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84 245, 390k-ish, B23F w/AW70 trans. I've gone through 3 starter motors in 4 months, Because of the COVID that isn't but a thousand miles or so. The first 2 were from the O'Reilly's, the second one was a pick & pull part that I took to a rebuild service that I know to be reliable, before installing. On advice from a fellow mechanic I checked the ground cable (it got pretty hot when I was trying to get it to start with the second starter) and while it wasn't in great condition I cut off the end and installed a new lug that gripped the whole wire. Is there something that an old, super-annuated, car could have that would cause starter motor failure?
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(long primal scream) Foot stomping multiple expletives and curses. Tool throwing, juggling cats and painting pelicans in tie-dye colors.
When I went to hook up the remote starter switch I found the battery positive cable was loose. Tighten it up and all is good.
I feel not unlike a fool.
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A positive outcome, I'm sure you'll agree. React with a smile and be thankful.
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fool?
not
Not having a place to propose your thinking about what could be the problem...that remains to the foolish.
We at the Brickboard, are Holmses in wait....without a problem we turn to..... Sherlock...what have you done!
Holmes....HOLMES...mygod
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Look bgm1958, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.
(from HAL9000: 2001 A Space Odyssey - Stanley Kubrick)
Stay well, stay safe everyone!
Amarin
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Hi there!
Oh my-my, wasn’t that one heck of a notion!
I’m glad you went looking for the hidden wire to use!
One never knows how close you are to something, when your still, just far enough away!
I should add a phrase for you to remember, since when you get older, it gets worse!
“What a revoltin' development this is!"
A loose positive or negative does lead to be revolting! (:-)
I stole that from the show “Life of Riley” with William Bendix!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Life_of_Riley
I can remember his last name, Bendix, because Bendix is the company that invented disc brakes for aviation and the automotive industry.
They also had the first fuel injection system idea from jet turbines but for automobiles that idea took up the whole back seat of a car!
They sold that idea and prototype work done to the Robert Bosch family in the Fifties.
It’s amazing where’re mergers and acquisitions can lead too!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendix_Corporation
Again, what’s so close is just that far away!
If you ever get the chance to visit Dayton, Ohio? Check out the Delco-Remy museum!
It’s just as “shocking” what was so close in our own backyards or garages!
Don’t we just love to tinker!
Phil
Edit, Sorry, Just another saga of American’s inventive prowess being exploited!
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Figured it out yet?
" Is there something that an old, super-annuated, car could have that would cause starter motor failure? "
I don't know of anything, from experience, that would damage a good starter, and since you say the cranking is easy when it does work, I can't imagine any.
Would it be possible for you to get the car to your alt/starter rebuilder? There you'd find the skills needed to check the voltage at the terminals while cranking is attempted. Finding the location of the voltage drop is how I would troubleshoot this issue, rather than changing parts.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
"At my funeral take the bouquet off my coffin and throw it into the crowd to see who is next."
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You have changed the ground cable which is good but have you checked the main positive cable. They can suffer from corrosion under the insulation, especially at the battery end. I've seen one that looked fine bit after stripping off a couple of inches of insulation the cable just broke in half. Next time you're in the pick n pull pick up a couple of the after checking they are least look OK. May not be your problem but worth a look. Pulling the cables around may temporarily make them a bit better. Your light dimming may be due to the high resistance of a corroded cable.
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How about using a remote starter switch like the one that I got with my Sears tune up equipment?
You could hook it up and turn the ignition on - see if the car cranks differently than when you use the regular starter switch.
This would allow you to by-pass any other equipment in the starting circuit.
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Hi,
He has a 1984
No starter jumper switch needed.
He just needs to find the female spade connector, that is hanging out by the oil dip stick, from the wiring harness.
First make sure the transmission is in neutral or park!
Run a wire from it over to the battery positive post and this will engage the starter solenoid.
He just needs to touch one end of the wire to the battery post and use it to turn it back off.
I might add if you do it often enough, in succession, it might start working?
This will bypass the ignition switch circuitry and this alone will confirm that the solenoid is working with a click he is hearing only!
What maybe happening is that, the solenoid is not stroking far enough inside to completely close the circuit to run the motor each and every time.
It is a boogie-boo with Bosch starters.
The manufacturing tolerances and assembly tolerances are held too closely. Over time the contact plates wear and don't quite fit up inside.
I have disassemble the solenoid mechanisms and made the push rod longer out the back side of the iron core. The core bottoms out in the housing but the "through rod" hits another "pin deeper" to push the spring loaded contacts.
