased, and all.
I noticed the boots are OG Girling, and aside from the one I burnt with the torch, are pliable and intact. Issue must have been an oversight on the grease for the one stuck pin.
So I did it this way: Pulled caliper off, but left bracket on car this time.
Just to have something in progress while I stepped away to change into work clothes, I peeled back the boot and shot some PB in there. Was expecting to end up soaking the end of the bracket off the car.
Used another Vice Grip with different jaw style. Gave some rotational force (less than the other day), and found it moved a bit. More PB, and gentle back and forth until it rotated more. Shot PB a total of four times as I rotated the pin 360 deg.
Once it felt fairly free, I tapped the plier with a hammer (lightly), and the pin slid out. I flushed the hole out with more PB, and am heading out to blow it dry, and smear some Naval Jelly in there (and on pin).
Clean that out, reassemble with fresh Sil-Glide brake grease, and will be good to go for a few days until I get replacement boots.
Thanks to Dave and Bill for encouraging me to press on with the extraction. I'm glad to have veteran fellows to learn from.
-Wilson
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Congratulations on getting the pin out. If it's anything less than virgin, also possibly less than perfectly straight after all your heat and efforts, then consider replacing it. You can also use a micrometer to check for uniform wear down the pin. The actual amount of wear compared to a new pin is usually surprisingly little, which is why I say the bushings wear as much if not more than the pins and it's obvious when you wiggle them to check the slop. Any tapered wear might make seizing up again more likely. Depending on how much heat you used, you may well have ruined the temper. Rockauto has them and they're not expensive.
Rockauto also has the caliper repair kit rubber in assorted kits. They've got a genuine Lucas SJ1229 kit on a giveaway wholesaler clearance for an entire $1.50 at the moment. If I'd seen that the other day I'd have grabbed it along with the rad hoses I just ordered. Note that it's incorrectly listed as for the rears, but obviously it's for the fronts and checking that part number elsewhere indicates the picture is correct. The picture shows it does two calipers. Note that I bought a similarly pictured Raybestos kit from Rockauto a few years agoand when it arrived it was just for one caliper. A quick email to them with a pic and they shipped me a second for free. I usually buy the Raybestos kits as it's a brand I've come to trust over the years for brake pads, but the other seal kits are likely quite adequate for the job.
Be sure to use spray brake cleaner to get to the bottom of the caliper pin bores. A brass wire bottle brush (Harbour Freight and elsewhere) can be used in a drill to polish up the bushing and get grunge free from the bottom. You don't want any dirt in there. I usually end up packing too much Sil-Glide into the bore and end up having to use a C-clamp to press it in and have the grease come squirting out at the neck. For a while it acts like a shock absorber to help retract the pad, but soon dissipates under brake heat to normal action.
--
Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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Yeah, I was pleased to extract it without (apparently) damaging anything. Little surprise that a pin on the other side (they were both lower) was seized as well; this one far easier to free, though. That explains why the car didn't pull, methinks. My use of heat was a token effort before giving up, and I believe I didn't use enough to damage or alter anything. Visually, the pin was not bent. Good tip on mic-ing them to check for wear - an idea that hadn't occurred to me. By the time I read your message, all was reassembled. I did flush the bore with soapy water, then brake clean and dried with compressed air. The brush on a drill idea is brilliant. I didn't have a suitable brush on hand. I wiped them out with an alcohol soaked cotton swab, though. I also swapped them left to right per your suggestion--seems like a good idea, while also satisfying my obsessive compulsive (dis)order.
The body of my car is pleasantly rust free, at least for a New England car. However, everything around the brake area is pretty rusty. Bad enough that I observed water leaking out the opposite end of one of the driver's side caliper bracket while cleaning. As I'm strapped for time presently; scrambling to get things done before my kids are off school for the summer, and I have even less time. Come fall, I plan to take the car off the road for a few weeks, and address everything properly. In the short term, though, I'm going back in to replace all the pin boots and brake pads (more on that in a bit). I should find where the water is leaking, and plug with JB Weld, although a replacement should really be done, I suppose. Now that I'm thinking about it, maybe I'll buy some clean take-off calipers with brackets, rebuild them off the car (which I can do in the evening after kids are in bed), and make a quick job of it with regards to time spent on the car. I also have to replace all four dust shields. I'll leave that until this fall.
