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Out of the blue, my daughter's 1991 940SE wagon refuses to allow the key to turn all the way to the start position. Run position is fine-steering wheel unlocks,indicator lights all come on, radio. But when you try for a start, the key stops just shy of that position. The radio powers off (as it does when normally starting car), but the key does not complete the motion and no starter action. The shifter is always free to move from any position to any other-it's not being locked with key off or out. I tried engaging the starter in all key positions in case it's the P/N safety switch-no good. This car is basically a 1991 960 on the inside (they were not imported that year) with a 740/940 turbo drive train.Any help appreciated.
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I think I messed myself up. On Saturday I sprayed just a little Teflon lube into the lock. I had been working it after that just fine. On Sunday I turned on the ignition(to open windows), reinstalled the center dash (to reinstall the radio later), and had my daughter try to start the car. Neither her key nor mine will now move the lock off position "0". The question now is, did that spray finally jam the lock (and is it permanent?) or did putting the trim back on the front of the dash somehow jam it?
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It may now be a lost cause, needing the cylinder to be drilled out to allow the steering wheel to unlock. I had to have this done to a 940SE at a dealer some years ago. Many on this board haven't had experience with this particular (tilting) steering column and high-security (laser cut key) steering lock, it's completely different from the standard 740/940 column/lock. As I mentioned in my previous post, this lock is found on late 760, 940SE (SE only) and early 960 cars and suffers from fragile tumblers. Once they've started to break up inside the cylinder, the key won't turn, and there's apparently no way to free it or remove the cylinder. The (excellent) Volvo mechanic explained that at that point the official remedy is to replace the column. My solution was to leave the cylinder drilled out, remove the ignition electrical switch from the other side of the column and JB Weld a stubby key into it. Works fine.
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67 144, 85 740T, 86 740T, 91 945SE, BMW R69S, R60/2
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So when you drilled out the cylinder the column unlocked? How did you drill it out-what bit(s) did you use. It seems like once drilled out, the remains of the cylinder should be able to turn-once it turns to position I or II the cylinder can be removed.
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As I was 500 miles from home at the time, the mechanic drilled it out. It was a pretty brutal job, nothing really left of the old cylinder. At that point the car was started using a screwdriver through the drilled opening.
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67 144, 85 740T, 86 740T, 91 945SE, BMW R69S, R60/2
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That ignition lock mechanism for the 940 SE and later 960s sounds like it can be a horror show compared to the regular 740/940 ignitions. I was starting to drool over a nice 940 SE I saw for sale a while ago. Looks like the ignition lock is one more reason to avoid them and stick with the regular live axle 940s.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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IIRC teflon is a type of plastic made by DuPont and teflon lube is supposed to contain colloid (microscopic) particles of this plastic. You could try to take out the ignition switch (the electrical switch) again to really see if its the switch or ignition tumbler at issue. I occasionally use graphite spray (and sometimes light machine oil) to lubricate the ignition tumbler but never teflon lube.
I think teflon (PTFE) is ok for open type of mechanical lubrication. I don't think it is suitable for locks (tumblers) though.
See:
https://www.fluoramics.com/wp-content/uploads/EPQ217_52-54.pdf
Amarin.
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Dear Amarin,
Hope you're well. The Teflon-loaded sprays I use are made by DuPont or Black&Decker. I've used these for over 30 years. None has been problematic as a lock lubricant.
The article, to which you kindly posted a link, is most interesting. It focuses on use of Teflon in engine lubricants, i.e., in a very harsh environment. There, a poorly-engineered lubricant not only fails, but can do great damage.
I think the problem with the graphite-loaded lock lubricant I used had to do with the oil, used to get the graphite to where it was needed.
Most oil-based lubricants "gum" at low temperatures, i.e., at about -50⁰F (-46⁰C. Teflon-based lubricants maintain lubricity to temperatures lower than any found in the environment, i.e., to -240⁰F (ca. -150⁰C).
In short, Teflon-based lock lubricants have served me well, in a temperate climate. I cannot say how they'll perform where ambient temperatures are far higher. As locks are not a "high stress" environment, though, I've no reason to think that a well-engineered Teflon-based lubricant will be problematic.
