I was driving home from Victoria yesterday and the car started to make a loud rapping noise and seemed to be missing on one cylinder. I limped it into a garage in Ladysmith and the mechanic there seemed to confirm my suspicion that either a rod was getting ready to fly off or that there is some kind of valve dislocation problem.

It had been 'ticking' at idle for quite a while now but always settled down and ran perfectly once up to speed. Been a remarkably good winter driver.

A clear clack clack clack clickety clack sound. Any other possibilities? I could bring it to the attention of the garage mechanics when they open a few days from now.

Hi.

I agree with Spook on this noise being a broken valve spring or let say one that has collapsed.
I have often wondered over the years just how long valves springs should last?
The odds are twice as high than the chances of it being a connecting rod.

I surmise that some of the extra sound is in part due to “not following the cam” and is probably a nice unnerving noise.
Probably a sound that’s very much like not enough oil inside a hydraulic lifter within other engines.
That too creates a miss if it becomes bad enough.
Most of the time the hydraulic lifters do not have as much “pump up distances” and just stay noisy.
A collapsing (fatigued) or collapsed (cracked) valve spring can get there rather easily and it will not go away.


Either way if it is shorter than it should be, I would want to go that route and jump into any lower end problems.

A weak valve spring can in itself that make the engine miss as you have heard or felt it doing.
A worn bearing insert shouldn’t make it miss.
A stethoscope or better yet compression test will help confirm the problem is up top.
Besides you need to know in which cylinder has it.

I would also like to ask, How many miles are on this head or could it NOT be an original factory setup head?

Springs are made from coil of steel wire and then heat treated in a batches.
Yes One and only one can have a failure so it could be a fluke but I will suggest running them all under a spring compression tester for “some” peace of mind of consistency and specification.
Those that are in there now, have been tested by time and cycles.
Since this can be an issue to anyone at any time, I shall hope, the experience gained will be shared on the forums.

Just because you can replaced them all with NEW introduces other probabilities of untested quality issues.
What a dilemma that might be? 😳 as always!

Factories keep things grouped during production runs for quality control and warranty reasons.
They know what they have made and issues incurred or they get mitigation as they should.

It would be nice to correlate some ideas of how well the red blocks have lasted as long as they have.
I just know, in my heart, that these engines received a great amount of assembly “care” let alone being designed well with time based forethought.
I have kept my cars because they have paid me my due and I’m paying it back to a machine made by true craftsmen of that era.

Phil

Hello Phil,

I had the head removed and the mechanic sent it to a machine shop. They are saying it is unfixable if I read their commentary correctly. Mechanic told me the cam journals are out of alignment and that the cam will drag and take out the journals and could result in breaking the camshaft.

Half of this is gobbleygook to me. Don't really understand what he is describing but I respect his integrity.

What do you think? Is the head a goner or is there still hope. I am willing to spend money on the job because I want to keep the car for many years to come.

Thanks for your fulsome reply, by the way.

Bob

Hi,

You might be asking the wrong person on here as I do all my own work and it’s not all that much automotive related even though I have a lots of personal vehicles.

About my past career as a journeyman machinist it was on an industrial scale.
I was raised with craftsmen and thinking that goes with it.
When you make things from scratch the part has to sell and the part talks to inspectors first and of course has to fit!
If you screw up something Lying that another “shift did it” can never be tolerated in the machining world.
During my career with one company we went from honor to having to use steel stamps and put our clock numbers around areas we finished.
A lot more paperwork because of ethics among the BS groups out there.
I hope your mechanic is not one of them.

From my world if that head needs to be machined flat again the journals may need to be recut. It’s not always the case or should not be in a properly maintained engine.
All out-of-line journals and caps have to be within a height tolerance to the face side.
There are specifications in our manuals for it and with lots of movement noted to save a head.
Valves have seat depths and cams have a height dimensions.
If you think about it all of the stuff up top is adjusted by shims and the whole cam is driven by a belt!
There are reasons for all of the adjustments being in there.
One is for mass production purposes or we couldn’t afford our cars.
Exotic cars are an example but we see them made for other budgets.
Not necessarily better but exclusive to an unrealistically small market group.
Their stuff filters down, if it’s worthy, otherwise, it’s not really needed anyway and is fools gold. 🤫

The automotive sector of machining is specialized to be akin to mass production and that is to be fast and simple.
The head probably could be bad but beyond their skill levels to repair it for a minimum set cost.
That last part truly runs wild in the automotive world of several domains over the years.

I need to ask what lead you to pull that head?
Once you let the hood be raised you need to get a definitive diagnosis.

Did you have the compression test done as I recommended?
What were any of those results indicating a malfunction?
A Coolant pressure test would tell if you had a bad head gasket.

You said in the original post 'ticking' at idle for quite a while now but always settled down and ran perfectly once up to speed.
Did something else go on later at a lower speed?
It’s my understanding that the engine was running fine except for a noise starting.
The engine head by itself is a piece of metal that doesn’t vibrate to make a noise. It hold things in place.
I don’t think even a cracked head causes noise unless you lose coolant or oil into combustion to make a spark knock. Even that can be managed some.
Fuel management does come into play here with speed. Just thinking out loud.

You have not said that you lost coolant or overheated the engine.
It takes some serious heat, several times to warp these engine heads and since it is bolted onto the block it won’t break a cam.
I’ll have to get more information on how that can work.

Now that he has undone the head was it less than .020 of an inch.
The maximum amount with the cam still installed.
I never take a cam out but it shouldn’t matter unless you really overheated it.

Most of the warp will be along or more across the axis. Or as the head twists at the corners. Not from end to end if it’s never been severely overheated.
A big hump in the in-line middle of .020 is a lot.
Did he show you what made him send it to the other shop?