Oh yeah, I have two of those Lucas kits in my cart. Not to rub it in, but they are down to $1.09 at the moment. I don't want to hoard, but... I'll place the order today, once I'm sure of the pads.
Now about the brake pads: I used the ones which came with the rotors, and only once I had the wheels back on, I noticed the swept area of the pads doesn't match the rotors. Specifically, the pads don't cover the friction part of the rotor all the way across at the hub end. There's at least 1/8" that's not covered. The backing plates match what came off, but the curve on the hub end (bottom?) is exaggerated compared to the old ones. I haven't bother to bed them in, because I'll obviously get a better fitting set.
Hold up, a minute: why the heck would I "use the pads that came with the rotors?" Or even buy them that way in the first place? Well, the fashion bug bit me when I saw an absolutely ridiculous price on R1 Concepts drilled, slotted and coated, complete with pads (mis-priced--they went up four-fold--cheaper than cheap basic rotors). I never intended to use the pads, but when the rears started to squeal (not metal on metal, but getting there), I just did them when I found a free moment, not having bothered to select and buy my choice of pads. I was quite surprised to find that the included pads worked really well on the rears, so decided to try them up front. Well I should have matched them up better. Lesson learned.
Anyway, I'm tempted to try ceramics again. For years I swore by Akebonos, as I don't clean my car often. Sure, the initial bite isn't as good as organics or semi-metallics, but you get used to it. With this car not having the best initial bite to begin with, I felt I should go back to a grippier compound. But I also have a set of white painted Satellites (again, fashion), and might get tired of the dust. I see Rock Auto has Brembo Ceramics (didn't even know they did pads) for less than Akebono. I might give those a try. Considering my pins were seized, I figure they'll feel at least as good as the semi-metallics I was fine with before.
Anyone with thoughts on Brembo pads (or different compounds on these cars generally), feel free to weigh in. I see there's some discussion on this right now in Kitty's thread. I'm inclined to agree one can't go wrong with OE Volvo. Except now I'm posing as one of the cool kids, and I want to minimize the dust. I've never regretted going with ceramics on previous vehicles.
-Wilson
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My 2 cents…. Zimmerman rotors with Volvo pads are the best all-round choice for performance and longevity.
This is a little off-topic but possibly still relevant. When my 240 needed rotors and pads, I decided to try Brembo rotors based on their reputation. They quickly warped. Disappointed! Will never buy any Brembo products again! Later I discovered Zimmerman rotors. Enough said….
--
Will I buy another Volvo??? We'll see....
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Same here. Thumbs down on Brembo rotors (which I've used on and off for years), big thumbs up on Zimmermann (which I originally used decades ago and have now gone back to). Definitely worth a premium price. I really lucked out last fall and got two sets of front Zimmermann Coat-Z on distributor closeout at half price. Only needed one set at the time, but bought the last four they had knowing I'd never regret it. They're now on the shelf earmarked for my other 940 the moment the Bosch Quietcast fronts start acting up. I'm also done with Bosch Quietcasts. The Bosch Quietcasts that were on the other car had to be replaced prematurely due to developing uneven rust pitting and uneven bedding material (used with the Bosch Quietcast pads, so no excuse for that) which made for excessive brake pulsation when hot on the highway.
As noted in another recent post, I'm now into using Pagid pads on the fronts and have been happily using blue box Volvo pads on the rears for decades.
Which rear rotors do you like? I've not zeen Zimmermann rears available in North America, only in Europe. The Coat-Z for all Volvo RWDs with the later rear ATE brakes are their prod# 610.1171.20, while their slotted Sport Coat-Z are prod# 610.1171.52. I'm going with genuine ATE for the rears at the moment.
--
Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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Thanks J and Dave,
I've used Zimmerman once in the past on my former Volvo (V50, for which rears were available:-). I bought them on reputation, and they were fine. I generally don't have issues with brakes. I realize how stupid that sounds considering my stuck slider pins, but I'm going to shuck blame on that one.
Anyway, what's done is done with regards to my rotor choice. I've already got the fashion aspect out of my system (not to say I regret the drilled rotors, the result was merely "meh" for me). When or if I have to do it over, I'm advised.
I also concur with the OE pad choice when it comes to pedal feel. And this is where I feel conflicted. I feel like bite should be a priority, but I also hate cleaning, and (I'll blame this on mid-life crisis) I've become fussy about how my car looks.