Hope this helps.
Yours faithfully,
Spook
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Dear sredwine,
Hope you're well. If the Teflon lube contained no solids, e.g., graphite dust, then lube is not likely to cause problems.
I once used a graphite-loaded liquid lubricant that did "gum-up" a rear hatch lock. I removed the lock from the hatch and removed the lock cylinder from its housing. I flushed the cylinder with brake cleaner and re-lubed with a pure teflon lubricant. That lock has been fine. Lesson learned!
In short, some liquid lock lubricants - if graphite-loaded - can be a problem. A lubricant that is clear - has no solids - shouldn't be a problem.
The parts diagram in Volvo VADIS - a superseded dealer parts/service database - shows that the '91 940s do not have a cable, that connects the lock mechanism to the transmission. Such a cable - if out-of-adjustment - might keep the key from moving. The '93 and later cars have such a cable.
Hope this helps.
Yours faithfully,
Spook
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Ok, made some headway.The lock cylinder seems fine. All detents are in the switch. The lock is on the right side of the column, the switch is on the left. A rod connects the lock to the switch-it runs through the column and has a large oval cutout on its right side that engages a matching lug on the inner end of the lock cylinder. The left side of the rod engages a keyed slot in the inner end of the switch. I took the switch apart and see no damage-no significant wear, no cracked or broken pot metal or plastic. I shaved a little plastic off the cam in the switch to allow the start contact (#50) to be engaged a little early. The car starts and runs, but you have to move the switch back just a little to fully engage run position (#3). That cam was what moved the switch back to #2 (with pressure from a spring in the switch). My dilemma is still what to replace? Looseness in any of the connections between the end of the lock cylinder and the switch could explain my symptom. I see no wear or cracks anywhere. The rod that runs through the column may or may not be one piece-there could be slop there if it's two pieces or more.
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In the 850/70 cars, the electrical portion of the switch wears out, causing the same problems you have. The replacement is easy. The spring itself will weaken with age, as will the oval cutout made of soft aluminum or pot metal.
We were all told early on not to have a bunch of keys or weights on the keychain. The rod running through the column is a single piece.
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The high-security locks on later 760, 940SE, early 960 were a problem. Excerpt from an old article I have from 1993:
"In 1988, Volvo started using high security locks on the 760 and 780 models. In 1991, the 940SE and 960 were added. From 1988 through 1992, they used die cast tumblers in these locks, and these tumblers are not holding up to heavy use. The largest percentage of problems is with the ignition cylinder. The second major problem is with the driver's door cylinder, as these receive the most use."
The article goes on to give instructions to replace these with 1993+ cylinders which are better made. I had the same problem with our 940SE, had to drill out the cylinder after been stranded on a road trip. Also later had to change out the driver's door lock to a regular style key type. I was told DO NOT spray with liquid lube as that gums up these locks, try a bit of graphite maybe.
Article: Photo Story Volvo Ignition, 10/93 Reed's Security Reporter, by Hank Spicer
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67 144, 85 740T, 86 740T, 91 945SE, BMW R69S, R60/2
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Had a similar issue. Tried my spare key and it worked fine. Main key was worn down.
--
Post Back. That's whats makes this forum work.
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The 940SE is a 960 so it has the soft high security keys which wear much faster and the whole lock system is a PIA.
You may try a new key ordered from dealer, if still available, they were quite reasonable a few years back, like $35. If that doesn't work, you will need a new ignition. You may be able to remove the old one depending on how far the key turns, or if not, it has to be drilled out. In the past I have used 850 ignitions, they are the same as the SE. Used they are quite cheap, new, not! I rekeyed my last 940SE with an 850 ignition and 740/940 locks in the doors and the trunk. One of the things I hate about the 1991 SEs...
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I just don't think it's worn keys. Both keys would have had to wear out at the same exact time-probably a billion-to-one chance of that happening. Now who knows about the system that keeps the start position from being engaged if the engine is running? I'm pretty sure this car has that. Can't test it now, of course!
