posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sat Sep 7 10:48 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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Just happened to see this.
What happened to the IPD brain trust.
What to use in an M46 and an M47 has been discussed here for pages and pages --- years ago. Guess the IPD staff dosen't read the BrickBoard.
What happened to the IPD brain trust.
"From the factory, automatic transmission fluid is the specified fluid for both the M46 and M47 transmissions found in the 200/700/900 models. Over the years as synchronizer rings wear and tolerances increase, we have found that changing the transmission fluid to synthetic 10W30 motor oil makes a noticeable increase in smoothness and gear engagement. We have even noticed ‘weak’ overdrive engagement has become firmer with the new fluid. Using your clutch when shifting into overdrive can also help to reduce wear on the overdrive. Although this change in fluid does make for improvement in transmission operation it does not repair damage. As always be sure to use the proper amount of fluid to achieve the correct fill level."
Created on 2011-07-29 by IPD Staff
https://www.ipdusa.com/techtips/10091/m46-m47-transmission-oil
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The 1988 factory service manual says type F or G. It also says:
Engine oil instead of ATF. Engine oil SAE 10W/40 is recommended for use in areas where the temperature seldom drops below 14°F (-10°C).
From personal experience, synthetic engine oil works great in new or well used M46 transmissions.
--
john
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For what it's worth (and I'm sure you all know this), my 940 Volvo handbook (UK spec)states that for the M47 transmission: "Volvo synthetic transmission oil or ATF type F or G".
Why use anything else would be my conclusion?
Owen F
Fife
Scotland
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Hi,
I think I have reached the same conclusion on the type of oils to use as well!
In two of them the oils did not cause problems.
It was just the 1993 having that unknown oil in it, that throws me a curve and it not having the Volvo name casted on outer right side of the gear box.
Putting in different or thicker oil was to cover up a problem, created the problem or was a total flub up on the shop when the clutch was done?
It didn’t seem to take long to start sounding off that I had a problem.
On two of the three M47s transmissions the ATF was found in them, when I got them. The 1991, has the most miles, has been maintained by me since the 182K mark and now has roughly 275 k on it.
It seems to be perking along just find.
The Junk Yard special looks to have been abused as the oil was a little darker than I have ever seen on any of my M46’s. Unknown mileage is also the same for the engine I got with it but can only estimate that both were over 132 K as the speedometer looked out of order with parts gone.
The wagon looked to be a parking ticket capture from the San Francisco area. The headliner was tattooed up with a black sharpie!
Since I think about it, it was a wagon too, so it may have had some good loads in it beforehand.
Between the two with noises, I have looked into the top of both and all looks normal with the gears teeth and no metal in the oil, yet!
They both shift find but are just getting noisier with whines in two or three gears selections of one or the other.
It’s along the lines that the bearings are have issues on the main input shaft and how it centers in the rear one.
The counter shaft below is not loving its relationship within there either!
I’m suspecting that maybe a lesser “grade” of quality bearing got put in that may have fewer rolling elements in them. Maybe the engineers are not using the correct angular radial thrust rollers within the front bearings. With ongoing production changes never got finalized..
The very early ones had issues with the fifth gear setup arrangement and the length of the aluminum case could presents its own bugs!
The vendor for Volvo may have had a “skilled labor” turnover and their not being setup correctly during the years of production?
If and when I crack the babies open, I will have to put my thinking cap on!
Early on, I worked making very large gearboxes and did my best to lean over the shoulders of our assembly crew when they set some big gears together.
They used layout dye and valve lapping grinding compounds to lap the teeth for a “strike pattern” along the length of helical gears by adjusting the tapered cone bearings on each side of the shafts.
When these gear boxes when empty, I could sit inside to bore the holes for the bearings.
I once joked that I had my own VW bug with a sun roof! It was a inspection plate in the top I crawled through.
A rainy winter project, if I could stay in the house, with my machine shop and car lift!
My lady and I not the young “rain dancing” birds we used to be!
Phil
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Hi, CB
You are losing me on this post.
But I'm learning about cans of worms.
I thought the M45 was a three or four speed manual only. It may only require conventional oils and that may confuse some Volvo Indies!
I have never seen a M45 underneath a car but drove one once to know the engine revs more if the overdrive is not there.
The M46 is the same four speed manual but was offered with an over drive option through the years. I had a Salesman tout that it decreased engine wear by 20% when I bought the GT in the late seventies.
The additional overdrive unit requires the Type F automatic fluid as it has the electric/hydraulically powered Clutch cone pack and planetary gear hub.
I have three of these kinds and shifting with the clutch was recommended going in or out of overdrive.
It states in the manual, to only shift up at speeds above 45 mph too!
Don't back up with it still engaged either.