So I need better fitting pads, and it's down to this: Good initial bite, or dramatically less dust. I've used both OE and ceramics (Akebono) on other cars, so I'm aware of the tradeoff. I'm simply not sure if I should make that trade at this point. And of course that's a question only I can answer.
As far as Brembo pads vs Akebono, that's an easy one: Go with Akebono since I know what to expect.
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Hi Wilson,
It's the season to resume wrenching, take advantage, soon it will be too hot.
Who forgot to grease that caliper pin? Some guy at Sears or a muffler shop maybe?
Do you have stainless brake hoses?
My sense is that if you have them, everything in the brake caliper will get
badly corroded/frozen: pins, bleeder screws etc. Stick with OEM style
brake hoses. Soak the fittings with mystery oil a week before disassembly.
Be sure to break in the new brake pads.
I'm with Dave about replacing the caliper boots, They keep the crud away from the pins, and don't last forever.
I wouldn't opt to re-engineer the brakes, They're fine as they are if you use quality parts and stay away from junk from u-know-where.
Best Regards, Bill
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Good question as to who did the brakes last. I was certain I had a receipt from the dealer for that (and also that I have a fairly complete history on the car). The newest receipt I could find was for all four brakes in 01 when the car had 66k. The fronts have most certainly been replaced since then, as the rears were way more worn. But unless I mixed up the order of my paperwork, I don't know about the fronts. Which means, it may not have been Volvo.
Nope on the stainless (in fact, hoses seem to be OG). I have no reason to believe the calipers themselves are fine. I've not had them apart, but did flush the system last fall, and the old fluid looked good. On that note, the slider pin boots looked good as well (at least until I took a torch to the bracket).
The thought to fit 850 calipers/brackets was a knee jerk reaction to the problem (i.e: I hadn't given it the appropriate amount of thought). I believe that original 30 year old Volvo parts in working order are probably better than 90% of aftermarket stuff. It's fine to know there's that option, but I need to keep things simple.
As far as junk from u-know-where, I am pondering something. I've not been able to source a bracket alone, but of course there are plenty attached to new or reman caliper assemblies. While looking at Rock Auto for a bracket, I see they have an assembly on closeout for under $18 (plus shipping). My thinking is that having this on hand will allow either: A - a failsafe backup if I completely mess up my original bracket further trying to get the pin out. Or B - I can just swap it in, and take my time (and let penetrating oil time to do its thing) with the job. I find it difficult to believe that even a lousy bracket could be worse than what I have, but who knows? Further thought is leaning towards trying to find a used bracket for this purpose. No junkyards near me with older cars, and the used bits I've seen on eBay right now are complete left and right assemblies for more than I want to pay since I merely want the bracket. I might have luck putting a wanted post here and on some other Volvo boards.
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Hi Wilson,
Soak that pin with Mystery oil, that's worked the best for me over the years
with trying everything.
You might find something on Ebay if you search with the Volvo part number.
Plan B might be to take it to some muffler shop or garage with an Oxygen/Gas
torch and let them get the pin out for you?
Good luck, Bill
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Thanks, Bill, for the always sound advice. I have some Marvel on hand. I think I'll pull the bracket in a bit, and give it a soak. I know how much force (by feel) I used a couple of days ago, and it stands to reason that if I don't exceed that level, I shouldn't break anything.
Using the latest bracket P/N (8251154), I did come across a listing I hadn't seen before. An NOS part. So that, along with a new pin or two, is a guaranteed fix if all else fails.
I had a nice OA torch setup I was given, but it was huge, so I sold it when I moved homes, and downsized my garage as well as everything else. I know my little MAP torch sometimes gets the job done, but I'm obviously asking too much, although I think I'll warm the part before the MMO soak. Otherwise, there is a nice mom and pop shop in town that people say nice things about.
Unsure how true it is, but I did see one person in a Turbo Bricks thread mention that some Taurus model uses Girling, and Ford sells (or sold) a bushing that will work as a replacement. That would be great if it's true.
Ahh, the fun of using an ancient car for my sole vehicle. Having FCP nearby makes things a bit easier, as I typically get their shipments in one or two business days. But when I come across something like this bracket, which is basically NLA, I sometimes have second thoughts. It's still worth the occasional hassle to me, though. At least my wife's Volvo is relatively easy to get parts for.
