Hello fellow brickers!


It's been an interesting time of late with my volvo of late.

1) Had some serious alternator issues-
-Replaced the alternator
-car ran again for a bit, then died, then upon fcharging nnew battery longer and driving for a bit, the alternator started working right or something and it was fine. (suspect the battery had to reset itself on its own timeline or something cause it started working fine again with new alternator)

2) Everything was going well for about a week until just recently, the car started jerking and misfiring and lurching and losing/gaining power.....I recognize it as timing belt failure as it happened to me about 10 years ago on same car and it was the timing belt. I did not do it then, I didn't have enough experience or skill like I kinda do today!

It would make sense that its the timing belt as its been somewhere btwn 50-80K miles.

If someone suspects something else, let me know.

3) IF it is a timing belt issue, I'm considering the replacement kit from IPD (big fan), I am pretty sure I should replce the water pump.

MY QUESSTION: Is a kit the way to go? How original volvo are the kits? Should I do the seals? If I do the seals, what is a good tool/way to get them out of their positions?

I'll stop here and most likely have further questions.....

Engine: B230
Transmission: M47 5 speed

Did you check the crank position sensor?

Did you check for vacuum leaks at the intake manifold?

Thanks c1800.

Pretty sure I changed out the Crank Position Sensor a while ago. I can check the wires going to it to make sure those are ok. ANd the vacuum hoses I have looked at and they are all connected well. But will check again.

Hi, I was referring to the possibility that the intake manifold gasket is leaking. Too much leakage and she’ll run like the video you posted. Checking involves spraying something like carb cleaner around the intake manifold where it mates to the head. If things improve while you’re spraying that may be the culprit.

Check out YouTube, and I’m compelled to say, be careful, do so at your own risk. I.e. always the possibility of ignition of the fluid. Even water would might work.

https://www.hunker.com/13414896/how-to-find-a-vacuum-leak-with-propane

Also, what about the PCV valve?

Speaking of vacuum leaks, in my earlier post I was referring to a bad (leaking) intake manifold gasket. Had that happen on my 90 240. Not an uncommon problem on these engines. These leaks are harder to find than a vacuum hose cracks/leaks. Be patient. Try to search all sides of the intake manifold gasket as best you can. Ask me how I know this..:)
--
Will I buy another Volvo??? We'll see....

UPDATE:

-OBD Codes 1-1-1 in both #2 and #6 slots...lot of help there haha

-Broken EGR pipe, from exhaust manifold to EGR vavle
this might explain the sudden bad running if the engine. I've read up on it and if the EGR isn't working correctly, the idle will be rough.

Still not completely sold as to why its bucking and wheezing so badly in the idle.
Today I have to disconnect the AMM and see how she runs.

If you are certain the timing belt is at or beyond 50k miles of service, time for a replacement. Continental / ContiTech is Volvo OEM quality (or was as China Geely owning Volvo now).

Arm chair root cause analysis is sort of hard in this guess fest, to use Art's accurate phrase, so, some general tips on what to look for.

Timing Belt

If the timing belt was the cause, the belt may slip a tooth on a crank or one of the two cam timing gears. The slip, of skip, may prevent engine start, or the engine would run so terribly as to not be operable safely.


OBD-1 Test Box

You are in the corrosion belt of Queens NY as I am in the toilet of St. Louis, MO. If you have continuity through the wire harness the issue may be corrosion at the OBD box on the backside of the left side inner fender.

https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineOBDCodes.htm

Read through: Can't Obtain an OBD Code? Malfunctioning OBD Code Reader?

A wiggle can do wonders. Yet you have the all clear 1-1-1 in OBD socket 2 (fuel) and OBD socket 6 (ignition) engine control.


Battery and Fuses

The battery cable lugs are secure to the battery? The cabling at the rear of the alternator are secure? Use a nut driver to tighten that hardware. You own a electric multimeter? Can you test for volts at the battery on a cold start (around 14.5 VDC) or as is warmed up (around 13.8 VDC).

The battery does not reset itself on it's own timeline. You are working with an electromechanical system. Root cause analysis though the intersecting subsystems make for a paradox at times when finding root cause.

You use the lightest of key chains. RWD drive Volvo ignition key locks and ignition switches want a light key chain. If you hang dozens of other keys and tools on it, that can cause problems in both the ignition key lock and switch. Become practiced with not locking yourself out of house and home, however.