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Dear sredwine,
Hope you're well. Volvo factory keys - at least for 940s - are made of steel. I just tested mine, with a magnet, to make sure.
On 940s, it is possible to move the key to the "Start" position, while the engine is turning. I did this by error a few weeks ago. The starter's sprocket briefly touched the ring gear's teeth. I doubt much damage was done.
I think the problem you report has to do with a transmission interlock, that needs adjustment. To remove the key from my 940, I have to turn the ignition switch just far enough for the instrument cluster's lights to come on. I then move the shift lever to "R". I can then turn the key all the way to the left and remove it. I then move the shift lever to park. I'll troubleshoot this shortly.
Hope this helps.
Yours faithfully,
Spook
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True, but the 1991 940SE is not a 940 but a 960 with a B230FT with "high security" keys made, I believe of brass, and much softer so they wear much faster. Besides the keys being different, the entire lock mechanism is also unlike the 940s.
It is unlikely that both keys would be worn exactly the same as not to work the ignition at this point.
The interlock system I believe is identical to the one on the 940s.
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I've done some reading of my 940 schematics in the Haynes manual. There is a starter lockout switch-I assume connected to the shifter. If it was misadjusted or open I should get no start, but the switch should still move to the start position. There's also a shift lock relay and solenoid that should prevent the shifter from moving out of park when the brake pedal is not pressed. It says in the text that something prevents the starter from being engaged if the key has not been returned to the off position in Park. No clue exactly how that works, but my first check is going to be the shifter position switch. It apparently has two sections-one is the reverse light switch, the other is the park and neutral switch. Not clearly shown on the schematics. I have also heard there is a mechanical linkage (wire in a sheath maybe?) between the steering column and the shifter-this may be just a rumor. Does anybody know where the relays live on this car? I know the fuses are on the left end of the dashboard.
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Your relays are in the middle console, the panel on the pass. side pops off.
Yes, there is a cable connected to the shifter from the ignition.
Your key should turn all the way to the "start" position, I understand that it doesn't? If this is the case, the key moving all the way through the stages except to the final 'start', then I'm pretty sure the problem is in the ignition lock itself.
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To add my two cents on a car I've never seen the inside of, it makes sense to me the internal contacts, if broken, of the switch itself (not the lock) are the only thing that could be keeping a key from moving all the way to the start position if it makes it to KP-II. The switch is where the spring-return for the start contact lives.
On other cars, the switch is easily, separately replaceable.
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore
Being right is highly overrated. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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I agree with Art, it could well be the switch and not the lock and associated lockout mechanisms such as the key removal cable or neutral (Park) safety switch to the starter solenoid. Once you get the key in the lock and are able to turn it, it's basically the ignition switch providing the detente positions and spring loading. Like Art says, something jammed inside the switch, like a broken/bent badly worn contact. It's basically sealed, so foreign matter shoudn't get in.
To the OP, definitely soft key material makes for a wear problem, but as you say, why both keys? I guess it's possible for something to prevent the key barrel from turning all the way in the ignition. The pins in the keyway aren't generally a wear problem, but a long pin could get bent from brute force or get a burr on it from abnormal wear. Just for jokes, if you haven't done it already, try throughly flushing the keyway and even around the barrel with spray WD-40 to see if that dislodges anything, followed by a lock lubricant.
Now I've had to replace two ignition switches in just the last year due to wear. Both ignition lock and ignition switch wear can be aggravated by using a heavy key set. Have you been using a heavy key fob or have a lot of keys on it?
If it is a worn ignition switch, as Art and I are guessing, then replacing the ignition switch section on the back is quite straightforward. 940/960 and 850 ignition switches are all the same. You just pull off the wire connector from the back and remove two slot head screws. Easier said than done though. In 940s, and likely worse in 960s, the two screws are extremely difficult to access from below. The upper screw is particularly daunting, working blind using assorted small bent screwdrivers, skinned knuckles, much profanity and a sore back.