You have to removed the valve components to spin the cam freely on oil in the those journals.

So, someone has to measure the cam bed or setup to them to machine the head flat. I do not know how that is achieved in head broachers since I never used one. Only seen pictures showing a cutter from underneath.

Normal is .006 to .010 warp and The cam can be held tighter due to the slight warping.
A used head has been repeatedly heated over many years.
It will normalize within these limits.
It’s one of several reasons for gaskets.
When a head is released from under the head bolts it will tighten up the cam because it’s still straight. You cannot expect less.
I’m curious who is BS ing who?
Have they offered a replacement head cost already? Maybe you need a second opinion but he’s got your hood up on his property. Ouch.

Since he got to get under the hood and you let him disassemble it you are set up to be paying his bills.
I don’t like what I’m saying either!

Since he sent the head in to the machine shop, he is putting the monkey on someone else’s back.
This way he can cover up if he was wrong and found the bad valve spring but see $$$ signs instead?
It appears that they, the other shop, maybe insinuating the engine head is warped beyond any recovery. Really?
You had better get with that shop to see if they even have it and get a lesson on head work and their noises.
Again, You might be asking the wrong man as I might be warped! 🤫

Did your mechanic remove cam caps first and look for oil starvation to the cam ?
Dry plain bearings cannot normally clack. It has no moving elements inside just an oil film.
A rotating cam cannot make a clacking noise as it’s solid, until broken, but that is not likely either.


I ask again, how did this happen when the engine never ran without any coolant loss before the noise started.
Since you are wanting to keep this car it doesn’t sound to me you would let it get overheated or knew that it had been.
How long have you owned the car, again?

Is this the same mechanic that was angling for a total rebuild because he thought it was a connecting rod?
I say this because if it was only one valve spring to change or a whole set it can be done on the engine from up top.
They put a little air upon the bad cylinder, to hold the valves up and slip things off the valves.
All the cylinders can be done. I recommended to test all springs for other weak ones.
I would expect either auto shop to do it to a head in order to guarantee the work.


Another side story involved my sister-in-laws 2006 Range Rover.
I’m afraid it’s going to sound similar to yours, so watch out.

She had a missing cylinder and the hood went up with a diagnosis of a bad head gasket on the right bank.
They removed the head and it was showing coolant leakage.
Then they said the left bank should be done to keep the engine in balance with ages of the gaskets.
Sounds logical since all the accessories and intake are already off.

After the machine work was done and assembly was started they noticed the same right side cylinder had a slipped liner in the block!
Down about .200 of an inch. They acted as liner were a surprise but he claimed that his new female mechanic saw it and he did not.
Further investigation said that the engine was made by Chevrolet for Range Rover.
Slipping liners a common problem with this special engine.
Now he wanted $3 to $5000 more to guarantee the repair it or a new engine that could be even more!
Upon my advise she paid him for work done and towed it home.
The vehicle was in pieces and put into the backend.

I think she was down about $2K to pay him off .
She ended up donating the vehicle to charity as I do not do that kind of work 600 miles from my car lift!

Besides it’s a RR that I had already had some moments with.
I did fixed her electric sliding sunroof by soldering up a relays internal board that is mounted up in the roofs headliner.
Guess… where I learned that trick, from 240s.
The RR dealer again wanted $800.

Before me she also got clipped for her ABS brakes needing new software for you guess it $800. It had to come from England to a representative here.

Range Rovers have lots of horror stories for something that appears so nice and rugged.
The nice gets ugly!
Complicated beyond belief electrically.
The alternators are used for RPMs to the tachometer by picking off a signal from a diode.
They already have a CPS for computer and ignition purposes. Just nuts.
Crazy prices for an alternator that no one wants to offer as a rebuilt at that time.
When her husband was alive he got took on a replacement two years before. $400+ from a parts house.
Luckily I located a rebuilder for this Marelli Italian unit @ $150 for her.
This rebuilder told me he tries to stay away from them for even more reasons.

Sorry, too long of a post but this is real life dealings and it helps to network.

Phil

I have a 1980 245 recently retired due to rust. The motor ran fine. I'm pretty sure the cylinder head could be used for your motor. If you live close enough (I'm on Long Island) you can come take the head for $50 - or - take the whole motor for the same $50. Call me at (six--three-one) 968-8933. - Dave

Hi Dave,

Will a 1980 B23 head fit a 900 series B230 engine block?

That is assuming you have the original engine from the 1980.

Phil

OOOPS!! - I wasn't thinking about the rear mounted distributor on 740/940 motors. Sorry for the misdirection. But if anyone needs a 240 motor the deal is the same. - Dave

Dear muskox37,

Hope you're well and stay so! It sounds like a broken valve spring. The post-1992 B230 engines have oil squirters, to ensure generous lubrication.

Unless the oil has become sludge-like due to neglect - out-of-character for you - it is highly unlikely that a rod bearing has seized or had "spun".

Even so, I'd check the oil level. An overlooked road hazard could have punctured the oil pan. If so, oil starvation could have caused a bearing failure.

Far less likely, an oil pump failure. I've never seen such a failure report in some 20 years of reading BB posts.

Please post-back with your findings.

Yours faithfully,

Spook

Hello again, Spook,

The mechanic removed the head and sent it to a machine shop that decared it pretty well unfixable. It is warped and the cam journals are out of alignment. He said this will cause the camshaft to drag and will take out the journals and could lead to the camshaft breaking.

Not quite sure where to turn at the moment. I do want to retain the car and preferably to get the head repaired if at all possible. I am checking other machine shops and suppliers at the moment.

muskox37