You do know to spin the fuses in the fuse box? What about the oft-mention 1990 and older LH-Jetronic engine BAY ATC fuse. Corrosion can form there. Here is Art's write up from his clean flame trap site that does not offer a TOC after all these years.

http://cleanflametrap.com/emfuse.html

Corrosion can form at any bonded contact. Like the back side of the fuse box.


Power to Fuel Pump(s). Fuel Level in Tank Corresponding to 'Bucking?

Also, Art, who posts here in your thread, provide guidance as to testing the fuel pumps. You should hear both run. Someone here made mention of the intank, pre, or transfer pump. At 1/2 or less full fuel tank, if original factory install intank prepump and send, a small fuel line section deteriorates and the prepump out put returns to the tank, so the main, or inline, pump, loses priming. More so on turns or if going up hill or down hill(?). I forget inclination or declination.

Does a full or nearly empty gas tank change this behavior?

You do not describe the nature of this bucking? Do you know engine bogging, where the engine is at idle, and warm or cold you depress the gas pedal and it bucks and seems to want to stall yet does not go until moving at 25-25 MPH? Could be the throttle position switch. These can fail do to intrusion of engine bay grime or wear, and the failure threshold in the Bosch engine control won't report it in fault codes.

How many miles? Auto or manual transmission?


Electrics and Sensors?

I'd guess fest the cause sounds like an intermittent electrical issue. Check the fuel injector relay. Swap in with a known good relay. Parts like these in the trunk and on the shelf are useful.

Also, there is the engine crankshaft position sensor (CPS) at the back of the engine. Has this been replaced that you know of? An inspection of the sheathing, and if split, may suggest fault there. Should be replaced by now. Sort of doubt it as failure here is a no-start or stalling condition with engine shutdown. A code is set in socket six.

Engine Bay Environment

Engine belly pan installed? If not, though the failure may result in an engine fire, the B+ circuit between the alternator, starter motor (not the solenoid), and the battery + post routes behind the crank pulley. With oil and grime or an otherwise filthy engine bay, insulation can fail. I doubt the cause.

EGR?
A broken EGR pipe at what end? Near the manifold connection end or at the EGR valve?

Failed EGR piping results in one or more EGR faults usually in socket 6 as EGR is monitored by and controlled by the Bosch EZK116 ignition ECU.

The loud exhaust note itself suggest you have exhaust leaks elsewhere? There is a nut to plug the hole in the exhaust where the EGR pipe would secure.

I'm unsure, yet NY-state emissions control inspection is as bad as CA-state.

EGR piping usually clogs from the intake port manifold end backwards. Eventually, a fault code is set as exhaust gasses do not pass through the system when the engine is warmed up.

So, I'm gonna guess you cleared the codes or you have faulty power connection to the ECU maybe through the in engine bay engine management fuse. In a 30-year old 240, that fuse and fuse holder assembly should have been replaced by now with something better, as Art recommends in this aforementioned link to Art's cleanflametrap site.

http://cleanflametrap.com/emfuse.html


What am I on About? Brake Fluid?

Finally, I have to ask, what is the brake fluid color in the brake fluid reservoir? Better not be black or seized brake calipers are the result. Use a Motive brand pressure power bleeder. Though regular inspection of the braking system helps.

Questions?

Hope that helps.

Unemployed Technical Writer
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LINK TO VIDEO OF ENGINE RUNNING

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saU8BI8_2do

FOrgive my language. Sorry for the expletives and what not. I wasn't in the best mood. THis video was taken a week and a half ago. Yesterday I replaced sprak plugs and wires and ran it without AMM and it was the same.
The gas pedal or even the throttle wheel inside do nothinkg to affect engine running so badly. That seems to tell me a fuel issue, but I'm no expert.


Really appreciate your help and advice. Appreciate everyone on here with any help they've given. Good people.

It seems to be a fuel delivery problem. Lean mixture. AMM is fine.

First remove the gas cap and run the engine. Gas caps may have to let in air to replace fuel being sucked out, to prevent vacuum from forming in tank?

There may be a clog in the fuel line from the tank (fuel filter?). Disconnect and blow out.


--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.

Also,

Started and ran car with AMM out and it acted the same....

Kittysgreyvolvo,

Ok, where to begin......