I cut the tack weld and push the rod into the iron core, as its a press fit. I tack it back.
It's about 1/16" inch too short. This gives the washer contacts just enough push.
Symptom is It clicks, but no motor turning happens.
You can set the up the solenoid in a vise and test the movement with an ohmmeter.
The meter goes across the terminals. The core needs to make up the contacts with about an extra .050 of spring loaded stroke of the solenoid after continuity is made.
This way it applies enough pressure to the contacts inside the assembly that really isn't made to be serviced. I have modified several solenoids, so I know it's a common ailment!
The other solution it replace for ($60+) it with another "cleaned up" or "new one" with the same problem later on! Later on, could be soon or hundreds of thousands of miles! These Bosch starters are very reliable!
This might be happening on all rebuilds, if the rebuilders go that route. That's a big "IF."
I should have mentioned this sooner, but then, what would I have done tonight?
(:-)
Phil
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Hi, Phil.
I don't understand your first line, "He has a 1984." This makes it seem as if some other model years do not have this feature but it was present on all 240s.
--
'79 242, '84 DL 2 door, '80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon, '15 XC70 T6 AWD
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"This makes it seem as if some other model years do not have this feature but it was present on all 240s. "
A few years ago I'd have chimed in and agreed.
'93s don't have it.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
I'm so busy I don't know whether I found a rope or lost my horse.
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I figured something like this would happen. It has probably been mentioned before on this very forum.
My supposition was based on the Volvo factory wiring diagram for the 240. You know...the ones in the green books, Bentley and Haynes that everyone hates. The 1992 and 1993 model years are combined into one diagram in Bentley. And, of course, it shows the socket which is always called out as item 113. Thanks, Volvo.
Then there are the non-Volvo diagrams that I downloaded years ago. You must know the ones I mean. They seem to have been scanned from another service manual and converted to pdf. The stand-alone 1993 diagram shows the service socket except the wire color is identified as pink.
Not having owned a '93 model I assumed the diagrams were correct.
--
'79 242, '84 DL 2 door, '80 DL 2 door, '89 DL Wagon, '15 XC70 T6 AWD
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I'm with you. Could be I've even suggested the test socket to '93 owners based on my mistaken confidence in the documentation.
What I've learned through some brief exposure to my daughter's daily driver '93 could fill a web page dedicated to '93 uniqueness. This collection would likely never end, and I'm sure I wouldn't be covering everything beginning with the round-tooth cam timing arrangement.
I understand Volvo didn't plan to build 240s for the '93 model year. Popular demand and perhaps a bit of excess inventory of pieces-parts gave us this half-year pleasure ending on May 5. I imagine the 240 build line was close to chaos by then.
There are two (and I've heard unconfirmed rumors of three) electrical harness designs used in the '93. Notice, the gray 8-place connector we use to identify the location of that test socket isn't present either. Two versions of the trusted green book manuals exist for '93, one identified as "late production."
Someone could start a thread on this forum just for the collection of what makes the 1993 a unique 240. I'd contribute what little I've learned, but the '93 is very popular with us as old 240 owners, I'd quickly learn more than I could teach. Everything from the peculiar AC hose thread pitch to the reinforced glove box.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
"4 out of 3 people struggle with math."
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Hi there!
There nothing wrong with being surprised like everyone else is!
Manufacturers reserve the right to make changes due to outside forces beyond their control just because, that’s how life works daily!
The things that do get planned for are obsolescence or to just making things less expensive for profit, it seems.
The one wire removed saved money and made the remote starter business IN to make some money. Tools for this or that specific task!
I saw a YouTube on the Volvo 3.2 Six and it was shocking.
No wonder Volvo is quitting IC engines!
DIY’s might be a dying breed, but I bet, electric vehicles will bring just as many things as above!
They cannot even make the power input method a simple standard everywhere!
Our global economy thrives on change, since we don’t ever stand still and neither does the cosmos, but planet Earth, is ridiculously alone on this most of the time!
I see that Kitty is working in the Technical Writing Profession.
I bet he is aware of all kinds of changes and how hard it is to keep up!
I have about 45 years of Popular Science magazines stashed away.
I unsubscribed in 2013 due to the lack of journalism content with each article.
The magazine went to page and a half a single photo and no reading columns continued!
The columns, Now have the line “ Read more on-line @.com. It was +$5.99 more!
Actually the photos are better due to the computer screens resolution.