The early ones did not come with the drop out/disengagement relay when it worked in fourth gear. Leaving fourth on those, did not shift the hydraulic unit out.
My 1984 and up have the relay.
In my mind, the M47 is strictly a five speed pattern manual with the fifth gear being the overdrive ratio.
There has been lots of posts or controversy about what oil should go into the M47.
I'm going through some tribulations over oils, that have been used in my three M47's, that are now in my possession.
One is in my 1991 that has 280K+ miles on it. I picked the car up used with 182k on it 15 years ago.
I have only seen type F oil in it, when I got it and I have maintained it that way.
I gave gone to adding 20% Lucas transmission additive, to it, in the last ten years for fear of things I have read about the oil not getting all the way up to the bearings. Manual transmissions do not pump their oil around. They rely on what I call, "tackiness" to get oil up and flung around.
I think Ford called it a "Friction modifier."
To me that means it must drain off slower.
That term "modified" couldn't possibly mean Adding friction, does it? So I "stuck" with a little thicker mix might help.
Type F has a good history of holding up well, especially, when you compare it to Dexron products.
They have been making so many updates over the years that it scares me if it will ever be a great product. I have an automatic in a 1992 and that is another can of worms to know what version is good or awaiting another revision!
So far the transmission is the 1991 car works just fine. I like only one worm in my cans!
So I'm one of those guys, that if its working, maybe I should leave well enough alone!
Now since all that story, I have acquire two more M47's.
I pulled one with untested unit from a junkyard along with its engine attached. I got it with all its goodies attached for $350, eight years earlier.
Both have set until needed.
I have a questionable habit, now, of stocking up things. (:)
Two years ago now, I purchased a clean and straight 1993 sedan with 200k for $2,500.
The woman I bought the car from said her boyfriend had pass away a couple years ago and was selling the car to get a newer car. I'm thinking she decided to spend some insurance money as she was keeping his, half as old pickup, because she still liked it.
She said she had the clutch change out not too long ago by someone she knew to be a Volvo independent in her Reno area.
It seemed to work fine for me then and later I found it to be a true Volvo clutch pack.
No lie there, but the oil change she may have not know about?
I have another question to bring up later about the transmissions housing!
Anyhow, I drove it home about 600 miles. The transmission shifted just a little bit tight but nothing else noticeable. I got it on the rack as soon as I could, to inspect the car, as it needed front struts badly. It had brand new Michelins on it from Costco so she knew nothing about struts.
During my investigation I found out that there was not "Type F" in the transmission.
It had something like motor in it and it did not smell like any kind of gear oil. This was not good.
Then I got to thinking the newer Volvo oil might help it shift smoother.
Anyhow, I decided I would try Volvos type oil and drove the transmission about 5,000 more miles with it.
It then shifted smoother but I got more in tune with the transmission noise!
I later decided I was not hearing engine valve train clatter but a transmission bearing noise.
No type of oil was going to fix what I was hearing coming at me!
Second got louder and then third gear.
Seems to be a main shaft center bearing and/ or a radial thrust front bearing losing smoothness.
I decided to yank it and put in my spare 1990 JY transmission in.
The original 1993's trans is now setting around to get busted open someday for a complete tear down.
This is where, the term you used was, "a can of worms" gets to really wiggling!
The JY had the red "F" in there but it wasn't the freshest I have ever seen.
I needed the transmission so it's going in to get its big test!
I flushed out the old with kerosene and a rinsed with regular solvent behind that.
I blew 80 gallons of air in to evaporate that.
I decided put in new oil but the same as I got for the 1993. I have it and got to use it up!
It's Fuch's trans fluid, that is the equivalent to Volvos recommended transmission oil.
It meets the same specifications and is about half to two thirds the dealers lowest price I could find. The same oil is rolling around across many German brand dealerships for up to $50 a liter.
During World War II there was a black market for women's hosiery, now it's all about hosing their German car customers!
There seems to be a lot of different bottling schemes going on, when the fluid actually comes from one or two proprietary manufacturers in Europe.
It's almost a high temperature industrial earth moving equipment lubricant or a "thermal fluid" but down graded slightly for passenger vehicles.
You don't want to know the industrial price is, but then, their gear boxes cost hundreds of thousands of any kind of currency!
So, now I have driven my JY special a few thousand miles, it sounds like I will be tearing into two M47's, for almost the same identical malfunctions of bearings!
The new oil has proven, to me, it will not repair what's gone wrong with these two transmissions, that were mishandled during their years!
It either that or Volvo cheapen up with their vendors, along the way.
Between the three transmissions the 1993's case dose not have Volvo casted into the side of it! The cheapness has leaked out on to the external portion to be seen in its last year!
There may have been issues with the quality of bearings or with the expansion of the aluminum cases and with lack of proper shimming going on!
Someone got the M46's figured out!