1) Figured out battery issue and got car starting again
-runs extremely badly
-pressing gas pedal or manually pulling throttle wheel in engine bay does nothing; no response from engine
-wheezes and bucks and lurches
-engine moves side to side the worst I've ever seen...dangerously and definitely inoperable for driving (engine mounts replaced in last 4 months and appear sturdy)

2) Replaced Sparkplugs and sparkplug wires: NO CHANGE
-didn't replace rotor as it upon inspection it looked ok.

3) OBD codes
-in #2 slot (haha): no code...no response upon holding button down for alotted time:
not working; figuring a connection inside the OBD unit is shot or not making connection
-in #6 slot: still responding 1-1-1

4) My Prognosis: Either timing belt (based on your rec that the car would run so badly that it would be inoperable OR faulty fuel line . Either fuel pump is bad or fuel filter is clogged up terribly.

NOTE: Due to less than desirable circumstances of car storage at the moment, I didn't take off flywheel and pulley to get top timing belt case cover off. I did take out the bolts that I could get at for it and was able to look in and see that it looks ok, BUT I was not able to view it while running. I'd need to take off crankshaft pulley and belts and flywheel to fully take cover off. So timing belt is still on the table as a possible problem....

EGR: the EGR pipe that runs from EGR unit to exhaust manifold is broke at exhaust manifold. Ordered replacement part, but I don't think this would cause the car to be running sooo badly upon idle, I may be wrong. Also, I don't think it would cause the engine to not respong to the gas pedal being pressed....but who am I...

Sorry for my late reply.

The instrument cluster has the lighted CHECK ENGINE on?

(1)

If the EGR pipe is broken, and I can hear an exhaust leak in your video - and thank you for your video link, helps greatly - such a leak, which is both an exhaust leak and may be a a relatively large intake (vacuum) leak, will affect how the engine runs.

The exhaust leak at the broken EGR pipe is cause for the oxygen sensor encountering an incorrect mass of exhaust, much less an inaccurate measure of oxygen in the exhaust gas the oxygen sensor encounters.

At the other end of the broken EGR pipe, the air intake side of the broken pipe, if the EGR system works, and the vacuum-controlled EGR valve works and is open, albeit with reduced air intake manifold negative pressure, will serve in this broken EGR pipe condition as a relatively large air induction intake leak.

So, you will want to some how plug both ends of the EGR pipe as it won't run at all well.



So, you need to maintain emissions controls on the engine in the engine bay. Or at least the appearance of a working emission control.

That EGR pipe, the first EGR pipe between the exhaust manifold and the input at the EGR valve, is no longer available from Volvo. I believe, yet am not certain, several versions of this first EGR pipe exist for Turbo, quattrovalve B234, and the normally aspired redblock you and my 1991 240 from Germany have. The three different EGR pipe vary in length more or less as the exhaust manifold varies in shape.

You reside in Queens, I see. So, you may not have the option of plugging exhaust manifold hole for the EGR pipe using this:

Volvo PN 986816 M16 x 1.5
https://www.tascaparts.com/oem-parts/volvo-plug-986816

http://www.skandix.de/en/spare-parts/exhaust/manifold/plug-exhaust-manifold-m16x15/1004322/


You use a copper alloy crush washer, Volvo PN 11998, between the hex bolt plug and the manifold.

https://www.volvopartswebstore.com/products/Volvo/Gasket-Part-no-longer-available/1134783/11998.html

The part number is the same as that used for the manual transmission and engine drain copper crush washers? I used to recall a different copper alloy washer meant for the thermal application. Probably wrong.

https://www.tascaparts.com/oem-parts/volvo-oil-drain-plug-seal-11998

At any rate, somehow seal the exhaust leak and the EGR pipe intake leak. The EGR system tends to clog at the air intake end in engines using mineral motor oil. Yet if the engine draws air through the intake pipe it is a vacuum and so will cause the engine to run poorly. Yet may not cause the symptom your describe as a non-responsive gas pedal.

You would plug the hole the second EGR pipe connects to at the air induction intake manifold. A diamond-shape gasket section with holes for a section of metal or other material to seal that hole and remove EGR from the engine. Though the EGR is controlled by the Bosch EZK116 ignition computer so you may get a CHECK ENGINE light.