I subscribed to the Brickboard as a Sunday driver on his updated site!
I wonder if Kitty uses speech recognition software?
I still prefer fingers and it’s tempting, but I don’t say words completely right either!
A mess of an Old man and a Young man, I used to be!
I have cleaned up a little though!
(:-)
Phil
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Hi Art!
Yes, I found it missing on my 1993!
It's probably why I stated my recommendation the way I did.
I haven't checked my 1992 automatic that I got from David Samuels or the "Wagonmiester."
I haven't had to work on his refurbished car except for normal maintenance requirements.
It also has had to sit for the last nine months, with the 1993, in the garage of my other home!
That going to change next month because, I have other appointments on the maintenance of myself to get done!
Shifting residences for better weather isn't as much fun, when it involves Covid scares, on top of normal routine check ups!
As I said earlier, I hope our Bricksters are hanging in there like our 240s!
(:)
Phil
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Hi,
Let me get this straight that the first two starters were the O’Reilly brand.
It’s been my experience with them that they are China starters when it comes to VW bug starters.
My sister-in-law tried one from them because they were local and it failed under the lifetime warranty within a year!
O’Reilly refunded the money because I was doing the replacement this second time too!
She got the next one from JBugs.com that was a little more expensive (about twice of her refund) but it was a Bosch starter.
It works better as it turned over quite a bit faster in comparison!
I remember the China starter was lighter by a good pound or so, so there was a difference inside.
I suspect the iron inside or the windings were not in there!
It’s a common feeling on the Board is that rebuilds are shaky because of the variations in quality control, let alone a remanufactured one from the knock-off countries!
The idea of using a Picknpull one is good provided it’s OEM from Bosch. You did not mention this little tidbit?
In my experience with these the most you have to do to them is to blow them out and inspect the brushes. In most cases they do not fail unless the engine was kept in bad tune and the starter was over used!
You should have put it straight into your car because the Picknpull has a 30 day warranty.
Now this leads me to ask you, “Do you limit the amount of time you crank the engine?”
A 20 second crank time is a very very, long-long time to crank an engine!
The starter has a limited duty cycle for it to not overheat itself, let alone any cables.
These motors apply brute force with lots of amperage! 200 on average with some larger engines. I have a clip-over meter that goes to 300. You could be talking up to a three horsepower motor in wattage.
The cables are usually big enough and short enough not to get excessive hot during short cranks!
It is important to have good connections, on the starter, because it shares its terminal with the alternator current feed back to the battery!
You will notice there should be two ground cables. One to the engine block and one to the cars body!
Both grounds should be kept in good working order, as these constituent, one-half of the whole electrical system!
As far as what(?) could assist you in “cooking” starters would be if the engine is too hard to turn over by hand, with a wrench on the crankshaft pulley bolt. You should be able to rotate the engine even through its compression strokes with a ratchet and socket.
I’ll bring this up again ...
How is the car running and tuneup wise, what’s its condition?
Phil
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It was an OE Bosch starter from the pick & pull, donor only had 180k on the clock. Engine is running fine and turned over easily and started right up each time. Never more than a few seconds. Block ground connection is good but haven't checked the body ground. Been using this rebuilder for years, the bus company I once worked for used them and the Ford dealer that my brother works for uses them. I am more than reasonably certain that the rebuild is good. Other poster suggested looking at the transmission switch and the starter switch. Not sure about that though as when I try to start the car the warning lights dim and it sounds like it's engaging, it just won't turn.
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Art, on his CleanFlameTrap site, has a pictoral documentation of a Starter Autopsy--pointing out what was not refurbished in a Rebuilt.
https://cleanflametrap.com
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Where is it?
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Never laugh at your wife's choices. You are one of them.
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Art, did I mis remember? am I confusing starter with In-tank fuel pump main fuel pump...brain fart. Didn't you do one on starters/solenoids?
Do you have an updated page with links to your encyclopedia of 240 images.
Cleanflametrap website gives links that only scratches the surface.
Your library is vast, but there dosen't seem to be a 'card catalog'.
formerly someone Claiming to be CB
Charlie near Westminster.
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You are 100% right Charlie.
I joke "where is it" because I know what you remember is there, but I haven't indexed it in any way that someone could find it, including for the most part, me.
The pic was of an armature that had thrown a loose commutator section from a recent Bosch rebuild. I think this is what you saw:
Someday...
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
PUBS. The official sunblock of Ireland.
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Hi,
Did the original starter and the 3 subsequent replacements all behave the same way?