-Wilson
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I've got two '95 940 wagons with the same Girling front calipers. Both have Bendix boosters. Turbos have a vacuum pump and use a smaller booster, which I've never found provides as firm braking as the larger booster used with the NA engine that operates off manifold vacuum.
If the caliper slide pins are seized, rusted, damaged or badly worn then they are available and can be easily replaced. With enough effort banging them around with heavy pliers and a hammer, perhaps using penetrating oil and heat, reportedly they can usually be extracted. It's generally a sign that the caliper slides were not kept well lubricated during their life (with high temp silicone brake grease) and/or the rubber dust boots either dislodged or failed and allowed grit, salt and moisture to penetrate. I periodically do my own caliper rebuilds, replacing the caliper pin boots, piston dust boot and piston seals and have yet to need to go for a commercially rebuilt caliper in all the years I've had 700s and 900s. I've got a bunch of caliper pin spares I've accumulated over the years and generally try to swap out the most worn ones.
The caliper guide bushings are also significant wear points, with no replacements available. The caliper frames on both my cars are lingering minor problems I've yet to deal with. The upper bushings generally wear significantly more than the lower bushings (or is it the other way?), which I believe can make them more prone to locking up as seized calipers. I've only had that happen once, a hard turn in reverse out of a parking spot, and managed to unlock them by rocking the car back and forth in gear with the wheels turned hard one way then the other. They let go with a small bang. One thing I have tried to extend the life of the caliper frames is to swap them left/right (which may required swapping the pad plates up/down) to try averaging out the upper and lower bushing wear.
I've always been tempted to find a suitable machine shop that I could trust to do a good job replacing the bushings in the frames. It's not exactly rocket science, but braking is a critical operation and perhaps not the best place to start experimenting.
I've always been tempted to buy new caliper frames with new bushings to help cut down on caliper slop and chronic brake vibration, but they weren't cheap and I'm not sure if they're still available, or whether these are rebuilds and may not always have new bushings. I was once told here that the most practical option was to check a bunch of used frames in a yard (Pick & Pull) and wiggle one of your own pins in them to figure which have the least amount of wear.
I was not aware that 850 calipers will mount and could be used on the 940 front struts. The 1992-on 900s with ABS are listed as using the later Girling/Lucas Jumbo Type II vented front rotors. I don't know if those have the exact same offsets and dimensions as the rotors used on the 850/S70/V70s of that vintage, but I rather suspect not. I'd be interested to know more.
--
Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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Thanks for that, Dave. Although your answer covers both bases, I should have mentioned my car is an N/A.
The boots looked good, but peeling back revealed rust on the one protecting the seized pin. My efforts to extract it included trying to twist with vice grips, whacking with a 16oz ball peen, heating bracket surrounding pin with MAP gas plumber's torch, then whacking. At this point I gave up, because I reasoned that even if I did get the pin out, both pieces would be damaged from rust to the point I'd need to replace them both anyhow.
Besides, I can still drive the car as-is--the pin must have seized a long time ago, probably prior to my ownership. If I break something and need to order parts, then the car can't be moved away from the front of the one car garage in our one car driveway. Not the end of the world, but something I prefer to avoid. There is noticeable drag on the affected rotor, but it's still able to spin by hand from the wheel studs. Interestingly, the brakes seem to operate fine. There is no pulling with brakes applied or not. This is probably the biggest reason I should just repair with correct parts, since even in a degraded state, everything seemed normal. Since I've never had a pin stuck beyond the point where I could twist and pull it out with pliers, I'm assuming these won't be serviceable once apart. Obviously pin isn't an issue--easy enough to source, as you mention.
The thing that got me thinking about the 850 calipers was seeing a kit for this swap from FCP some months ago: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/volvo-brake-upgrade-kit-centric-8111102kt
It seems the only 850 specific parts are the calipers, brackets, and pads. When then searching to find out more, I saw a few threads on turbobricks covering upgrading to 300mm, 320mm, and beyond. I stopped myself before going too far down that rabbit hole, but it's interesting nonetheless. Your notion about the dimensions of the newer designed car's rotors differing seems to be correct. In addition to the larger rotors, and calipers/brackets from the same application, one needs longer mounting bolts and bushings, to move the calipers outboard a bit (like 1/4" or so, if I recall). Then wheel fit can become an issue--the fun goes on.
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