(2)

On your 1989 240, the timing belt cover is in two halves. You can remove the upper half of the timing cover. See the upper half of the timing cover here in this PDF file (copy and paste URL into new browser tab or window):

http://www.stepbystepvolvo.com/Resources/740%20timing%20belt1.pdf

The images are that of 700-900. In 240 Both water pump belts are for the wasser pumpen, crank pulley, and alt, so you can remove the upper cover with so much difficulty. See the first image of the PDF page 5. With the upper cover removed you can check how much slack on the long belt run between the upper cam t-belt gear and the intermediate (oil pump-distributor). At essence, there should not be any slack in a timing belt. If you find slack, your diagnosis may be correct. Sort of doubt it. Yet it is possible.

(3)

OBD socket two no response. No red light when pressing the button with the OBD box probe in socket 2. Well, read HERE in the section titled ...

Can't Obtain an OBD Code? Malfunctioning OBD Code Reader? in:

https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineOBDCodes.htm

You do have a multi-meter with continuity and/or ohms resistance check?

Some Deox-IT D spray or maybe some spray alcohol into the OBD may work. A the OBD box works with ignition socket socket 6, clean socket 2 (fuel injection) using something like emery cloth twisted up and spray clean with solvent free something like isopropyl alcohol or a careful blast of brake parts cleaner.


(4)


You brake fluid is both black and low. Consider the braking compromised and the 240 unsafe to drive. Black brake fluid leads to seized brake calipers.

(5)

The underside of the rotor and distributor capo also appear okay? The button not worn down under the cap? Do you have a multimeter and can test for volts at the battery post? If yes, what is the voltage?

(6)

As our colleague Mr. JWalker walker suggests a test of the fuel pressure regulator. The FPR can fail in a few ways without fuel leaking through the vacuum line. If your battery has enough power (volts) and energy (amps), well, I hope fuel delivery is not an issue as Mr. Walker and other I guess suggest here.

(7)

If the accelerator pedal, when you press it, does not raise RPMs, the throttle position switch could be filthy inside or faulty other wise.

Uncertain what else to suggest now in my (As Art Benstein calls it ) guess festival.

Read here also.

https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EnginePerformanceSymptoms.htm

Maybe search fro these symptoms using the search feature.

The fleas are eating me as they have for the last 43 months in this gulag dung heap I reside in in this toilet riparian zone named St. Louis the dungheap, MO. And the people sort of suck here, also, what with all the gangstalking I encounter here and in Spokane and elsewhere in toilet 'Murika. So, well I'll move on to the RWD Volvo facebook forums.

Questions?

Hope that helps.

MacDuff.
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MacDuff,

This is an excellent assessment of my issues. Extremely thankful. This will help me get her back together for the long haul. Currently not that capable to work on. Trying to get access to an indoor space to conduct some overhauling on her, but for now, she's in a lot that's safe, but its outdoor so the rain and surroundings somwhat limit my abilities.

I digress, lets start from the top:

1) EGR Pipe and system:

Listening to what you said about this and assessing how the bad engine running happened all of a sudden, the broken EGR pipe seems more and more like the likely culprit.

So, I already was trying to replace it and hopefully, the part I found online will be the right one and will fit.

https://www.volvopartshub.com/p/Volvo_1989_245/EGR-PIPE/53997335/1357029.html

I researched it via my bentley and the diagrams this website has, it looks like a match. I received it this week and haven't had a chance to take it over to the volvo and see if its a match. Planning on doing that in next two days. And I will assess the whole system, probably should have gotten a new EGR valve as this may be plugged and casued the break, possibly? But either way, I will be taking it all out and assessing.

2) Timing belt:

I definitly need to replace mine sooner than later. I was able to partially remove the upper timing belt cover. I could not get it to come out below the water pump area, seemed stuck...If I can get her running decently, I will hold off on this til I can get it indoors to do, instead of on a gravel/grass crappy pavement.


3) OBD Socket

Will clean that puppy out

4) Brake Fluid

Hadn't noticed. Will take a closer look. Youre probably right, haven't changed the fluid in some time...

5)-7) . Will check all these also. Know I did the FPR a good 5-7 years ago, but we'll see.

The work is there to be done....jsut gotta find the time and place to do it


Thanks Again,

Marc

Huh. Well now. Both EGR pipes are again (???) available?

Here is the Tasca Volvo Parts take on this.

Egr Pipe - Volvo (1357029) PN 1357029 (Exhaust Manifold to EGR Valve inlet)

https://www.tascaparts.com/oem-parts/volvo-egr-pipe-1357029





Egr Pipe - Volvo (3517406) 3517406 (EGR Valve outlet to Intake Manifold)

This pipe usually clogs and you have to clean it. I guess yours is not clogged.

https://www.tascaparts.com/oem-parts/volvo-egr-pipe-3517406




You could temporarily plug the exhaust manifold hole and more so the air intake manifold EGR holes and see how that helps.