The dimming of the lights and heating up of the cable makes me think the motor is getting power, and that makes me wonder if there is a problem with the engagement.
If it was mine I think I'd pull the starter and inspect the ring gear. With the starter out and a good light, I'd turn the engine slowly for a full revolution looking to see if it's warped ,loose or broken.
You can bench test the starter and solenoid with a battery, jumper cables, and a small wire with a female spade terminal. Battery + goes to the big lug on the solenoid, battery - to the frame, and the spade to the solenoid connection that is used on the car. Touching the other end of the small wire to the battery + should activate the solenoid which sends power to the starter motor.
While you're at it, have a look at the copper wire that connects the solenoid to the starter motor. It's insulated where it leaves the solenoid and where it enters the motor, but is exposed otherwise. Does it look like it was overheated ?
I'm pretty sure that a starter motor, or any electric motor, that's powered up and can't turn will burn up and damage the armature and brushes in short order.
My experiences with local independent auto electric places has been 100% positive and I'd be very surprised if your guy would hand you something that he hadn't fully tested.
Your original 84 starter is very robust and I think better that the later glued on magnet type. I replaced the solenoid on my 84 a couple of years ago, and after 300k the motor itself was almost indistinguishable from a new one, with almost no wear on the brushes or commutator.
good luck, Peter
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"I try to start the car the warning lights dim and it sounds like it's engaging, it just won't turn."
This just like my starter troubles last time. Starter not operational when ignition key is turned to KP III. Dashboard lights dim during attempted start.
So I replaced the battery. For a few weeks all was well.
Then it happened again. No start BUT lights didn't dim this time. When I shorted the starter's solenoid terminal to its own positive terminal it did turn very well. Car did start using key after that. So I suspected the ignition switch. Replaced it and all was well for almost a year.
Only recently past few months no start again. This time I know the starter must be replaced. Its about 10 years old, car used almost daily to commute to work.
Replaced starter new OE Bosch. No issues after that.
Amarin.
Edit: Transmission switch still ok. Even engaged to N still not starting during those times.
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Hi Amarin,
From your description, my first thought is that you had an intermittent solenoid contact problem.
In the end were you able to determine if the fault was in the solenoid or the motor ? To my mind these are two distinct components of the starter system. I know many people lump these together, probably because the solution to failure in one is the same as the other. Replace them as a unit because it's cheaper that way.
I'd just like any DIYers to know that if your idea of a good time is to spend 3 or 4 hours pulling a starter, replacing the readily available solenoid, and putting it back in, it can be done for around $20.00. Unless a magnet has become unglued from the later models, the motor is seldom the problem from my experience.
As to your edit, I could be wrong or be misreading it, but I seem to recall that both park and neutral rely on contact with the NSS to get power to the solenoid.
regards, Peter
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Hi Maplebones,
"From your description, my first thought is that you had an intermittent solenoid contact problem."
--> Yes. You're correct. Being halfway around the world (Malaysia) we don't have chilling cold weather. Only tropical climate. So I gathered my solenoid was not really "sticking" (ie weather related) but refused to operate due to poor voltage supplied by the battery (as also shown by dimming lights). I did solve the problem (for a while) by replacing the battery.
"In the end were you able to determine if the fault was in the solenoid or the motor ? To my mind these are two distinct components of the starter system. I know many people lump these together, probably because the solution to failure in one is the same as the other. Replace them as a unit because it's cheaper that way."
--> Yes. Good question. I did autopsy on the old starter. What I found surprised me. Loose terminals! Both terminals for solenoid AND positive post had gotten loose in their black plastic/bakelite holders due to repeated heat cycles (being next to engine), engine vibrations and old age. No, not really loose like a bad tooth but loose enough to spin slightly. So this must have compromised current flow to both solenoid and starter motor. Agree with you that replacing the entire solenoid should have cured the issue.
"I'd just like any DIYers to know that if your idea of a good time is to spend 3 or 4 hours pulling a starter, replacing the readily available solenoid, and putting it back in, it can be done for around $20.00. Unless a magnet has become unglued from the later models, the motor is seldom the problem from my experience."
--> This must be answered within the context/situation of the car owner. The car being driven almost daily must be repaired quickly to be able to get back to work. I had the weekend to do this. And the wife's car is for the kids, school and groceries. So a "quality time" in my situation was to replace the entire starter with new (no option for rebuilds). Its considered a mission critical item (as Spook would say).