Much, much simpler is to pull the instrument cluster and work from above where you can get your fingers in and easily see what you're doing with the aid of a flashlight and a hand mirror -have the kick panel off underneath for added light and to catch dropped screws. Pulling an instrument cluster the first time can be a bit daunting, but once you get to know what trim needs to be removed in order to get at the screws it's a lot easier. Practice makes perfect. In the 940s, and likely the 960s, there are slots in the metal bezel where you poke in a long and thin shafted flat blade screwdriver to pry the side clips inward so you can pull out one side then the other, Around the edge of the cluster you may need to slip in a few wide thin blades to separate it from impressions in the dash material. IMO, well worth spending the extra time to learn how to do it compared to struggling from below the dash. Additional cluster removal tips can be found in the FAQ, in posts both here and in other Volvo forums and elsewhere on-line, maybe even a Youtube video if you're really lucky. Start a separate thread if you need more help with removal.
Now, if you really think it has something to do with the key removal cable, then (this applies to 940s and is likely similar in 960s), remove the ash tray and holder and lift the metal cross bar off its pin on the right. Right in the middle below that is the cable with a hex-sided adjuster sleeve. You could always try pulling that back and forward a bit with bent needle nose pliers to see if that makes any difference in key travel. I recall the cable is loosest when in the Park position, but it may be the other way around. The end of that cable has a ball ferrel that sits in a spring loaded lever under the shifter surround.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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pULL ANY ENTIRE STEERING COLUMN OUT OF A LOW MILEAGE WRECK. WHY DEAL W ALL THE HARD SHIPS?/
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"Once you get the key in the lock and are able to turn it, it's basically the ignition switch providing the detente positions and spring loading"
Disassambled ignition switch.
1. Detent pin could have been jammed (arrow).
2. Detent pin acts against the switch's metal cover.
3. Plastic cam spins with the key to determine which contact to close (ie. turn on).
4. No spiral spring inside.
5. Its only the detent pin which provides resistance turning to Start.
To OP:
Remove the ignition switch as per Dave's instruction, insert key and you should be able to turn the key till start. If so, replace switch.
Amarin.
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Aha, that's what they look like inside. I haven't bothered to crack one open yet. Almost definitely that pin is broken or something is jammed up against it! Thanks to Amarin for going to that effort.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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I was coming back to this thread to suggest if the 940 had a separate ignition switch like the 240 that it could be the problem.
The problem might be a cheaper Beck-Arnley switch I ran into that brand new that was nowhere near the quality of the Bosch switch. New it was hanging up and not smooth, I wasn't about to put it in my car.
Dave Did you have trouble with the 240 tumbler part of the ignition assembly?
Dan
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No problem with the lock itself, just the worn ignition switch. Replaced the original Genuine Volvo switch with the OEM quality Kostal switch from FCPEuro -looks virtually identical. I've occasionally had problems with key wear affecting door locks first and later the ignition. When getting a new key, it's best to have a Volvo Parts counter punch out a new key using the key code rather than the traditional method of having a worn key traced onto a new blank using a key cutting grinder. Having said that, I ran into one dealer who obviosuly had a worn die punch set as we had to burnish the keys heavily to get them to work properly.
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Dave -still with 940's, prev 740/240/140/120 You'd think I'd have learned by now
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Dear sredwine,
Hope you're well. Yes! According to a parts diagram in Volvo VADIS - a superseded dealer parts/service program - the relays are mounted behind a panel on the console-side of the passenger's footwell. As I've never owned or worked-on a 940SE, I do not know how that panel is removed.
Hope this helps.
Yours faithfully,
Spook
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Tried both our keys-same exact response. And this was very sudden with no difficulty turning either key, then this happened. I suspect it's involved with the shift lock-it's acting as if it's been started and is running-that explains the shifter moving freely and the starter position being locked out. Does anybody know where to start? Steering column? Shifter? Mechanical? Electrical? I'm very familiar with 740s, most 940s, and later 960s, but this car is not really like any of those. Shifter looks like a 740 (big squared off knob), fuses are on the left end of the dash.
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Use ome lock lube,,spray a big dose in there & I bet it will flush it out??
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