Though glad you can get these again. They were, so far as I recall, no longer available. I know as I pulled used EGR pipes and have some spares for the 1991 240 with EGR.

Perhaps you have to remove the water pump fan and of course, the radiator shroud or cowl to do it.

Glad that helps.

Happy Monday.

Unemployed Dud.
--
"A guy resides 170 miles away from the world's largest nuclear disaster dump remediation site in the state with the Seattle Mariners. The have tech writer jobs like once or more a year. That guy applies to these job roles. Nothing. No response. As he was sick and tired of being 170 miles away and not getting any response. He relcoates alone, at own expense, with no help from anyone to a region he hates even more, with the stupid arches and the stupider NHL hockey blues. The persecution continues for 43 months up to his last public outing as we celebrate the day Mexico ousted the invading French. Yet he tried and applied in 2016 after returning to arches city, realizing what a huge and massive mistake he did, as he should have never left Spokane. So, voila, after the seventh or ninth application in earlt 2019, they want to hired this guy. 2000 miles away, all alone, on his final dollar, with no help.

The guy can't get his rah-rah going. The crassness of it. So close and no reply. Employed for ten months out of the last 43 since arrival in toilet town with the MLB baseball cardinals and a huge entitlement sense.

Perhaps he'll contact them and beg that he changed his mine, and he'll schlepp three Volvo 240, and small mountain of boxes full of hobbies, and hopes persecution halts. Say no to gangstalking."
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I don’t think it is your timing belt unless it has jumped a tooth or two. I once ran my 90’s t-belt for more than 100k with zero issues. Just removed the cover and checked it periodically.

No codes for fuel issues. If the engine is shaking that violently it could be a very bad FPR (fuel pressure regulator). A friend’s 740 did that. Pull the vacuum hose off the fuel rail. If fuel inside or strong smell of gas the FPR is bad. As mentioned by KGV, if it only happens with less than a 1/2 tank of gas it could be the in-tank pump. If the main pump is truly bad the car won’t run or run for very long...:)

A totally clogged catalytic converter might cause those symptoms.

I also suggest doing a search for vacuum leaks. A bad intake manifold gasket will also make the car run like real cr**.....

Will I buy another Volvo??? We'll see....

I don't know about the running problems but a 10 year old timing belt is WAY past its prime - or useful life. My guess would be if you pulled off the top cover you'll find the top surface of the belt dry and cracked. I don't think the belt is related to the running issues but have you ever retensioned it?

Thanks for reply,


I have never re-tensioned it. I think I will probably do the belt in the near future, as it has been a long time since I had it done. I don't drive too many miles with her, but its probably a good thing to do, as its definitely been well over 50k miles since.


Thanks

I’m not so sure I would replace a non-leaking water pump, regardless of age/miles. It can always be replaced later without disturbing the timing belt installation. Once you remove the belt you can try wiggling the shaft and see if there is play in the bearing.
--
Current rides: 2005 Volvo S80 2.5T, 2003 Volvo V70 2.4NA, 1973 Volvo 1800ES (getting ever closer to road worthiness)

Thanks, I ahve to inspect the water pump further, might not be a timing belt problem, but my timing belt is old as heck, so I will probably do it sooner than later.

Yes, doing a water pump with a timing belt is typical advice given for engines which drive the pump from the belt being replaced, like some FWD cars. Doesn't apply here, at least not for that reason.

"Hi Neighbor! Gonna change my t-belt next weekend."
"Oh, sounds like fun! Be sure to get a new water pump."
--
Art Benstein near Baltimore

If tomatoes are technically a fruit, is ketchup a smoothie?

It may not be the timing belt. What are the OBD (On Board Diagnostic) codes?
--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.

Thanks for replying,

My OBD hasn't been eworking well at all. I had her towed yesterday to get it out of the street. It needed a boost to start, which is weird that the brand new alternator and newish battery aren't holding a good cahrge. It ran jumpy and jerky and ultimately died.

The tow truck operator thought it might just need a tune-up and that the spark plugs are at fault. He said if the timing belt was shot, the car wouldn;t engine would n't crank at all....which I didn't know.