The replacement was done in about 5 hours by myself - dismantling for 2 hours (including removing engine mount to lower the engine to get to starter bolts, broken tools, went to hardware store to get more tools), lunch break 2 hours and 1 hour left to install new starter. The installing part was relatively quick.
"As to your edit, I could be wrong or be misreading it, but I seem to recall that both park and neutral rely on contact with the NSS to get power to the solenoid. "
--> I meant to say the seldom used neutral (N) position should give the best electrical contact in geting power to the solenoid. Yet it did not respond.
Hopefully that helps,
Amarin.
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Hi Amarin!
I see things are going smoothly with you, over there, half way around the world?
America's continues its mess and is still in flux!
We both have made fewer posts as the "whole Board" has slowed down with posts.
Hopefully, it has been weather related and not Covid-19, plus variants related and our Brickboard members escaped the 500,000!
Somewhere in all this thread's posts, there must be an answer?
The dimming lights keeps jumping up by other posters as well!
He said he was going to check the body ground cable too!
It does take some current to pull in the solenoid but the lights dimming is a clue but I don't know how to apply it.
Once the solenoid clicks he doesn't get it to turn and that is inside the starter.
Maybe he has a bad battery cell could be a thought in this adventure!
I'm hiding out and a waiting more response from the owner!
Phil
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Hi Phil!
Yes slowly trying to manage things here in Malaysia! The government is quite strict in handling this Covid situation. Lockdowns has some kind of mind-numbing effect on everyone here, myself included! Even in lockdowns, still have to go to hospital to work as Covid frontliners. I'm a pathologist who dissects dead bodies as required by the law. In this Covid situation, part of my duty is to ensure proper handling/burial/cremation of Covid positive bodies. So less posts on the forum for a while.
Yeah, I had read about what happened on Capitol Hill first week in January. Very tragic indeed! This a short while after celebrating new year?? And the impeachment issues...America needs to strengthen its public health sector. And I've been twice to America last time (Bloomington & Tallahasee) to see that the private health sector (ie making money) is the prevailing setup in the country.
So stick to your guns (social distancing/mask/hand sanitizer). I'll just chip in this forum whenever I can.
Take good care of yourself,
Amarin.
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Hi Phil,
My third post of another snow day. I've been cutting wood but I can't get around any more because my poor little JD 420 crawler gets beached with snow under the belly pan leaving the tracks dangling. I spend more time winching myself out than doing useful work, so I've given up.
Normally we get a few thaws which makes crusts and allows getting over it, but there have been none this year so I've found myself floundering around in snow over my waist. It's a killer and I'm not expecting a very easy time sugaring.
Postings are few and far between, maybe the covid has something to do with it, but I wonder if the stock of RWD Volvo's is just petering out. Five years ago I couldn't make the 20 mile return trip to town without getting a honk or flash from two or three 240's, but in the last couple of years I haven't had a single one. Craigslist adds are few, and most of them are parts cars. Ebay has a few high dollar cars but I don't see many daily drivers.
It would be interesting to know how many 240's,740's etc. are, or have been registered nationally on a yearly basis. I guess searching DMV records could provide that. Volvo used to advertise 9 out of 10 were still on the road after so many years so I guess it's possible.
regards, Peter
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Hi Peter!
Thanks for the reply to the threads! It is getting lonely on here and your point about the numbers of 240's dropping away are finally catching up to the supply we had!
Sorry to hear about waist high snow! If that stuff shows up around me, thicker than my shoes soles, I start thinking " Whatta am I doing here?" Wife says, we are going south!
This year, with Covid about, we did stayed north as this county has a far less population.
Lots of rain and occasional sleet is all I get on the coast. The high country is something I learned to stay away from in the winter!
I have a JD 172 LAWN tractor and it only get high sided on gopher mounds on my acre of field grass! (:-)
I thought I put in my last post, that he might have a bad cell in his battery!
I did an edit but I think it sent me an email to me, just after I posted what I had.
So I guess it doesn't delay very long and any edit, before any shorter time out is why it may get missed!
Before the Board did so much emailing I had an hour or two I thought?
Oh well maybe he will see our chat and exchange out the same battery, as that might be a common thread here. This would explain the dimming with only the solenoid pulling in!
Have some nice big snow cones, with lots of different flavors, it will help to get rid of that snow!
(:-)
Phil
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In your troubleshooting include also the battery, ignition switch and park-safety-switch (its automatic car yes?). When starter fails it doesn't always mean the starter is at fault.
Amarin.
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