Are the 940's built with blank cases?
That might explain where it came from and her and I got hosed with it.
Could the Indies have switched out her transmission for another transmission made for another make car that used the same maker of this transmission but had a blank casing?
Women sure get clobbered in these shops!
Has anyone notice more transmission cases without Volvo casted on the outside?
Maybe there are other cars in the world, using a M47, that's called something else?
Some have said this transmission is a little weak for more horsepower.
Maybe it was built for a lighter/smaller car that's used on islands that don't get tons of miles on them!
My JY transmission has unknown mileage on it and the oil was dark. I want to say lack of maintenance so far!
So, who knows goob-ly-gob about what can happen these days?
I'm sure curious why I'm losing on two out of my three "used" picks!
M46's are not looking so bad now!
Darn ole' worms anyhow!
(:)
Phil
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Hi,
Just thought I would restate the issue about the transmission cases having different casting marks.
I had a change to get under my 1991 yesterday and discovered I remembered them wrong.
It was the JY transmission that still has the Volvo name on the side. It came out of a 1990 wagon.
My 1991 and 1993 do not have the Volvo name casted on the right side.
So after 1990 Volvo changed up something? Maybe it was an issue or issues with the M 47 that they didn’t want their name on any longer.
I wonder who was making the transmission for them?
LayCock of England origin made the rear half of the M46’s overdrive.
LayCock was really popular among many small British models.
Volvo’s reputation has always been a little vain in their advertising lately? Maybe, because they are so close to Germany’s influences? I feel the five cylinder engine was a hand-me-down design that they got done playing with.
They did the same thing for Harley-Davidson’s newest “V” Rod engine years back!
Phil
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sun Sep 8 22:10 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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Phil
the 'can of worms' is the misinformation about What Fluid to Use on the IPD website. You know the Volvo guys from way back, Portland Oregon. "IPD is the Volvo Parts, Accessories and Performance Specialists Since 1963."
"What happened to the IPD Brain Trust"
1) On their Web site they give confusing information about what fluid to use on their Tech Page (not mentioning the products that they sell)....They say USE Synth 10W30 Motor Oil????? as a stop-gap solution to balky trannies. HUH?
Their product that they sell, Fluid Page, they show Volvo Manual Trans Fluid, and Redline MTL....
Noting that Volvo Manual Trans Oil lists only FWD and AWD Volvos --- in the 'vehicle fitment' pull down.
(read my second post)
Otherwise...for this foolishly begun thread ---- as Roseanne RoseannaDana(RIP)
used to say ---"never mind"
https://angelsinnature.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/never-mind-gilda-radner-rosanne-rosannadanna.jpg
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posted by
someone claiming to be CB
on
Sat Sep 7 15:57 CST 2019 [ RELATED]
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However IPD sells Volvo and Redline MTL
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/6765/115319-manual-transmission-oil-genuine-volvo-31280771
IPD sez it's just for
VOLVO C30
VOLVO C70
VOLVO S40
VOLVO S60
VOLVO V50
VOLVO V70
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/6980/106979-volvo-redline-mtl-manual-transmission-oil-50204
IPD lists all models all the way ack to the PV(444 544)
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/8602/109496-redline-mt-90-manual-transmission-oil-50304
IPD sez it's a heavier duty MTL
So my initial point in my post: What happened to the IPD Brain Trust...as the Tech page sez TypeF and synth motor oil.
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What advice they now provide usually points to something they have for sale.
No longer Richard and sone Robert Gordon's iPd. He soled the company. Richard Gordon passed in 2014.
That culture was there, and I saw a bit of it in 1989-1990 trying to get a job at iPd and Jim Fisher Volvo in Portland. No job either way.
You will also note I do not cite iPd list of 10 problems for 240 for newbie 240 owners anyhoo (video / You Tube video).
Yet the brain trust in the newer 21st century owners of 240, 740, and maybe less so 940 versus the first or second group of used RWD Volvo owners, is not so great also. Cut springs. Giant wheels with spacers. Weld open diffs, break axle or the welded up diff. No root cause analysis to no start, run a wire from the battery to the fuel pump. Hack the wire harness. Have a fire. Dexron fluid in M46 / M47. Put M47 behind a +Turbo (N/A with Turbo and engine control added). Some M47s last yet most do not.
What we may be seeing is sort of the beginning of the end for RWD Volvo enthusiasm. Though I'll guess we can keep on keepin' it on. If we have a garage ...
I continue to find iPd publications, videos, and their website to be informative and useful.
My concern is electrolytic and other capacitors in the LH-Jetronic / EZK or, well, any 240 engine control units. Yet use other resources also.
The Amsoil SuperShift 10W racing fluid does well in my M47s. Maybe a blend of synthetic Type F and a 75W GL-4 with yellow metal additives may be best?
--
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