I admit, I am not sure the last time I did a tune-up, probably last summer or fall. I had some overhaul jobs that I had to perfomr on her over the winter, so a tune-up got lost in the shuffle.

NEXT THING: -tune up (new spark plugs, new spark plug wires, new rotor and clean out the throttle body and AMM.
-check codes again, but my OBD wasn't even lighting up last time I tried it.
-I need to find out if my car requires a 80 or 100 amp alternator, I got a 80 amp one cause it matched the electrical connections of the old one and bracket attachments, but I'm wondering if its not strong enough to keep the battery charged, not sure


Thanks Again

"It ran jumpy and jerky and ultimately died."
Add gas. Often the hose attached to the in-tank pump deteriorates preventing the proper intake of gas below that level.

The car should run with the AMM disconnected. (Disconnect and reconnect with keys out of ignition.)

"He said if the timing belt was shot, the car wouldn;t engine would n't crank at all."
With the timing belt gone the engine will crank (too) easily because the cam and idler shafts aren't being turned. (Cams and rotor not moving.)

"I need to find out if my car requires a 80 or 100 amp alternator"
Probably came with an 80. Mine came with a 55. But now with a 100 from a 740.


--
1980 245 Canadian B21A with SU carb, M46 trans, 3:31 dif, in Brampton, Ont.

An 80 amp alternator should be sufficient enough to keep the battery up. The very later years may have needed 100amps with an electric fan, heated seats, bigger stereos etc. With those items off 80 is fine unless you have it idling the majority of time -- or your trips consist of 1 or 2 miles a dozen times a day. You should have your battery charged fully before coming to a conclusion and then check the voltage output of the alternator.
If your driving consists of mostly low speed short trips you may want to limit the drain with headlights, fan, A/C, etc. kept off. - Dave

Pretty sure this is the LH2.2 and codes are very primitive. Sounds more like air mass meter failure. You need more trouble shooting before running out and throwing parts at it.

Will it rev up normal in neutral?

https://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EnginePerformanceSymptoms.htm
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Post Back. That's whats makes this forum work.

Sorry for late reply,

Recently, got it towed. Had problems starting it again. Had to be jumped.
Not sure what's going on with the brand new alternator (rebuilt) and newish battery. But upon getting it started and running it :

-runs badly, jumpy, lurching
-tow guy thinks spark plugs or wires may be bad or faulty
-tow guy also said the car wouldn't even crank if the timing belt was shot...news to me.


Immediate Actions:
-try to get OBD codes, however, last time I tried this, months ago, the darn thinkg wasn't lighting up at all
-tune up (new spark plugs, wires, rotor, and clean out throttle body and AMM...)
haven't done this in a while, got carried away this winter with a driveshaft assembly overhaul and probably should have done


THanks for the help

Marc

1989 has the LH 2.4 ignition. Running the diagnostics is probably a good starting point.

Even if your immediate problem is not the timing belt, 50 -80 thousand is at or past its useful life and probably should be replaced.

Thanks for replying,

Below is my earlier reply today: In response to you, I will defintely do the timing belt in the next 3 months. Its defintely time. Do you recommend doing the seals also?



My OBD hasn't been eworking well at all. I had her towed yesterday to get it out of the street. It needed a boost to start, which is weird that the brand new alternator and newish battery aren't holding a good cahrge. It ran jumpy and jerky and ultimately died.

The tow truck operator thought it might just need a tune-up and that the spark plugs are at fault. He said if the timing belt was shot, the car wouldn;t engine would n't crank at all....which I didn't know.

I admit, I am not sure the last time I did a tune-up, probably last summer or fall. I had some overhaul jobs that I had to perfomr on her over the winter, so a tune-up got lost in the shuffle.

NEXT THING: -tune up (new spark plugs, new spark plug wires, new rotor and clean out the throttle body and AMM.
-check codes again, but my OBD wasn't even lighting up last time I tried it.
-I need to find out if my car requires a 80 or 100 amp alternator, I got a 80 amp one cause it matched the electrical connections of the old one and bracket attachments, but I'm wondering if its not strong enough to keep the battery charged, not sure


Thanks Again

The B230 engine systems are pretty simple compared to today's stuff.
First thing, the tow truck operator is probably assuming it is an interference engine which would not crank with a broken belt due to the mechanical stoppages (and major valve/piston damage). This is not the case with this engine which is non-interference. The tow guy is a tow guy for a reason, not yet ready for prime time in a shop.
Poor running is traceable to numerous things which can be checked with minimal tools.

1-a small oil leak into the distributor will screw things up quite well, as old as the car is the oil seals into the dist may be shot, check that first along with the cap to see if there are any tell-tale arc points on the interior surface, those would indicate misfires

2- old spark plug wires can be arcing onto metal engine components or into each other, check them out on a dark night to see if there are any sparks visible (use a wooden stick to move them around, there will usually be a tell-tale surface anomaly where arcing is occuring if a bad wire is laying against a metal part such as the valve cover)

3-the power stage is a possibility, I always grab one or two at the pull-a-part to keep in the glove box, they rarely go bad but will cause havoc when they do

4-the AMM is not likely but possible, check it as said in an earlier post

5-If the timing belt is as old as you say and it has never been re-tensioned it may have skipped a tooth, recheck the timing marks on the gears (needs the upper belt cover off to do so) but beware, if the crank pulley has slipped (another old part issue on these engines) your crank position may not be accurate if using external timing marks of the pulley & lower belt cover

80 AMP is plenty for your vehicle if you did not add any heavy draw electronics to the car

Post back with your findings

I took this video originally a week or so ago before i changed out spark plugs and wires and tested without AMM.

Its pretty much the same as yesterday when i did all that stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saU8BI8_2do


ALSO: FORGIVE MY LANGUAGE IN THE VIDEO....I was not in the best of moods at the time. Sorry for the profanity.

Hi,

Well I did not see how it started up on the video but you got it running and it hitting on the cylinders! A good thing! It is knocking from a lean mixture and the computer making timing adjustments due to the knock sensor!
The computer is trying is best to get it in tune!
The trick is the engine should fire up straight away without intervention of you using the gas pedal.

The engine in this "present state" is not getting enough air and fuel mixture to get up to the speed of750 rpm to idle properly.
The idle air control valve is not working at all!

The throttle plate is and must be totally shut closed! Since, there is a lack of air, it appears to be like it should be!
The IAC all by itself, should be, adding auxiliary air to bring the idle up, to actually race the engine up and over 1000 RPMS when starting all by itself. Then it should idle back down immediately.
It apparently is not doing anything of that nature and tells me it has a big problem.

This can happen several ways!
The IAC is totally stuck or shot to pieces! IF the IAC has more than 80K or up to 150K be suspicious of a bad IAC.
Check that the IAC is plugged up and all the pins are seated properly.
I have read that on some earlier 80's cars the two cables can get switched because those IAC's have three pins. I have never checked this out because I'm the only one that ever touches any of my cars!
Your 1989 EZK computer IAC only has two pins because it has a spring loaded auto return position, so it only opens up by a signal.

The throttle switch can be bad or not adjusted correctly to the throttle plate and is not telling the computer to make it idle.
Verify that the switch is working by using an ohmmeter for continuity. The reading should show a change of state reading in either direction and upon the wide open throttle setting on two of the three pins.

The IAC can be tested if removed from the car. You can use a nine volt battery to trigger the vane inside to open by applying its current to those two pins.
I use nine volts to simulate the actual system voltage available when the engine is being cranked.
When the engine is cranked the valve is required to fully open up!

There is a diagnostic pin #6 that will test this and other things on the car, but you have to listen very carefully as it goes through a sequence. The IAC is best attended to personally with hands on attention for best results with several touches with battery current to know it works everytime smoothly.

Hope this helps give you a place to dig!

Phil

Phil,

Thanks for the advice.

Let me report back with my findings and see if this seems right.
Its confusing to me according to the Bentley Manual.

Took the AIC out and applied 12V to it.
-the valve rotates up into what I'm assuming is the open position, and then shuts back down into closed position and if keeping the voltage to it, it rotates open again in about a 2 second interval but snaps shut again in less than a second.

Is this the proper operation of the AIC? It doesn't explicitly state if this is the correct functioning or not.

I'm planning on testing the Throttle sensor next. I had a tough time with that a few years ago. Ended up having to take it to a mechanic to tweak it to work correctly that time, but I'll try again, if that ends up being the problem.

Either way, one step forward, two back and so on and so forth....

Hi,

I do not recommend using more than nine volts from a dry cell battery for operational simulation for observation.
I have my reasons and you are bringing up one of them.
A car’s wet cell battery has unlimited capacity to pump excessive current into the windings instantaneously.
It causes things to slam!
There’s a limit set by the ECU’s type of transistor and resistor capacity going to ground.
The transistor circuitry turns on and off very quickly and those pluses limit the amount of vane opening towards a spring.
There is a repetitive stopping point for the spring and a half turn motor rotation.
On the original IAC’s, before EZK, there was three pins and the polarity or the current was turned on or off to modulate the opening of the vane to the center pin.
This moved the motor back and forth without a finite low flow stopping point.

The spring design was put in as safety measure for engine control of lowering RPMs, fast, in case of a power loss Signal from only the ECU.
This has been born out on other car manufacturers that drive by wire for their issues at stop lights.

I have never held the current on the terminals, for any length of time, as it has no purpose to prove except to jam it one way or the other.
This thing has to move freely between extremes.

For all I know there could be a “thermal” cutout operating inside the IAC. This could cause the shutdown and resetting that you are describing.

I believe the Trev man from Canada is right that if the IAC or the AMM are perfectly fine you are still running too lean.
Any extra air behind the AMM is detrimental to the computers knowledge of what is going on.
It may mot be able to throw enough fuel at it if the fuel volume is low due to bad pumps, filters, FPR and so on.
The intake manifolds can get finicky with old gaskets or warpage on extreme age cases. It comes down to “What the heck! I’ll do it.”
There just some things you have got to leave up on the troubleshooting table, when it’s bouncing around like it is in the video.

The timing is close or it would not hit and run that slow without popping in the intake more often.
A quick check of putting the crankshaft up on zero and the rotor under number one plug wire is easy to do.
Then, you take the screw out of the plastic cover on the back top side do you can peel it back.
You want to look for the notch and dot to be in line up there within one tooth only.
If it’s a little off a tensioner adjustment might fix it.

This is the Simple stuff on these cars but only if you take a little time or patience and be stirring them together!

Phil

Ok, 12V too much. Copy. I did test the resistance after the battery test and its still reading 8 ohms, which is a good sign. And the IAC was moving freely between the open and close position. Or snapping back and forth.

Going to assume the IAC is ok and believe now that the busted EGR pipe is the culprit or a fuel line issue. But I need to do more tests and assessing.

WIll keep you posted, thanks for the advice. Every little bit brings me closer to not only solving my car's running problems, but also being a better shade tree mechanic. I appreciate the passing on of the knowledge on these 240s....trying to keep her running for ever if I can...


Thanks,

marc

By George I think you've got it!

I would add a thorough cleaning of the Throttle Body, Idle Air Control valve, and PCV system should be performed.
Dan

rjk,

Ok, where to begin......

1) Figured out battery issue and got car starting again
-runs extremely badly
-pressing gas pedal or manually pulling throttle wheel in engine bay does nothing; no response from engine
-wheezes and bucks and lurches
-engine moves side to side the worst I've ever seen...dangerously and definitely inoperable for driving (engine mounts replaced in last 4 months and appear sturdy)

2) Replaced Sparkplugs and sparkplug wires: NO CHANGE
-didn't replace rotor as it upon inspection it looked ok.

3) OBD codes
-in #2 slot (haha): no code...no response upon holding button down for alotted time:
not working; figuring a connection inside the OBD unit is shot or not making connection
-in #6 slot: still responding 1-1-1

4) My Prognosis: Either timing belt (based on your rec that the car would run so badly that it would be inoperable OR faulty fuel line . Either fuel pump is bad or fuel filter is clogged up terribly.

NOTE: Due to less than desirable circumstances of car storage at the moment, I didn't take off flywheel and pulley to get top timing belt case cover off. I did take out the bolts that I could get at for it and was able to look in and see that it looks ok, BUT I was not able to view it while running. I'd need to take off crankshaft pulley and belts and flywheel to fully take cover off. So timing belt is still on the table as a possible problem....

EGR: the EGR pipe that runs from EGR unit to exhaust manifold is broke at exhaust manifold. Ordered replacement part, but I don't think this would cause the car to be running sooo badly upon idle, I may be wrong. Also, I don't think it would cause the engine to not respong to the gas pedal being pressed....but who am I...


ALSO....started and ran with AMM out and the result was the same...probably not that is what I'm thinking.

OH, and don't forget to check the spark plugs they should all look the same, maybe a dirty light brownish color if everything is healthy, if not (oily, black, bright white, etc.) they will indicate internal problems